[Closed] Another US police shooting

Awful stuff.

Eight shots? Why didn't the Policeman just chase the guy down if he wanted to arrest him?

Jesus.....

If it wasn't so appalling that video looks like a terrible teenage media studies version of a shooting. And to cuff on his face a bloke you know is only on the floor because you shot him - what's that about.

convert - Member
If it wasn't so appalling that video looks like a terrible teenage media studies version of a shooting. And to cuff on his face a bloke you know is only on the floor because you shot him - what's that about

No doubt another of their "standard practices".....

Yup. Same as planting a weapon by the body afterwards.

Shoots an unarmed man in the back. Plants evidence and its all on camera. Still a good chance he won't spend a single night in jail though

As he's been now been charged with murder then id say he is now behind bars... pretty grim though, and would certainly suggest that in the original version of events by the police they lied... 😕

The shooting unfolded after Officer Slager stopped the driver of a Mercedes-Benz with a broken taillight, according to police reports.

[url= http://www.nytimes.com/2015/04/08/us/south-carolina-officer-is-charged-with-murder-in-black-mans-death.html?hp&action=click&pgtype=Homepage&module=a-lede-package-region&region=top-news&WT.nav=top-news ]the nyt article[/url]

I've just checked and South Carolina was the first Southern state to declare secession from the US in a bid to keep black people enslaved, Charleston was where the first shots of the American Civil War were fired.

[i]"South Carolina also was the only Southern state not to harbor pockets of anti-secessionist fervor strong enough to send large amounts of white men to fight for the Union, as every other state in the Confederacy did"[/i]

It seems that 150 years later there might still be a need for some work to be done Charleston South Carolina.

See; the NRA was right, if everyone had guns this sort of shit just wouldn't happen 🙄

Are the Officers observational skills that bad as well? (not to notice or note/acknowledge someone holding a camera/object within their peripheral). Or are they that blasé?

There will be good officers in that force who are tarnished and also now at personal risk due to this incident and officer.

So what does the average American think of it ?

Given its a regular thing and we all find it appalling, how come it keeps happening.

Is it because its acceptable by most people, or is it because those in a position to change it wont change it ?

the NRA was right, if everyone had guns this sort of shit just wouldn't happen

Well Walter Scott didn't have a gun, perhaps that was the problem ?

I'm sure that had he, a black man, shot a white police officer and claimed self-defence a jury would have found him innocent.

I've noticed that one of the peculiar things about American police shootings always seems to be their standard action after a shooting, even by those arriving when the scene is clearly secured, appears to be to stand around looking confused rather than render first aid (unlike, for example, the immediate aftermath of the mark Duggan shooting in the UK)

This shooting seems to have clearly been murder, shooting an unarmed man running away with no suggestion of immediate threat to life, unlike many of the others that have been in a struggle, or when someone tried to grab an officers gun (I know in two of the recent filmed cases this was clearly the case)

Shock? and/or a combination with "whats going to happen/what to do to get out of this"?

Absolutely terrible. As above I think if this had not been caught on camera we would not be seeing this murder charge.

I do wonder why you would run away from an armed policeman in the US though, you certainly don't deserve to be shot in the back but its not a low risk move ?

ninfan - Member

This shooting seems to have clearly been murder, shooting an unarmed man running away with no suggestion of immediate threat to life

And with no attempt to try and render first aid or save his life - instead just leaving him cuffed face down.
I'm surprised that they didn't try and stop the guy filming - they must just have thought that they can get away with this stuff, so what's the problem.

Police reports say that officers performed CPR and delivered first aid to Mr. Scott. The video shows that for several minutes after the shooting, Mr. Scott remained face down with his hands cuffed behind his back. A second officer arrives, puts on blue medical gloves and attends to Mr. Scott, but is not shown performing CPR. As sirens wail in the background, a third officer later arrives, apparently with a medical kit, but is also not seen performing CPR.

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/04/08/us/south-carolina-officer-is-charged-with-murder-in-black-mans-death.html

Yeah, as I say, the lack of effective first aid seems to be a pattern (though you can understand being cautious that the threat was over before doing so)

It can't be an easy job, things can clearly go south very quickly, for example someone unexpectedly lunging at you with a screwdriver would lead to a proper split second decision

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=7f4_1426548792

Absolutely terrible reading about this, it just seems unbelievably tragic that a routine traffic stop* ended with someone losing their life in such a needless way. And the thought that this could have gone unchallenged (and does in other cases) were it not for video evidence just leaves a [b]very [/b]bad taste in the mouth.

*Is tazer use so normal that you use one to stop someone fleeing a stop for a broken light?

