[Closed] Anyone fancy offering a legal moral opinion on this?

"Just spoke to our HR bods. They've said a) that's bloody weird and b) talk to ACAS."

Well, what the sweet baby Jesus would a bunch of HR people know about it? They're qualified to speak about neither legal nor ethical matters.

unreasonable to expect that would be an ongoing payment every time she works until the heat death of the universe

This is the same as IT contracting. You work for £x per hour, and the agency usually gets like 20% of that. There's an initial contract, but that often gets renewed a lot - ie new contracts - and they contain the same 20%. So an agency can collect something like £50k over several years for making a few phone calls.

They have similar clauses to prevent the client not renewing the contract and then employing the contractor directly - but word on the street is that they never sue for breach of contract, because they don't want a bad rep. It happens a fair bit - the re-employing thing.

However, in your case - how is the agency ever going to know if you re-employ her?

It's both immoral and taking the piss.

Well it certainly is both immoral and taking the piss to expect someone to pay £2.50 an hour for years because of what was in essence probably no more than a one-off telephone answering service.

The UK needs to increase productivity, not pay people taking the piss for doing **** all.

I think the problem with these sort of contracts from the consumers perspective is the payment method (paying the agent by dd and paying the cleaner directly on the day). It just highlights how much the agency is getting and how much the cleaner is getting. If the agency just charge the £25 a session or whatever and at their end paid the cleaner their cut from that the consumer would put up with it more easily. There is probably a tax or culpability reason.

Long term they appear to do sod all for their money - if they at least came and did an inspection of the cleaners work or even rang up the client once in a while to get feedback etc they would appear to have a use. The ones I've used did none of that.

Moly, don't forget, without those agencies IT contracts would be more difficult to find. Though the agencies are a PIA, most reasonable size orgs use them. I wouldn't advocate screwing them on that basis ... I know this is a different industry but still...

what was in essence probably no more than a one-off telephone answering service.

How do you know what they did? It's easy to diminish other peoples efforts isn't it? 'It's just knocking bits of wood together/soldering pipes/reading books/answering the phone/programming computers' etc....

It doesn't matter what they did, the OP agreed to have them help him and signed a contract binding both parties. No wonder the Uk's in a mess if people go around reneging on their commitments all the time...

Given that that we pay cash in hand direct to the cleaner

Sounds like money laundering to me.

I'm not sure as the contractor analogy is valid.

A contractor could expect an agency to provide contracts as an ongoing concern, handle financial details, provide support and generally act like an employer. Hence them getting a cut of your wage. It doesn't sound like that's what's happening here; rather, they've gone "yeah, we know someone" and then walked away.

Do you really think the agency will sue you for breach of contract over a single cleaner?

How do you know what they did?

Because I know what the work of a domestic cleaner involves. I also know that an agency doesn't need to be paid £2.50 an hour for several years to recoup the cost of an advert and answering a phone call, even if you allow for a responsible profit.

I'm glad it was you who brought up taking the piss 🙂

they've gone "yeah, we know someone" and then walked away

It's a cif, they vanished in a flash.

[i]Because I know what the work of a domestic cleaner involves[/i]

He isn't paying the agency for cleaning, but to get him a Cleaner - and to continue to ensure he's got a Cleaner.

He isn't paying the agency for cleaning, but to get him a Cleaner

Yes I am aware of that. And it is precisely because "I know what the work of a domestic cleaner involves" that I am also aware of what that is likely to involve, ie, placing an advert/answering a phone call.

If it involves much more than that then I would suggest they are probably doing it wrong.

Well it's clear from this who you'd trust to make good a commitment and who you wouldn't. Why do people think its acceptable to enter into a contract and then arbitrarily decide 'it's not fair' (wah wah)?

If you don't like the terms, don't do the business or negotiate different terms. You have a choice, last time I looked it wasn't mandatory to use an agency to employ a cleaner. Go and get your own. If you've agreed to pay someone to do this for you, pay them until you determine the agreement or negotiate new terms. You can't complain after the event if you had full prior knowledge of their fees and you signed up to them.

