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As has been drilled home relentlessly, Zokes is not a customer.
So how can you resuscitate that which does not exist?
The problem is that they seem to have taken that attitude with the entire customer base, most of whom probably don’t have the patience to be bothered.
‘Still not a customer’
Please get it right and yes I read DNR as in the medical term, thought it was a bit harsh. 😂
As has been drilled home relentlessly, Zokes is not a customer.
As has been drilled home relentlessly, Zokes (et al) are the product, not the customers.
Christ, now I just feel dirty
Sorry, mate, but someone had to let you know sooner or later 🙁
Well, I guess we’re all in it together 😁
As has been drilled home relentlessly, Zokes (et al) are the product, not the customers.
Nah, We're the talent. 😉
We're getting pimped out for monetary gain by STW towers.
You may be talent PP - according to Mark I am the pub bore who never buys a round
@pp: That’s more like it 😂
💃🏼
according to Mark I am the pub bore who never buys a round
I think you'll find you provide a certain degree of entertainment value TJ, admittedly to a more niche audience.
You're more like a fetish 😉
😂😭😂
[b]chakaping[/b] wrote:
Seems like that’s not what’s annoying most people though, more the odd lack of comms from STW Towers and the sense that they’re refusing to “own” this shambles.
This for me is why I'm contemplating doing as suggested in the thread title. Though it's not so much the lack of comms, but as already mentioned by a few people the condescension and avoidance of the issue when there are any comms. I note that Mark's latest post is on a locked thread where he can't be engaged with - I presume being a delicate flower he doesn't like people disagreeing with him, but as a business owner that's something he ought to face up to. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think there's been a single post by Mark apologising, admitting this has gone a bit wrong or admitting they should have done it differently. No, all we've had are grandiose statements about how it has to be done this way (which is all a bit Captain Rum "opinion is divided") and that it will all be wonderful when it's finished. That or the most recent have been announcing that they're reinventing Google (on another thread DezB suggested he'd knocked up a forum in an afternoon - well it took all of 5 minutes to generate https://cse.google.com/cse/publicurl?cx=002353871167780190211:ffna6g0opko ).
Of course if there really is a good explanation behind rolling out untested software which we're all missing, then why not tell us? And no, the explanation given that the upgrade had to be done because of the existing mess of software and old version of the underlying software isn't an explanation of why it went live when it did. Nor is it an explanation of why fixing the obvious issues has been made a lower priority than reinventing Google. There have been numerous opportunities to take a different course, but it seems the STW forum upgrade process is like a supertanker - it's course shall not be diverted.
We know STW don’t like being told how they could do their job better, but I’d be happy to provide some basic pointers on online customer service if it might help.
There is so much expertise on this forum - expertise which is being ignored or effectively being told we're wrong.
Ewwwww!
If you give up your P do you still get access in the magazine app to the magazine issues that were released in your period of subscription?
Lolz @ PP
DezB suggested he’d knocked up a forum in an afternoon
In a lunchbreak, if you don't mind 😉
Pfft. In my day we'd knock out a forum in a tea break.
Are the people who are paying for a 'P' not customers? They are buying a service/product...if so, it is only the non-paying users who are not customers, but they are the ones that seem to generate a revenue just by using the forum (through ad revenue) - so not customers but a (potentially vital) source of income...
I'm in agreement, the (lack of) comms on this is the thing that really gets me - personal experience in my job, but if things aren't going to plan, the worse thing to do is keep quiet - you flag it and keep folk updated on what is being done to fix it.
I'm happy to remain being a source of revenue (although as an individual it will be a tiny amount), I think there is life in this, but things need to change to get a large number of regulars back on-side and interacting with the site the way they used to.
but they are the ones that seem to generate a revenue just by using the forum (through ad revenue)
I wonder how much browsing a non-P would need to do in order to generate the equivalent of a P's £1.49 a month? Do they get any revenue for ad views or only on click through? Must be tiny fractions of a penny.
(oh and P's may generate ad revenue as usually they at least one set of ad's before they get a chance to log in... every time 😉 )
>Pfft. In my day we’d knock out a forum in a tea break.