Shock? and/or a combination with "whats going to happen/what to do to get out of this"?

Well the "what to do to get out of this" seems to have been covered off in advance by saying on the radio that he had taken his tazer (when he apparently hadn't) and then going back to pick 'something' up and then dropping it next to the victim.

NYT article did say the 'something' couldn't be identified on the video, but not a lot else it could have been and given all the other damning inconsistencies in the account formt he police that conflicts with the video evidence it's hard not to draw conclusions.

The lack of first aid is something that struck me to. Almost as though it is an everyday event to shoot someone and let them die.

The guy didn't die instantly (the officer actually seemed to be a pretty poor shot) and probably could have been saved. Officer could have saved himself being up for murder but I guess he was probably banking on leaving no witness so he could tell his own story.

Only saving grace is there is now someone who shouldnt be a Police officer out of the uniform and off the streets.

No }%}]**^ words for this. I recently saw the video of a group (must be a better collective term, anyone?) of US cops shooting dead a mentally ill homeless man who was camping in the woods. Poor bastard all he had was a carrier bag and a penknife so they gunned him down in a hail of bullets from a distance, like target practice for them. Weirdest thing is that was police footage and they stand behind their actions. Just because the guy was mentally ill, distressed, surrounded by cops with guns he held a penknife in his hand and got dropped like a sack. Sickening. In my work with Special Needs I've sometimes had to disarm teenagers safely, one with a steak knife comes to mind. The thought of calling law officials to come and have them killed is so far out in space that I just hate to think what these American police have in their minds day to day. 'suspect neutralised'

So what does the average American think of it ?

Let's ask an American - Mrs Rider is typically, horrified, angry yet wholly unsurprised.

Also - 'average American'? Is that like an 'average European'?

Charged with murder.

Without that (brave) camera footage/person he'd have probably received a commendation for keeping his cool.

Are the Officers observational skills that bad as well? (not to notice or note/acknowledge someone holding a camera/object within their peripheral)

So glad I do not live in a country with armed police

its not a low risk move ?

Certainly not, unless you're white, in which case they'll try their best to take you down with nunchucks or something.

I've noticed that one of the peculiar things about American police shootings always seems to be their standard action after a shooting,

+1. Creepy, disassociated, murderous behaviour. Puts me in mind of the killer of Lee Rigby.

As much as I hate to think it - letting the person you just shot die on the scene is surely the least complicated course of action for the police officer.

As someone said:

'Dead men tell no tales'

An apt expression. Fortunately for any possible future victims of this latest clueless Robocop - cameras do tell tales.

Good luck to this fella if/when he gets to prison. 😯

The police were quick to get an initial statement out that said that the officer was attacked by the victim, that the victim had taken his taser and that the officer had been forced to fire his weapon during the struggle as he feared for his life. They even said "police and witnesses said...", as if there were other people who imagined the officer's version of events as well.

As for lying about administering CPR when in reality you stood there and watched a man die, that's just sick.

I'm going to get flamed for this I am sure. Not administering first aid and instead putting on handcuffs is pretty calous and will no doubt be used in the trial. However if they guy has been shot multiple times first aid/CPR isn't going to make any difference to the outcome.

The real issue here for me is the unnecessary lethal force and then the attempted cover up statements.

if they guy has been shot multiple times first aid/CPR isn't going to make any difference to the outcome.

FWIW if it had been a copper shot in the same way what do you reckon the coppers would have tried or not tried ?

The police were quick to get an initial statement out that said that the officer was attacked by the victim, that the victim had taken his taser and that the officer had been forced to fire his weapon during the struggle as he feared for his life. They even said "police and witnesses said...", as if there were other people who imagined the officer's version of events as well.

Really? You'd think any Police press release would be hold off until the facts are known.

So his partner looks like hes in a lot of trouble too then?

However if they guy has been shot multiple times first aid/CPR isn't going to make any difference to the outcome.

Well that's nonsense.

Agree. Suge Knight was shot.....how many times???!

However if they guy has been shot multiple times first aid/CPR isn't going to make any difference to the outcome.

How do you know how many times he was shot? Have postmortem findings been released? Eight shot fired from the gun apparently but that doesn't mean that he was shot eight times. Nor are there details as far as I know which areas of the body were hit.

.

I'm going to get flamed for this I am sure.

TBH I would expect you to see this incident from a right-wing Republican Tea Party perspective, I guess you're saying only the sort of thing that right-wing Republican Tea Party law-abiding God-fearing all-American honest folk are probably saying.

It's getting off the real issue but the guy was shot through the heart. He wasn't going to survive.

