Here goes. I was listenihng to R4 this morning and heard the report on disquiet within the Labour Party over the speed with which Corbyn is dealing with alleged anti-semites in his party.
Now, obviously I'm aware of the origins and the reasons put forward for anti-semitism in WW2 Facist Germany and that some people are ill disposed towards the Israelis over their treatment of Palestinians in more recent times.
The hole in my knowledge is why Jewish people have been villified throughout history (for hundreds of years at least) in all forms of artistic endeavour and at all levels of society - from what I can gather it seems to have the excepted cultural position.
Apologies if this is an obvious or ignorant question but I'm no historian and just want to know.
iirc they ended up - somehow - as the main money lenders, bailing out kings and churches. When said kings and churches couldn't pay back, they turned on the Jews.
I believe that one of the first anti-Jewish "pogroms" was led by King John against the Jewish moneylenders in Lincoln, but I may have my facts muddled there.
They touched on this on a BBC4 show last night. Ancient Greeks had a beef with the jews which resulted in genocidal slaughter.
They don't help themselves by hoarding all the gold and mutilating little boys penises.
They are different.
[url= https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_deicide ]There is a history of the Christian churches encouraging hatred because the jewish people were deliberately not buying the right type of religion[/url].
[url= https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_England_in_the_Middle_Ages#Jewish_contribution_to_the_English_economy ]Things weren't helped IIRC in that in some cases the lending of money for interest was considered un-christian and it wasn't a problem for those of the jewish faith - so those jews who lent money did well for themselves and jealously encouraged hatred.[/url]
There's also the small matter of the Catholic church blaming the Jews for betraying and killing their Christ, omitting, of course, that Christ was a Jew himself.
"They don't help themselves by hoarding all the gold and mutilating little boys penises."
And here is a perfect example of why anti-Semitism is still, in the 21st century, following one of the worst genocidal holocausts in history, a massive problem.
The other issue is that every time anyone complains about Israel killing Palestinians, they just respond with he / she is an Anti-Semitic. So the whole subject is rather complex...
Yes, BBC4 had very good programme about the history of Jerusalem last night
I suppose combination of factors as to why they have got so much stick, certainly implied last night that culture was strengthened the more persecuted they were, and the more insular they became, which is a viscous circle, similar to attitudes towards Roma, Irish Travellers etc
possibly the oldest montheistic religion in an area that helped shape modern humans outside africa and acted as a conduit between africa and europe, its a hotly contested region, we started farming there, building cities and have spent a long time doing horrible things to each other in that part of the world
The first actions in the first crusade were pogroms against the jews in Germany and eastern Europe
I'll be interested to follow this. I also have no formal knowledge of the how and why we got to where we are now with regards to the Jewish religion.
I sometimes wonder if the Anti Semitism card is played rather like the "race card" is sometimes perceived to be played. (But maybe this is just my ignorance on the subject)
Having spent the last 8 years in South Africa I can tell you first hand how hard it is to criticize a politician (for instance) without being labeled either a racist, an apartheid sympathizer or both.
In the interests of balance, if you complain about Palestinians killing Israelis you are the running dog of the imperialist Zionist war mongering machine.
It really is very complex.
So many wrongs, over so many thousands of years, coming nowhere near making a right.
The other issue is that every time anyone complains about Israel killing Palestinians, they just respond with he / she is an Anti-Semitic.
Apparantly [url= http://www.theguardian.com/world/2003/nov/29/comment ]Anti-Zionism is anti-semitism[/url] ! 🙄
Having spent the last 8 years in South Africa I can tell you first hand how hard it is to criticize a politician (for instance) without being labeled either a racist, an apartheid sympathizer or both
I have an aunt and uncle in South Africa, MrsMC has an aunt and uncle in Israel. We tend not bring it up at the liberal hand wringing Guardianista dinner parties that we [s]never[/s] get invited to....
following one of the (worst) [i]most publicized[/i] genocidal holocausts in history
Is there a word for how Native Americans are treated?
The other issue is that every time anyone complains about Israel killing Palestinians, they just respond with he / she is an Anti-Semitic. So the whole subject is rather complex...
Agreed - it does appear that if you offer the opinion that Israel is not whiter than white in its behaviour in the troubles of the last 60 years you are branded an antisemite. I can't see that any current labour politician has done more than that.