Tsssk, shyster's 😀

If you don't like the terms, don't do the business or negotiate different terms.

Or just ignore them. If we are looking at this from a moral/taking the piss perspective.

So it's OK to just go around ignoring things we've all committed to? Your employer ignoring the commitment to pay you on time each month? Your children not to bully or beat up other kids? Your wife not to shag the milkman? Where do we stop?

Yeah I know, silly examples but if you can't keep your word, how can you expect anyone else who has dealings with you to?

The agency do two things, find a cleaner and attempt to get a temporary replacement when that cleaner is off. They have already done the first part (a long time ago) and they failed at the second part by sending a replacement round who appeared to not do any thing.

There is no question about ending thecontract, that will happen with appropriate formalities and notice period. The question is about whether or not to then employ the cleaner again, on a higher hourly rate.

Are you over 12 months? If so give notice and reemploy direct. The terms you've stated here allow for that. If not 12 months, reach an agreement with the agency (e.g. 1 weeks fees as compensation). You're in a strong position as they know you could just ignore them. You could but what happens when this cleaner moves on?

[quote=boblo ]It doesn't matter what they did, the OP agreed to have them help him and signed a contract binding both parties. No wonder the Uk's in a mess if people go around reneging on their commitments all the time...

Ah, but I think with the help of this thread, the OP has moved on from breaking his contract with the agency. I suspect he will instead simply terminate the contract, and allow his wife to take on responsibility for employing cleaners. I'm assuming she knows of a good one?

Praps he should just allow his wife to take on the responsibility for the cleaning? I can't understand why she's not doing it anyway.... 😉

Yep, I could get Nancy to do it and offer her the £2.50 per hour as a reward. Good call.

The thing is, I cannot see how this counts as shafting the agency. I will cease contract with them anyway, whether or not I continue to use the cleaner. They are not going to continue getting more money from me after a notice period. The cleaner does not want any more work from them so she is no longer an asset to them. If I was to abide by the terms and not remploy the current cleaner then I would just advertise and get another local cleaner, not sure how that benefits either the agency, the cleaner or me. It certainly doesn't disadvantage the agency as they have aleady lost their income.

So talk to them if it's so good for everyone...

The terms you've stated here allow for that

I think you've misread the OP. Either that or I have.

I cannot remploy her for 12 months after the contract has ended, how long the contract is in place is irrelevant. That is how I understand it.

That's me then. I just caught the '12 months' not the 'post contract end' bit.

You've two choice's: negotiate an elegant end to the arrangement leaving the door open or say bolleaux to the agency and ride roughshod over the deal you've a struck with them. I doubt they'd do anything (though you can't be certain) so let your conscience be your guide...

So it's OK to just go around ignoring things we've all committed to?...Your wife not to shag the milkman?Where do we stop?

3 options -

A- negotiate a release
B- as others have said get the wife to employ her instead.
3 - Just tell the agency you don't want to use them anymore and make a seperate arrangement with the cleaner.

I'd go option 3 - noone will ever find out and there is no way they will ever take legal action over it even if they did. Worst case scenario if they found out would be to revert to option A retrospectively.

[i]I'd go option 3 - noone will ever find out and there is no way they will ever take legal action over it even if they did. Worst case scenario if they found out would be to revert to option A retrospectively. [/i]

Except FS lives in the Borders, and everyone not only knows everyone but is also related 🙂

Apart from anything I'd at least want to know where all the bloody milk he should have been delivering had gone.

[img] [/img]

[i]She said she'd like to bathe in milk, he said, "All right, sweetheart,"
And when he'd finished work one night he loaded up his cart.
He said, "D'you want it pasturize? 'Cause pasturize is best,"
She says, "Ernie, I'll be happy if it comes up to my chest."

That tickled old Ernie.[/i]

Unfortunately that is too true BR, although in this case the cleaner is relatively new to the area so not too ingrained in the community yet.

Where in Poland is she from? 🙂

Is the agency providing insurance? What if this cleaner smashes that Ming vase or burns the house down?