You could start a sub Reddit in half a tea break!
I am letting my subscription lapse this May
I dont spend any time reading the mag anymore and I wont be bothering paying for P or haunting this place much longer
Just need to find another place to waste a bit time in that has a slightly better user experience
Are the people who are paying for a ‘P’ not customers?
Sure. But that's not who we're talking about. If you're not a subscriber and use ad-blocking software then you're not a customer.
For a few folk it's akin to me shoplifting a cake from ASDA, then going to customer services to complain that the icing was off, then acting all surprised and offended when the staff get a bit snippy because I was going to actually buy a cake tomorrow but now I'm not.
and P’s may generate ad revenue as usually they at least one set of ad’s before they get a chance to log in… every time
There are no adverts on the login page.
If you bookmark http://singletrackworld.com/wp-login.php?redirect_to=forum/forum/ it'll take you to the forum if you're logged in and the login page if you aren't.
For a few folk it’s akin to me shoplifting a cake from ASDA, then going to customer services to complain that the icing was off, then acting all surprised and offended when the staff get a bit snippy because I was going to actually buy a cake tomorrow but now I’m not.
Nice analogy....except that, as the content providers of the forum, we're the ones that provided the ingredients, baked the cakes and voluntarily stocked the shelves.
In this analogy STW are providing the shelves in exchange for manning the tills and collecting the cash.
Currently, the aisles are blocked, some shelves are missing and some are broken.
Tills are still working though.
And someone has pinched a [s]cake.[/s] loaf 🤔
Qu'ils mangent de la brioche...
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Cougar
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Are the people who are paying for a ‘P’ not customers?Sure. But that’s not who we’re talking about. If you’re not a subscriber and use ad-blocking software then you’re not a customer.
For a few folk it’s akin to me shoplifting a cake from ASDA, then going to customer services to complain that the icing was off, then acting all surprised and offended when the staff get a bit snippy because I was going to actually buy a cake tomorrow but now I’m not.
I'm a paying customer. I'm not shoplifting. Please don't try to conflate unhappy customers with shoplifters.
Thanks.
or....going into ASDA to choose a cake, and being abused by sarcastic, condescending staff who think they know everything, because you haven't actually bought anything yet?
These staff don't actually get paid or anything, they just feel that doing the bosses dirty work gives them a position of power in the community, because there certainly isn't another logical/believable reason for it!
🙂
Still not a cake buyer.
Mange tout Captain, mange tout.
If you’re not a subscriber and use ad-blocking software then you’re not a customer.
Right, lets clear this up once and for all.
1) I used to subscribe to the mag. When I didn't I bought it frequently enough that I might as well have done.
2) I began using the aforementioned plug-in to see if it was the ads slowing down my computer at home. I think you know the answer to that one...
3) When issues of inappropriate popups first occurred, funnily enough the aforementioned plug-in got enabled quicksmart at work also.
4) At some point between 2 & 3, Mark decided to wade in with both feet, and treated me in a manner which would make most people think twice about handing over their hard-earned to them. You and Drac are equally happy to have a sly dig here and there too.
So there you have it. I definitely was a customer as a subscriber and buyer of the mag. If the website didn't have so many issues with intrusive, inappropriate or resource hungry ads i'd still happily view them and click through if they were selling anything I wanted (e.g. CRC). If Mark hadn't been an arse about it I'd have had an overseas subscription years ago.
BTW If anyone is actually going to go and get some cake I'll have a slice of Victoria Sponge.
Not paying for it though
Not paying for it though
You don't need to pay for the cake. The cake's free.
You just have to look at all the adverts or buy special STW sunglasses available at the till.
Wearing your own sunglasses or, god forbid, shutting your eyes is considered a bit naughty.
I always thought the cake was a lie?
(Haven't a clue how to insert a GIF these days so here's a link instead.)
So, if the cake is free, but walking into ADSA to buy the cake makes ASDA money, do I get to complain if they use raspberry rather than strawberry jam, and the guy behind the fish counter is an asshat?
