[Closed] Another cyclist killed by an HGV in London

The police spoke to him and didn't arrest him. Suggests he didn't do much wrong to me.

Given all the reports I've seen of police taking action on traffic incidents involving cyclists, that isn't a very good assumption IMHO.

sit in the cab of a HGV and see what the driver has to contend with.... HGV drivers are about the most skilled on the road, they have to be.

See what you are doing here is acknowledging that HGVs are inherently difficult to drive safely, requiring a high degree of skill and perfect attention from the driver, and exemplary road-sense from those around them, to avoid killing anyone.

So given that humans are far from perfect, why do we allow HGVs to drive through very busy city streets at rush hour? Mistakes will happen - but perhaps if they happened when the streets weren't packed with people then the fatality figures might fall?

There is some new cab design. The drivers seat is positioned much lower and the windows are much bigger. It will probably be many years before we'll see any on the road.

aracer - Member
Given all the reports I've seen of police taking action on traffic incidents involving cyclists, that isn't a very good assumption IMHO.

Oh really? 🙁

i know its unusual on here but i am a cyclist.. so when today i almost saw someone almost sent on thier way to the pearly gates i was pretty livid..

older rider togged up in faded lycra , pedalling liesurly well out into the road so i slows and waits for a good gap in the traffic to get past giving plenty of room in the sprinter..
couple of mins later im waiting to turn left at a mini roundabout and who comes up on my inside.. only he's not indicating left as i am hes going straight on.. and didnt even pause to see why i was stopped.. cue one lady driver in tears and older rider in faded and now torn lycra calling each other names.. who was to blame..

Before most of deliveries were made at night in London. Then many residents complained about noise. These days deliveries made during daytime.

TuckerUK, I'm surprised your company doesn't send drivers for CPC. Guess due to different regulations some haulage companies can avoid extra expenditures.

London bus companies are regulated more heavily before awarding contracts, maybe that's why they are forced to train their personnel. Think all bus drivers must complete their course ( minimum of 35 hours every 5 years ) before 2013 September/October.

HGV have 1 extra year to comply to new rules.

I am an HGV driver and a cyclist (well as close as I can be for being a member on here), I think part of the learning to drive process should include half a day driving an HGV on private ground, they could let drivers see what we see in the cab when people tailgate, sneak up on the inside in the blindspot, cut in front at motorway junctions to save that precious few seconds and to let them see that cycling/driving up the inside is a very bad idea and and not a safe place to be.

All vehicles have blind spots, the size of HGV's just means they are bigger than the ones on cars etc, the law dictates that all HGV's must be fitted with front and side blind spot mirrors... That doesn't necessarily mean the driver will check them on a regular basis... Same as rear view mirrors on cars, the amount of people who don't look in them is unbelievable, same as wing mirrors, I have seen people driving along with them folded in... Proof that they aren't checking them...ever!

So before we get the pitchforks out there is blame on both sides, it is a tragedy they a family has lost a loved one in this manner but accidents happen.. How many accidents are caused everyday by cyclists, car drivers and van drivers. I see far worse driving from car drivers than any other road user.

I agree that putting HGV's into busy streets is very dangerous and in some cases daft. I'm all up for delivering good when the roads are quiet, I start my work before 4am most days and it makes it much easier when the roads are quiet, but then I'm not going into city centres very often. But sure as night follows day the same people who would back this campaign would soon tire of the noise at nights and say "why do they have to deliver so early/late?, can't they come during the day?"

Without lorries we get nothing! The transport system in this country was never designed to cope with the number of vehicles filling our road everyday.

Driver CPC training is mandatory for all UK HGV drivers.

So basically you are saying just don't ride on the road then?

Scarry stuff. Not quite a lorry but wow.

I drive an hgv around london daily, between 7am and 5pm. I'd much prefer too drive on quieter roads, but building sites, shops,etc, are only open for delivery, in the daytime.
Trucks are hard to drive, and some drivers are shit, so please give them space, so we can avoid any more pointless deaths.

As above it would be nice for all inner city deliveries to be compled during the dark hours, but who is going to pay for the staff,to man the depots,ofices,sites etc, who is going to design a quiet lorry, and silence the reversing sounds, air brakes etc, the clatter of goods being unloaded and the actual staff chatting or shouting.

Its not going to happen, so we need better education of cyclists as theyre the ones getting killed, and the driver has to live with that for life.

Perhaps ring round all your local shops and tell them you want theuir deliverioes to be made in the dark hours, so it doesnt affect possibly kill a cyclist once in a while.

Symapthy to the cyclist and the driver involved.

One day it could be either one for us as a driver or cyclist.

but building sites, shops,etc, are only open for delivery, in the daytime.