The real issues are that the officer reacted by shooting him and second there does [u]appear[/u] to be an attempt to cover up the real situation by placing a taser by the victim.

That the police seem to have largely ignored the person lying dead/dying on the ground could suggest all manner of things but seems surprising to me.

EDIT - shot through the heart based on this - may not be accurate of course
> http://www.nytimes.com/2015/04/08/us/south-carolina-officer-is-charged-with-murder-in-black-mans-death.html
br />

Mr. Stewart said the coroner had told him that Mr. Scott was struck five times — three times in the back, once in the upper buttocks and once in the ear — with at least one bullet entering his heart. It is not clear whether Mr. Scott died immediately. (The coroner’s office declined to make the report available to The Times.)

nemesis - Member
It's getting off the real issue but the guy was shot through the heart. He wasn't going to survive

Yeah, I reckon the copper knew that too. So instead of administering any kind of first aid, he set about cleaning up his ****-up. No point wasting time trying to save the guy's life. Has anybody told the military this kind of stuff? They could save a fortune on unnecessary medics and their associated kit when soldiers are shot multiple times. Imagine the time wasted trying to save soldiers.

.....the guy was shot through the heart. He wasn't going to survive.

How could the officer who shot him and the other officers who attended have been sure that a bullet had gone through the heart - did he die instantly?

I always thought that a bullet through the heart means pretty much instant death, how long can you live after a bullet has gone through your heart?

Really hope the investigation goes further than looking only at the actions of the police officer.

I fear they are laying all the blame on one rogue officer who made "bad decision", when it seems there is a more widespread problem of a trigger-happy culture in the police force and an entitlement to use whatever force they like, with only the flimsiest of excuses to justify it. I wonder if he was told by his colleagues to say "he tried to take my tazer/gun" whenever he shoots someone.

I wasn't suggesting they were sure of it. As I said, that they then ignored him (other than to cuff him) seems rather surprising.

I'm amazed he didn't put a hot one into the dude filming.

I wonder if he was told by his colleagues to say "he tried to take my tazer/gun" whenever he shoots someone.

From the video the 'struggle' is plausible, as something is dropped just as the camera comes on to the two of them. No excuse for shooting him in the back 8 times though....

I wasn't suggesting they were sure of it.

You seemed pretty sure of it though, quote : [i]"the guy was shot through the heart. He wasn't going to survive"[/i]

Unless he was properly examined by a qualified person I can't see how anyone would know exactly what vital organs had been hit or how much damaged had been done.

I'm amazed he didn't put a hot one into the dude filming.

More to the point, having watched that shooting you would either have to have a death wish or balls of steel to not only keep on filming but get closer. In a weird way it shows some trust of the uniform - if it was a random member of the public you had just watched gun someone down you wouldn't hang around to watch.

Are the Officers observational skills that bad as well? (not to notice or note/acknowledge someone holding a camera/object within their peripheral). Or are they that blasé?

Just tunnel vision. If you are concentrating hard on shoooting a man running away from you then your peripheral vision is useless.

I always thought that a bullet through the heart means pretty much instant death, how long can you live after a bullet has gone through your heart?

Bullets aren't as lethal as people think - according to [url= http://www.emsworld.com/article/10319706/gunshot-wounds ]this[/url] a bullet wound to the heart has a mortality rate of ~80% and speed of intervention is a key factor in determining outcomes.

He probably would have died anyway but lack of proper assessment and intervention guaranteed it.

He probably would have died anyway but lack of proper assessment and intervention guaranteed it.

That's a nice way of saying they didn't give a shit if he died or not!

[url= http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_cases_of_police_brutality_in_the_United_States ]chances are he'll be acquitted[/url], either the federal authorities will then prosecute on civil rights abuses or law suit by the family on the same grounds

Just tunnel vision. If you are concentrating hard on shoooting a man running away from you then your peripheral vision is useless.

Yup, I've never shot and killed someone 25 yards away but I imagine that it's probably like being in a fight - intensely focused on what you're doing and oblivious to what's happening around you.

US police officers killed twice as many people [u]last month[/u] as UK police killed in the whole of the 20th Century.

http://thefreethoughtproject.com/american-cops-killed-people-month-march-uk-entire-20th-century/

The litany of police shootings - legal or otherwise - in the USA is tragic.

The elephant in the room is the nation's obsession with gun ownership, but given it is so deeply ingrained in their culture, I can't see any quick or easy fix.

I can't see any quick or easy fix.