Or do I need to start shopping at Tesco?
You can't buy anything from STW at the minute - the shop is borked too! 🙂
Zokes - I am the same as you pretty much
I did try and become a P last year but unless I did a direct debit they weren’t interested, didn’t seem bothered about taking my money and I’m glad that effort didn’t succeed now
On my work PC’s the ads don’t show - they do on other sites but our work setup just hates STW.
I’m not at all surprised the upgrade has been a nightmare, this site has been an old relic for years and when they employed people recently they were offering a pittance.
Don’t even think the powers that be care about the user experience, they certainly don’t care about any sort of customer service. If something big isn’t done very soon it’ll get worse and worse until people move elsewhere. Then one day there will be a post explaining that the forum or whole site is shutting down, blaming everyone but themselves.
[awaits banhammer]
You’re not supposed to have the shades Jamie.
In 6 months time will this place be like Bikemagic?
I am sure they do care and are very unhappy about the situation as this forum provides a lot of revenue. Equally the window to get it sorted is not infinite and its much harder to gain a good reputation than lose it.
To me this place is more like a symbiosis like lichen. STW is the fungi providing the structure and shelter, We are the algae providing the food. Neither will be as successful without the other.
/Waits for the mushroom reference.
TBH i think its all getting a bit much.
yes its not working.
yes its not the end of the world.
yes the communication is very poor.
I hope its getting fixed?
I hope its not done irreparable damage?
It is getting fixed but there are other issues they are dealing with too not just for the format of the forum.
Cougar, your link to the log in page is great at the beginning of a session.
Unfortunately though I get logged out mid session, sometimes halfway through writing a post. The first I know about it is when the page loads very very slowly and it's all ads. Then it's go and put the kettle on until the log on button loads.
Apart from you and Drac, no one from STW has even acknowledged the issue, let alone fixed it.
Is that sill happening borielbrus?
There was a post a while ago (talking maybe six months) from Cougar/Drac/the powers that be that the forum session ID which is basically what keeps you logged in has a maximum life of two weeks. I get logged out at about that frequency.
Remember the session ID is specific to each computer/browser so if you log in at work then that's a different session ID to logging in on your phone/tablet or home computer. So you might be getting logged out multiple times but only once per device per fortnight.
I would be interested to know how the malware and porn redirects fit into the ASDA cake analogy. I suppose you could think of it like having two ranges of cakes, a Premier range and a Value range. The Value range is like the Premier range, but made in a dirty factory without the basic hygiene controls. Every so often you find that your Value cake contained the remains of a dead mouse and you've just taken a bite of something which may put you in hospital.
As for the distinction between Premier and non-Premier users, both generate content which is what attracts other users and is the lifeblood of the forum. It's only my own vague impression, but it seems to me that the most interesting, humorous and/or engaging posts are on balance more likely to come from non-Premier users (maybe that's just my own bias, and I certainly don't include myself in that group, but if someone is paying for the privilege of being a Premier member, maybe that affects their perception of their own posts and of their value and how they post).
Incidentally, I've seen it said often that STW threads frequently appear quite highly on Google search results (and for a very diverse range of subjects). I presume therefore that some significant ad revenue is generated by visits from non-forum members as a result of those high search result rankings. A few days ago I tried to use Google (i.e. site:singletrackworld.com + search terms) to find an old thread, but without success, even though I am able to find the thread by trawling through my own posts on STW and then using the # link to get to the thread . I suspect that the update of the forum has resulted in some (many? most?) threads no longer being picked up in Google searches. If so that might have significant implications for ad revenue.
I suppose you could think of it like having two ranges of cakes, a Premier range and a Value range
There's a third type of cake.
The Fun Sponge 😉
oh well played sir.
FWIW I had to log in AGAIN to post that.
It is getting fixed but there are other issues they are dealing with too not just for the format of the forum
It's good of you to provide that update, but it shouldn't have to come from you in the first place, and I don't see why it has to be so cryptic.
I really fancy some squirty cream. It was the pancake thread that got me thinking about it, but this cake thing is only making it worse.