Evans Cycles actually experimented for a while with night time deliveries - don't know if they still do it?

The rationale behind it was that there is no congestion charge, the shops aren't open for business so there's no drop-off in customer service as staff drag crates in and out but also just that the strrets are quieter so deliveries are quicker and it's far less likely that you're going to knock anyone over.

On the other hand, it did cost them a lot extra in staff wages at that time of night!

But then Evans will only be haveing a few boxes of bikes and parts, as oposed to numeous rol cages or pallet truck deliveries.

Also what happens if the staff dont want to cover late night deliveries.

Okay so any reason that lorries for use in city centres couldn't look more like this:

[img] [/img]

[img] [/img]

[url= http://www.guardian.co.uk/lifeandstyle/2013/mar/19/cyclist-friendly-lorry-design-accidents ]As proposed by the London Cycling Campaign and reported in Teh Grauniad[/url]

If it is unacceptable to simply ban lorries at peak times then perhaps only lorries which are specifically designed for busy city streets should be allowed?

More details of the design here:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/bike-blog/2013/mar/20/cycle-safe-lorries

I'm always surprised by how easily people accept these deaths, surely it makes sense for the heaviest most dangerous vehicles to be able to see whats around them when driving in cities (a place where lots and lots of people live and walk/cycle about)??

Theres a description of an incident here... cyclist made eye contact with driver, he still didn't see her, and despite everyone screaming at him to stop, still took a few seconds to realise what was going on...
[img] [/img]
http://www.lfgss.com/thread74152.html

What education are you going to give cyclists/pedestrians? If a lorry comes up behind you, run away? Who's going to provide the education? The same councils that built filter lanes and ASL's precisely where the blind spots are?

From LFGSS:

Suddenly people started shouting "Stop! Stop!" and I could hear a rapid crunching/popping noise.

Turning round I saw an articulated lorry, driving toward the bridge.

On her back, knees bent and feet on the front bumper, was a lady who was being pushed along the ground by the lorry- her bike was just going under the front wheel which was the crunching/popping noise.

The driver was looking around him at all these people shouting "Stop! Stop!" and shrugging..

JESUS! H! CHRISTMAS!

Again: why do we allow HGVs to drive through busy city streets when their design means drivers can't see other road users from their cabs???

Does seem a bit stupid.

Buses and bin lorries have low seating position and wrap-around view. At least here they do. So the new lorry design pictured above is not exactly anything new.

And I'd say most HGVs in cities, between rush hours, probably aren't huge delivery lorries, but are... buses, bin men, etc. (and in central London, the bin men literally go round 2-3 times per day, not once per week).

So the lorry pictured above is not exactly anything new.

Yep - that was one of their key points. It is based on existing bin lorry design so the lorry companies can't brush it off as impossible.

e.g truck next to railings

Railings seem to be a road furnishing unique to UK. I've certainly never noticed them elsewhere. Can't someone get the cable thieves to steal them, rather than BT and Power lines?

Another example showing that lorry incidents are not just silly cyclists who position themselves up the inside of lorries:

(warning: contains some quite understandable swearing)

I believe the suggestion above of having prox sensors down the sides of lorries was implemented by a company (cemex possibly) after one of their drivers killed a girl in London by turning across when she had gone up the inside of him.

EDIT - Here we are - http://www.bikeradar.com/news/article/300th-cemex-vehicle-to-be-fitted-with-sensors-to-keep-vulnerable-road-users-safe-28547/

Why cant more/all companies do this or the truck bodies come with these as standard. It would work for all types, motorbikes, cyclists, cars, even pedestrians.

Treacle, was this the company where the mother of the dead girl became a shareholder and lobbied the board from within?

Re this business of sensors, some of us wrote to our MEPs but it wasn't enough:
[url= http://road.cc/content/news/59995-familys-disappointment-eu-shelves-hgv-safety-proposals ]good article here from road.cc[/url]

Yeah thats the one

This is a training video they made too.

She was named yesterday, very sad:

[url= http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2013/apr/10/british-scientist-katharine-giles-killed-cycling-accident ]http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2013/apr/10/british-scientist-katharine-giles-killed-cycling-accident[/url]

I try to educate other cyclists on their positioning whilst commuting if I see somebody doing something really daft.
it doesn't generally go down too well and people either look at you as if you're mental or tell you to do one (maybe I should use less swear words).
I generally follow motorcyclists when negotiating traffic - they seem to know what their doing and where to be - I guess because they've been trained properly.
what about a leafleting campaign sticking leaflets on people's bikes or having bike shops (and other shops) hand them out with purchases in stores? showing people how to stay out of trouble.

This is a training video they made too.