It won't be easy or quick to fix, it'll be hard and take ages, problem is they don't seem to even be making much of a start at fixing it

the murder rap will hopefully prevent rioting.. but if he gets acquitted there is gonna be hell on the streets of S.Carolina

the greater crime seems to be letting him bleed to death on the floor

and then the police colluding to lie about giving him CPR, certainly gives the impression that its standard practice to just lie on your report and say they tried to save him

will the other 2 cops who didnt give him treatment face charges?

the greater crime seems to be letting him bleed to death on the floor

and then the police colluding to lie about giving him CPR, certainly gives the impression that its standard practice to just lie on your report and say they tried to save him

will the other 2 cops who didnt give him treatment face charges?

amedias - Member

I can't see any quick or easy fix.

It won't be easy or quick to fix, it'll be hard and take ages, problem is they don't seem to even be making much of a start at fixing it

As I say, the whole gun thing is so deeply embedded in their culture that they're not really able to step back and make any attempt at a rational debate on the issue, let alone change the situation.

I expect that by shooting at him 8 times they were fully intending to kill the guys therefore what would be the point in administering any first aid or making any attempt to save his life?

But i guess if you're leaking like a sieve then administering CPR will just speed up the escape of blood from your body.

Its a nonsence of a situation in the US, or appears to be so from thousands of miles across the pond. Life seems to be very cheap in the US if they can justify the countless deaths from guns every year just to keep their ownership of guns and tolerate the Police administering their Judge Dredd style of law enforcement, where police officers are deciding if people should live or die.

Guy doesnt drop after the first couple of shots so not sure if they all hit him and then he seems to have his head up for 30 seconds or so after he does finally go down so not sure I buy the Police story at the moment. Immediate care is everything, if it wasnt a hole in the heart or head then first aid could have made all the difference combined with quick response by medical crews. But I guess they weren't interested in that.

[i]He checked his pulse, he could have decided he was dead already[/i]

Even with no pulse, you can successfully administer CPR. You'd at least give it a go, wouldn't you?

It's just seems like a callous disregard for another human's life.

8 rounds at a man running away, it beggers belief 😕

Always struck me as being very gung ho over in America with regards to just unleashing a hail of bullets as a result of a minor misdemeanour.

Used to watch those US cop programs all the time (American version of Police Interceptors) and the amount of times they would stop someone for speeding, which would escalate to the person trying to do a runner because they had a bag of weed in the boot and the policeman would just get a gun out and start shooting at the perp.....

Saw one once where they were chasing a Harley Davidson with pillion. Can't remember the reason for the chase, something like shoplifting or speeding - nothing too serious - and the policeman eventually rammed the motorbike off the road, killing the rider & pillion because he 'failed to stop'. So two dead people - just like that for the sake of what was really a minor indiscretion in the scheme of things.

I saw the beginning of this vid on BBC this morning but just watched the whole mind boggling thing. I haven't studied it, but I could see not a single drop of blood on his shirt which seems strange to say the least.

I know 9mm rounds have little stopping power,(I recall someone was hit with 7 shots from an smg in NI and got up and ran away!) so a mortal strike would be needed to kill as quickly as that.

If it wasn't so in the news I don't think I would have believed it was real....if I had been that Copper, I'd have taken out the guy with the camera too!

bencooper - Member

US police officers killed twice as many people last month as UK police killed in the whole of the 20th Century.

http://thefreethoughtproject.com/american-cops-killed-people-month-march-uk-entire-20th-century/

An eye-opening and saddening link.
They've really got it wrong, haven't they? 🙁
Time for a change in their constitution, not that I can see it happening in my lifetime.

The American gun culture creates extreme cases that highlight the abuse of power by the police, but I don't believe that the majority of everyday abuses are any different over there than they are here.

The sooner all police are wearing those cameras being trialled the better. They should be a great tool in protecting innocent people from abusive police, and good cops from stupid accusations.

but I could see not a single drop of blood on his shirt which seems strange to say the least.

MSP, I think you are right about the importance of cameras,(though think there is still a risk of split second high stress decisions being easy to second guess from the comfort of the office with video replay)

For example:

That was a bloody fast escalation from 'suspect running away' to 'suspect drops gun and picks it up again' - I would not like to have to rely on witness statements to prove my innocence in that one.

On ^ I think that is justifiable- from the moment he drops the gun, crouches immediately then twists the officer is already raising/the fear of danger IMO.

Even if with hindsight anyone can say 'yes but as the suspected twisted he was turning to run'. hindsight- replay yes but at the scene the suspect had a strong burst of speed/ability to move quickly.

He checked his pulse, he could have decided he was dead already

Even with no pulse, you can successfully administer CPR.

Isn't "no pulse" the exact situation where you SHOULD be doing CPR?