Yes, my laptop has stayed logged in for ages - well over a month I think. Phone and tablet is random, sometimes several times a day, sometimes not for several days. Certainly not a regular once a fortnight thing.
Have just renewed my P. I have faith (optimism) that this place will continue to thrive. Also the alternative is FaceAche, and that place is a LOT more sinister and corporate, not to mention shit, and I don’t want to go back to it...
It's like going to the supermarket, choosing a nice looking cake, going to the checkout, paying for it, and then going home. Then, when you're sitting down with your friends, half-way through eating your cake, the supermarket management burst in, and stick their fingers into the cake and wipe it on your walls, and then accuse you of being ungrateful.
Since the prickly subject of the "logging out" issue has reared up again (I promise that this will be the last time I say anything on the subject) .. I have been logged in now on an Aus Surfing Website forum for well over a year and never ever been logged out....(as an example, I visit it daily as I do here)
Honestly, and that's my t'ing with STW..
It's claimed that a "routine" not controlled by STW logs you out every couple of weeks on what ever device you are on.. and I simply don't believe that excuse. STW must control the issue but we've been told on multiple occasions that it's simply not their fault or in their control.. and I simply don't believe em'. It don't a'ppen anywhere else...
But, I mentioned on a number of occasions now, that I simply resign myself to the fact that we get booted out of here so when the user logs back in again it's logged as a "new user"/"impression"/"visit" etc.. and the stats go up.. Which is pretty galling TBH.
'but it seems to me that the most interesting, humorous and/or engaging posts are on balance more likely to come from non-Premier users (maybe that’s just my own bias, and I certainly don’t include myself in that group, but if someone is paying for the privilege of being a Premier member, maybe that affects their perception of their own posts and of their value and how they post).'
Just to say that I have a 'P', but being a premier member is nothing to do with the perception of the importance of the nonsense I post on here. Or anything to do with the forum at all. It's simply because I subscribe to the magazine. No other reason. I have to say I completely ignore if others are premier members or not.
I've never noticed anyone else read anything into it? It might be just you. 🙂
I'm a bit critical of ST at times but I have to say I'm not really feeling the hate for the forum at the moment.
I like the better way (for me anyway) that the forum works on an iPad Mini. It took me a few goes to get used to posting images and video but overall although my forum useage has dropped somewhat the only downside I'm really seeing is less content on here.
And it is the content on the forum I come here for, hence my keeping my digital sub. I'm issues will be resolved as Mark needs the income to keep the staff paid and to fund his e-bike habit.
@bikebouy If you are on Chrome then you can see when the session that keeps you logged in will end. Click on the three dots in a column at the right hand end of the toolbar, select "Settings". At the bottom of the tab that appears click on "Show Advanced Settings". The first section is entitled "Privacy" and under that are two buttons, click on the left hand one - "Content Settings", in the dialog box that appears, click "All cookies and site data". There's a search box in the top right of this dialog box, type "singletrackworld" (without the quotes) into that and you should get one hit.
Click on it and it will expand showing all the cookies that STW store in your browser. At least one of these will have "logged" or "sec" in its name. Click on one of these and you'll be shown when you'll be logged out. In my case on this computer I have these values:
Created: Friday, 2 February 2018 at 08:46:38
Expires: Friday, 16 February 2018 at 20:46:38
So I'll need to sign in again sometime Friday night. I've also got Firefox running on this computer and the expiry date for the equivalent session cookie is:
Tue 27 Feb 2018 02:08:17 GMT
I'll have a different expiry time on my machine at home.
Edited to get rid of the forum adding rogue HTML tags.
It’s claimed that a “routine” not controlled by STW logs you out every couple of weeks on what ever device you are on.
By whom? No-one's ever claimed that ever. The session cookie lasts for a fortnight, or at least it did on the previous software. What was "out of their control" was those who claimed to be logged out multiple times a day, STW were unable to replicate the issue.
We did eventually track down a glitch in the way cookies were being written (ironically in the login page I linked to earlier), though I suppose that's academic now. I must test the new version at some point.
when the user logs back in again it’s logged as a “new user”/”impression”/”visit” etc.. and the stats go up.. Which is pretty galling TBH.