I think you mean "First Nation".
My gut feeling is that most of the current Anti-Semitic accusations being thrown at the Labour party are more to do with it's stance towards the Israel / Palestine conflict than any actual anti-Semiticism.
I think you mean "First Nation"
Yep, Canada too:
And here is a perfect example of why anti-Semitism is still, in the 21st century, following one of the worst genocidal holocausts in history, a massive problem.
Its a crudely written point but i'm not sure its actually racist. one could make the point considerably better
We have a strange situation as we do still have anti semitism. We also have some Jewish organisations hiding behind this to avoid justifying what is happening " in their name". The holocaust was horrific but that fact does not mean we should turn a blind eye to what Israel does. Many Jews are just blindly loyal to it as if a Jewish state is more important than doing the right thing. I think it says something terrible about humanity [ possibly religion to] that the most persecuted race on earth get a homeland and then become one of the most [ certainly liberal western democracy] persecutors on the planet
There is no place for anti semitism not for shouting it every time someone criticises Israel
OP your issue was covered above as to why the hatred - they lent the money and were wealthy whilst worshipping thw ring god.
OP your issue was covered above as to why the hatred - they lent the money and were wealthy whilst worshipping thw ring god.
It's the same God.
Thank you all, now before this thread (quite rightly) veers off at a tangent, can anyone tell me the name of the BBC4 programme for a bit of catch up tonight?
Cheers.
Same God, but at a higher interest rate.
Driving through Prestwich (Manchesters kosher moat) this morning I can only conclude that others are just jealous of their fantastic hats
Some would say posting these pictures from Gaza is anti semitic:
[img] 
[/img]
[img] 
[/img]
Don't get me wrong, I think prejudice of any sort is wrong, however, all too often the word anti-semitic is used as a shield for some very dark activity.
I find the difference between how Jews and Muslims are treated by the press very disconcerting.
Is there any studies available on how often 'Anti-Semitic' is used vs 'Islamophobia'?
Absolutely fair to say that some people invoke anti-semitism as a catch-all defence regards anything to do with the 'Palestine question'
Also fair to say that some people use the Palestine issue as a defence against a deeper underlying anti semitism.
Also worth reading up on the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem: http://www.timesofisrael.com/full-official-record-what-the-mufti-said-to-hitler/
I'm really concerned about my reaction to my medication. Junkyard is making a lot more sense to me these days.
They were\are different, any other explanation is just muddying the issue.
Human beings are sh!t and anything that is not part of the tribe is to be cast out and blamed for all the things that are going wrong.
Jews, Muslims, Catholic Christians, Protestant Christians, Scots, English, Welsh, European, Conservative Tax Dodgers, Benefit Scrounging Scum, Eastern Europeans, Syrian Migrants, African Migrants, Skinheads, Long haired people, people with tattoos, people who dress funny, people who do weird sex things, people who like 650b wheels ....
List just goes on and on. Anytime anyone is having a run of bad luck, if there is a "them" that can be blamed then people will blame "them".
As for the Labour Party, I would hope that they have regulations about any discrimination not just anti-Semitic. I may live in an idealistic world but I don't think any kind of discrimination is more important than any other.
Bloody dangerous stuff this prejudice...
[img] 
[/img]
Gen Wesley Clark Reveals US Plan To Invade Iraq, Syria, Lebanon, Lybia, Somalia, Sudan, And Iran:
[img] 
[/img]
[url= http://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/.premium-1.611001 ]
U.S. Military Aid to Israel Exceeds $100 Billion[/url]
[img] 
?2015[/img]
[img] 
?2015[/img]
[img] 
[/img]
[img] 
[/img]
[img] 
[/img]
[img] 
[/img]
[img] 
[/img]
[img] 
[/img]
Why doesn't ISIS attack Israel anyhoo?
[i]
I have an aunt and uncle in South Africa, MrsMC has an aunt and uncle in Israel. We tend not bring it up at the liberal hand wringing Guardianista dinner parties that we never get invited to....[/i]
In SA the issue is so huge and effects everybody everyday (government policy towards black owned business etc etc) that is it impossible to avoid.
clodhopper
"They don't help themselves by hoarding all the gold and mutilating little boys penises."And here is a perfect example of why anti-Semitism is still, in the 21st century, following one of the worst genocidal holocausts in history, a massive problem.