I would not want to be a copper in USA.

As much as what this guy did was 100% wrong, remember that it is not just the cops that carry guns so when a copper turns up somewhere, there is a very real chance he will get shot at too. I would imagine that would make the best of us a bit edgy and possibly trigger happy.

Again, I am in no way justifying his actions just mentioning that there are 2 sides to everything.

Hora, yes that's the way I saw it too, you could even understand him telling the other bloke to stay back till they at least had another officer there to disarm him (which they did as soon as he got there) though again after that they all stood about looking stupid rather than begin effective first aid)

I would imagine that without the camera the witness versions of events would have been pretty damning against the officer though.

Again, I am in no way justifying his actions just mentioning that there are 2 sides to everything

He shot an unarmed, fleeing suspect in the back, then appears to plant a taser near him while doing nothing to try to save his life. This is beyond "I overreacted a bit because I'm a bit wary of the general public".

And yes there are two sides to this story, the police's side and the side recorded on camera.

Nah, the planting thing was bollocks, firstly he did it after the other cop got there, secondly you then see him pick it up and reholster it a couple of minutes later. (And he would have been better putting it in an evidence bag to prove the bloke had grabbed it off him)

I have watched it a few times now, and it does look to me like the video picks up the tail end of a struggle in which the officers tazer falls to the ground, the "victim" then runs and is shot dead. After handcuffing the apparently dead man, he jogs back, picks up the tazer and comes back and puts it on the ground for a relatively short time before holstering it.

So my take on the incident is excessive deadly force in the heat of the moment. But not cold blooded murder.

The video was given to the families lawyer who passed it to the NY Times. It could be the earlier confrontation was filmed and that's been edited.

I don't envy the job of US police officers, unfortunately absolute gash-bags like this clown destroy any or what little credibility they have left. This case will be interesting to follow and see if they can honestly represent the facts and hold those accountable.

That doesn't excuse some of the comments here though, some are genuinely laughable; Any comparison between our police and the Americans are disingenuous to say the least.
Our firearm teams are medically trained or have a specific medic, they are legally bound to provide treatment to any and all that are wounded, once an individual has been shot or are no longer deemed a threat medical assistance is given. US officers are not obligated to provide first aid to someone they've shot, they call and bus and let the EMTs deal with it. Not saying it's right, but that's the way they operate.

The comments about 'gun culture' are the best. People going banzai with legally owned firearms is an issue and one that needs dealing with, but in reality due to their right to bear arms will never get touched, coupled with the power organisations like the NRA have in lobbying congress. Even if somehow tighter controls or bans were put in place, in no way would that eradicate gun crime, nor the risk posed to police. Not when you have a steady flow of Russian block weapons and equipment crossing the southern border for supply to extremely violent and organised gangs, also the same gangs have members joining the U.S. military and supplying them hardware as well.

Some of the Mexican gangs have been linked with the likes of AQ moving weapons across the border for their nutcases, they also quite violently protect they people trafficking business as well, I spent three days with the border guys in Southern California and had my eyes opened in a big way. Most people don't realise how lucky we are to live on this tiny island that has effectively banned all weapons and does a fairly good job of tracking those that want to bring them in.

So my take on the incident is excessive deadly force in the heat of the moment. But not cold blooded murder.

Actually I am going to take that back, it is based on an assumption that the dead man caused the scuffle and not the police officer, when there is no evidence to support that. So much hinges on what happened before the video picks up the incident, it really could go either way.

MSP, I agree. Also the only justification for engaging that man for me would have been if he was armed and his demeanour and attitude led me to belive he may attempt to harm someone. Other than that a good solid rugby tackle and arm bar to submission would suffice.

The issue is the officers actions post incident are suspicious to say the least. The 'item' dropped should be left in situ for CSI to document and process, the fact he moved it means he actually tampered with a crime scene!

it is based on an assumption that the dead man caused the scuffle and not the police officer, when there is no evidence to support that.

I can't see what difference who "caused" the scuffle makes.

The police officer said that he feared for his life because the man had taken his stun gun in a scuffle after a traffic stop.

This picture of him shooting at Walter Scott doesn't back up his claim that he was "fearing for his life"

[img] ?w=640[/img]

Which presumably explains why the officer has been charged with first-degree murder. Irrespective of what happened before the shooting.

For the heat of the moment types:

You have a disagreement with someone, street, in your house as a burglar etc.

You fight him off. He flees, you then pursue him and bring him down then keep hitting him (in the case of a UK burglary case the men chasing used a baseball bat).

Regardless its no longer self defence.

Its excessive force, now an assault (by you) or worse.