I've no idea whether that's the case or not, so I'm absolutely certain that you don't. It sounds an utterly ludicrous notion to me though and I'd be highly surprised if that's the case.
I'm not a Wordpress expert but a quick bit of searching gives this nugget:
The default WordPress behavior for logging a user out is to make a login session cookie that expires in 48 hours or when the browser is closed. If the “Remember Me” box is checked, WordPress will give you 14 days before forcing you to authenticate again.
Now there are plugins that let WP admins extend this but it would seem that they haven't been installed.
Hmmm, I certainly have to log in more frequently than I used to.
Not bothered as I only use the forum from the safety of my double bagged laptop which I guess is quicker and easier to re-log in on than a smartphone or tablet.
The default WordPress behavior for logging a user out is to make a login session cookie that expires in 48 hours or when the browser is closed. If the “Remember Me” box is checked, WordPress will give you 14 days before forcing you to authenticate again.
From memory, the behaviour on the old forum was:
If "remember me" is ticked, you get a persistent cookie which lasts for 14 days.
If it is not ticked then instead you get a session cookie which lasts until you close the window.
... in theory, at any rate. Chrome does something froody with session cookies which makes them persist beyond the life of the window, you'd to either restart your browser or PC to properly reset them, I can't remember which.
The glitch I discovered with the patient help of a couple of other forum users occurred on the login page. If you clicked the redirecting link I posted earlier and were already logged in, it overwrote the persistent cookie with a temporary one. I wasn't affected even though I use that link all the time because I very rarely close down a browser so the cookie was continually being refreshed.
There may well have been something else that we never got to the bottom of too of course, I doubt this scenario applied to everyone who was affected.
[b]tjagain[/b] wrote:
I am sure they do care and are very unhappy about the situation as this forum provides a lot of revenue. Equally the window to get it sorted is not infinite and its much harder to gain a good reputation than lose it
They were told there was an issue right after the upgrade happened - I'm generously assuming here they expected the untested system to work so this was a surprise, rather than that they knew it was broken and JFDI instruction was issued despite that. At which point they could have followed the advice given by the professional devs on here and backed out the change for further testing rather than ploughing on courageously*. They've been told time and time again that this isn't the way to do a software upgrade. However the reaction to that appears to be a head/sand interface. They might care about all the negative sentiment on here, but it seems they don't care sufficiently, don't appreciate how real an issue it is and/or have trouble prioritising.
[b]Drac[/b] wrote:
It is getting fixed but there are other issues they are dealing with too not just for the format of the forum.
This is one of the big issues right here. Trouble prioritising. You fix the issues you already have first. You don't change too many things at once to limit the number of issues you have - you manage the transition via intermediate stages if necessary. Oh, and if you really are forced to change a lot of things at once you do a [b]lot[/b] of testing.
*see Yes Minister
For information, yes I am still using the forum, I'm still quoting and formatting text, but that's only with the aid of the extension I've helped to develop and typing codes in by hand. I still have no buttons, no working preview and can only use smileys by typing the codes I remember. The list of posts you've made still isn't as useful as it was. It's a pain. Of course it's a double edged sword - at least not having the buttons means the new scripts aren't automatically adding lots of gobbledegook when I quote 😆
Heh, I've just tested it and that glitch is still there. Marvellous.
[b]Cougar[/b] wrote:
Heh, I’ve just tested it and that glitch is still there. Marvellous.
Well it is a relief to know they've not got rid of all the old functionality in the upgrade 😆
Trouble prioritising.
It's always very simple when you're on the outside looking in, isn't it. STW's perception management is probably a greater failing.
Well as I pointed out, they're the ones who have generated lots of other issues for themselves at the same time as the forum needing fixing. I'm sure other things are considered more important, though correct prioritisation includes recognising what is immediately important to the business.
Cougar - makes no f*** difference whether you close a window or leave it permanently open on a device.
It logs you out whenever it feels like it.
Five times today on iPhone on safari.
Twice on the laptop.