And today's award for self righteous internet crusader goes to.....
As regards:
I find the difference between how Jews and Muslims are treated by the press very disconcerting.Is there any studies available on how often 'Anti-Semitic' is used vs 'Islamophobia'?
This may be worth your consideration:
In response to a few points raised earlier I thought I'd add a bit of context.
The hole in my knowledge is why Jewish people have been villified throughout history (for hundreds of years at least) in all forms of artistic endeavour and at all levels of society - from what I can gather it seems to have the excepted cultural position.
In many parts of Europe Jews, as non Christians, were barred from joining guilds or practicing many of the the more respectable professions, therefore those with an enterprising bent tended to end up as landlords, money lenders and tax collectors as they were some of the few professional careers left open to them.
All three professions are hardly likely to make you popular and that, combined with their visually distinct appearance made them an easy scapegoat for society's ills. The 'Jews killed Jesus' was an intensifying factor and made it easier for the authorities or the Church to use them as society's whipping boys.
My gut feeling is that most of the current Anti-Semitic accusations being thrown at the Labour party are more to do with it's stance towards the Israel / Palestine conflict than any actual anti-Semiticism.
The current row has blown up due to specific instances of Labour party councillors and activists being anti-semitic indeed on social media, specifically [url= http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-beds-bucks-herts-36009544 ]HERE[/url] and [url= http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-35810636 ]HERE [/url]
No I'm not taking sides here, both sides have legitimate grievances and reason to be hugely cynical about the motives the other, it's going to take some truly inspiring leadership on both sides to unpick his situation and sadly I suspect we'll have to be very lucky see this happen in my lifetime.
@jimjam:
They don't help themselves by hoarding all the gold and mutilating little boys penises.
This is one of the most anti-Semitic things I have read in a long time.
First of all, neither your words nor your tone hint at any irony, and secondly, your specific comment about circumcision is clearly meant to ridicule and not merely critique or question the practice.
Nice one. 🙄
Re the latest Labour anti-semitism issues, councillors are always getting fired for saying racist/islamophobic comments and tweets, UKIP seem to loose a candidate/councilor a month
yet I see no Major papers headlines about the Tories having an Islamophobia problem...
http://www.getsurrey.co.uk/news/surrey-news/tories-investigate-runnymede-councillors-alleged-9949326
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-34191917
or indeed an anti-semitism problem
http://www.jewishnews.co.uk/exclusive-tory-council-candidate-id-never-support-the-jew-miliband/
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/top-tory-councillor-suspended-over-7738953
To clarify, I think Hitler was evil and the holocaust was horrific~ by the same merit, the people who provided the funds to allow it to happen in the 1st place,
[url= http://www.theguardian.com/world/2004/sep/25/usa.secondworldwar ]How Bush's Grandfather Helped Hitler's Rise to Power[/url]
[url= http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/bank-of-england/10213988/Never-mind-the-Czech-gold-the-Nazis-stole....html ]The Bank for International Settlements actually funded Hitler's War Machine[/url]
The documents reveal a shocking story: just six months before Britain went to war with Nazi Germany, the Bank of England willingly handed over £5.6 million worth of gold to Hitler – and it belonged to another country.
Thomas McKittrick, an American banker, was president of the BIS. When the United States entered the war in December 1941, McKittrick’s position, the history notes, “became difficult”. But McKittrick managed to keep the bank in business, thanks in part to his friend Allen Dulles, the US spymaster based in Berne. McKittrick was an asset of Dulles, known as Codename 644, and frequently passed him information that he had garnered from Emil Puhl, who was a frequent visitor to Basel and often met McKittrick.[b]Declassified documents in the American intelligence archives reveal an even more disturbing story. Under an intelligence operation known as the “Harvard Plan”, McKittrick was in contact with Nazi industrialists, working towards what the US documents, dated February 1945, describe as a “close cooperation between the Allied and German business world”.