Oh and an interesting glitch - iPhone, safari “return” gives a new line BUT does not capitalise the first letter anymore.
see!
you have to manually add it.
Like this.
And seriously?
42s to load that reply above on a military system with a download of over 100mb/s is ridiculous.
Don’t have a pop at me Cougar, I appreciate your point but you are wrong. Just accept that we get, and have been, logged out constantly over the years, and admit that there are forums out there that once you click “remember me” it actually does it’s job and you remain logged in.
We had this conversation last year, and it has remained to this day the same issues.. and I am not the only one who got cheesed off about it.
I said last year the reason for rescinding my P and it purely fell down to the point of the constant log in/out issues the site has, and continues to have.
Bless you for backing yourself up, and STW, but the issue remains and I’m not sorry TBH that you or you’re DEV Team can’t fix it because as we are fully aware there does seem to be a lack of interest around that particular issue.
And it remains, and no doubt will remain.
So, backfooted remarks pass right on over my shoulder as they did last year when the issue was poo-poo’d. It’s a minor inconvenience to you and a workaround handed out.. incidentally admitting the issue exists.. and we continue to this day and tempers fray.
Yet, I’ve gotten used to it. I have accepted that being logged out, to have to log back in again, is all part of the user experience we engage in whilst on here.
And as I said I promised I’d not bring it up, but being provoked at this particular time during the initiation stage of a rollout seems fair point to make to see if during the log of issues you have.. perhaps it’s one you may be able to fix..
Seems a reasonable request, one for the book of work the Devs have to work through.
No need to get snarky, just accept the issue.
If these things are 'non-issues', why would they ask you to promise to not bring them up?
Yeah, you didn’t read the post did you.
Not convinced you read mine either? Seems like you thought I was having a pop. I wasn't.
This by TJ
</span><span style="color: #444444; font-size: 16px;">I am sure they do care and are very unhappy about the situation as this forum provides a lot of revenue. Equally the window to get it sorted is not infinite and its much harder to gain a good reputation than lose it.
Is the most important comment here. It's been weeks now since the 'upgrade' and time is slowly running out. Right now this is how not to do crisis management.
Christ it is virtually impossible to post on here using Android. Far, far worse than Windows desktop.
Don’t have a pop at me Cougar, I appreciate your point but you are wrong.
I'm honestly not having a pop, sorry if it came across that way. I'm not wrong though, you're conflating two issues.
1) Being logged out every two weeks is by design, no-one has ever said otherwise (or if they did it was a bloody long time ago and from a point of ignorance).
2) Being logged out more often than that has proven to be an elusive problem because, as I've said time and again, no-one who is in a position to fix it had ever been able to replicate the issue. It's some weird mix of software client and usage behaviour that's upsetting the forum somehow.
Hopefully once the current issues are resolved they might be able to revisit this. As I understand it one of the big problems with the old forum was maintenance, making any change was high risk - the butterfly effect I guess - so there was a reluctance to do this. Presumably these barriers should no longer be such a problem going forward.
Just briefly browsed this thread (life's too short to read all that, apologies if my assumptions that pages 2 through 5 are largely the same as 1 and 6 is off) and you know what? I am tempted to ditch the P, although I'll have to buy one first in order to ditch it, but I might, because it would be worth it for me to make a pointless, empty gesture that literally nobody will give half a shit about.
So, just to add my weight to what so many are doubtless thinking - is it worth persisting with a forum that contains so much great stuff from some interesting people when it is so hard to cope with all this shit?
Is it really worth it when the place is hobbled by containing so many sanctimonious, self-righteous, entitled, self-centred, perspective-free, over-reacting, childish tossers? I'm not sure how much longer I can stick with it, to be honest. If they don't take action, and fast, this place is done for.
this is how not to do crisis management
With respect (that's a lie, to be fair) if there being a few formatting wobbles on a chat forum falls under your definition of a "crisis" then, well, words ****ing fail me.
why would they ask you to promise to not bring them up?
I don't recall such a thing ever happening. BB said (just now) that he promised not to bring it up, not that he was asked to do so.