Thus while Allied soldiers were fighting through Europe, McKittrick was cutting deals to keep the Germany economy strong. This was happening with what the US documents describe as “the full assistance” of the State Department. [/b]
Aided by its powerful friends, such as Montagu Norman, Allen Dulles and much of Wall Street, the BIS survived the attempts by Morgenthau and White to close it down. The bank’s allies used precisely the argument detailed on page 1,295 of the Bank of England’s history: the BIS was needed to plan the post-war European economy.From the 1950s to the 1990s the BIS hosted much of the planning and technical preparation for the introduction of the euro. Without the BIS the euro would probably not exist. In 1994, Alexander Lamfalussy, the former BIS manager, set up the European Monetary Institute, now known as the European Central Bank.
along with those who helped Nazis escape:
[url= http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/juliankossoff/100030163/the-pope-eichmann-and-the-nazi-ratlines/ ]
The Pope, Eichmann and the Nazi 'Ratlines'[/url]
Germany is fighting to keep sealed the Adolf Eichmann files detailing the years the Holocaust chief logistical organiser spent on the run before he was captured by Mossad agents.Those hoping to have a 50-year secrecy order overturned believe the government is embarrassed by details within that may prove German and Vatican officials colluded in his escape and freedom.
[b]Indeed, the Church's practise of protecting its own perpetrators of vicious crimes has already been well established with the tragic revelations of thousands of victims of child sex abuse by cleric paedophiles.[/b]
For the current papacy under the German pope, Benedict XVI, the 4,500 page Eichmann dossier could be the 'smoking gun' that would shoot down his plans to canonize Pope Pius XII (1939-58), aka 'Hitler's Pope.'
The role of Pope Pius XII during World War II, his relationship with Nazism and his efforts (or lack of them) to save Jews from the gas chambers are hotly disputed. Even within the Jewish community there are strong opinions on both sides of the debate.
But the latest Eichmann revelations suggest that Pope Pius XII's moral stature – and qualification for sainthood – should be judged on its conduct in the aftermath of Nazism's defeat. Once the evil of the Holocaust was revealed for all to see, the Holy See should have been at the forefront of the campaign to bring the war criminals to trial.
[b]In fact history's most savage mass murderers – Adolf Eichmann, Dr Josef Mengele, better known as Auschwitz's 'Angel of Death', Franz Stangl, commandant of the Treblinka extermination camp – escaped justice down the 'ratline' that ran straight through the Vatican state in Rome.[/b]
are also very much to blame.
gobuchul - MemberIt's the same God
That's even worse!
jive " why don't Isis attack Israel ?" is probably answered by looking at the map you posted and working out where isis is currently located , and also by considering the efficiency of Israeli internal security the ruthless might of the IDF and the fact that Hamas and Hezbollah sort of control the anti Israel game in the area and wont be keen to admit rivals.
ruthless might of the IDF
Fair point...
[img] 
[/img]
So why are the US supplying such extensive military aid to Israel?
and why are MI6 and the CIA so balls deep in creating the mess in Syria?
[img] 
[/img]
[img] [/img]
I'm really concerned about my reaction to my medication. Junkyard is making a lot more sense to me these days.
Dont worry its mine that has stopped working 😉
JHJ you're stuff is too "western-centric" of who/what is happening in the Mid East, you need to broaden your horizons, chap.
Can you explain to me the supply chains to Arms to Israel?
How about Saudi Arabia?
Who funds and exports the most extreme form of islam?
How did the current situation in Iran develop?
Have there been any junctures in modern history when MI6 and the CIA didn't have a presence before or during significant conflict?
Can you explain to me the supply chains to Arms to Israel?
Lizards
The QueenHow about Saudi Arabia?
Who funds and exports the most extreme form of islam?
The BBC
How did the current situation in Iran develop?
Jimmy Saville
Dont know as its a secret.Have there been any junctures in modern history when MI6 and the CIA didn't have a presence before or during significant conflict?
I'll take that to mean you can't answer...
[b]saxonrider[/b] +1
jimjam - what you said was straight forward antisemitism. Sorry and all that.
It's complex isn't it? Centuries of prejudice and dislike against the jews, blood libels, lies, conspiracy theories of which JHJ would be proud...
And then they start treating other people, the way they have been treated and on one side you see a US lobby resisting any criticism, and on the other side a desire by some arabic countries to drive them all into the sea...
Complicated and nuanced.