Powerful video and overall pretty good, but a couple of things:

It advises using ASLs (fine) but at 1:35 it shows two smiling happy cyclists getting to the ASL.. by going up the inside of the lorry. 😯
And the junction where Suzie is hit in the video is also an ASL, accessed by a lefthand cycle lane.

So I think they should probably have mentioned that using ASLs is sometimes good BUT only if you can get to them safely without going up the inside of large vehicles!

Also not sure I like the commentary at @5:25 that says [i]"many cyclists don't have any training, but share the road with users of cars and LGVs who are required by law to undergo training and pass a test"[/i] - I'm not sure that is true and I think it is dangerously close to playing the blame game.

I try to educate other cyclists on their positioning whilst commuting if I see somebody doing something really daft.

Good on you!

For all the stick that CycleGaz gets, I really enjoy [url= http://www.sillycyclists.co.uk/ ]his "Silly Cyclist" videos[/url]. They are a great example of cyclists trying to educate each other on the dangers they face.

The other problem with the new trucks for london idea based on refuse vehicle chassis is cost,who in their right meind is going to be able to fund specialist lorries for london, and also will they have the same carrying ability, same loading size eg roll cages or pallets or lose stuff, or will it be expected lorries unload at outer london and transfer their load to the low chasiss type for onward delivery.

YEP THAT WILL WORK,NOT,

I dont think thats the actual junction where she was killed, rather than an example of what happened. If I remember it was more 'in town' than that. There was a TV program about the entire incident, the aftermath for her family and how her mother hassled Cemex to do something about it. When they didnt she became a shareholder, went to the shareholders meeting and said her piece to all the directors. Brave woman.

I agree about the ASL's they tempt people to do what they shouldnt. There are a few round my way that run up the centre of the road where there is a straight on and a left turn only lane but its pretty rare. I do as above and tend to do as I would on a motorbike and overtake on the right in as many situations as I can. If nothing else you are on the drivers side to knock on their window if they do something stupid!

Aren't most London incidents with construction vehicles tippers and the like, with the drivers on some bonus or target structure, everyone and his dog making a wedge out of building and minimal consequences for makin a "mistake" good luck with fixing that one.

No one answer IMO, cyclist awareness part of all driving test, laws that make drivers responsible for other road users, vehicles fit for purpose, better road design to name a few.

I've worked in the transport industry since 1968 and never forgotten a piece of advise the old boys gave me back then. Which was 'never let your guard down around tippers and breadmen'. The breadmen have gone but the tipper's are still around in larger numbers.

All the usual crap from stw to show how much safer and cleverer than the victim you are. She had been riding in London for years, not some idiot.
Here's her website: http://www.katgiles.co.uk/

The other problem with the new trucks for london idea based on refuse vehicle chassis is cost,who in their right meind is going to be able to fund specialist lorries for london

Legislate!

Change the law to state that only "people friendly" designs of HGV are allowed to operate in populous areas between say 8 and 6.

Leave it up to the haulage/construction companies to decide if it is better for them to invest in safer designs or overnight deliveries.

Sadly I doubt any politician or lawmaker has the balls to do that. Profit is far more important than the lives of people that [i]can't even afford a car[/i].

im a bus driver, and im in and out of edinburgh semi regularly.
i never have cyclists riding up the nearside of my bus in heavy traffic, mainly because i leave about 1" space when i stop in such a situation.
the only way anyone can get past me, is if they use the pavement or the offside of the bus.
ive never had an accident with a cyclist, and tbh i rarely see any really bad examples of cycling.
for the record, i work for stagecoach in dunfermline, if i hit someone on a bike i would most likely be sacked, regardless of whether the police charged me or not.

martymac - Member

for the record, i work for stagecoach in dunfermline, if i hit someone on a bike i would most likely be sacked, regardless of whether the police charged me or not.

You should come and work for Stagecoach in Cambridgeshire; they're not at all phased by something as minor as running over a cyclist. 😀

Lots of the HGVs in London are delivering big heavy things to the numerous building sites, many of which are operated around the clock.

Have seen some which have a spoken warning when indicating left at slow speeds (similar to the "vehicle reversing" ones) to discourage cyclists to pass them up the inside. Even with that, and warning signs, and the education efforts of LCC and the rest, I still see plenty of people put themselves in harm's way.

Can't help feeling the "beat the traffic" / "save time on your commute" promotion by pro-cycling groups leads to a feeling of entitlement with many London cyclists, who HAVE to get to the front of every queue regardless of whether it's a good idea. I often hang back where I see a big risk for only a second or two of gain, and usually have someone barge past regardless. ASLs are a good idea in some ways, but the feeder path on the left (often squeezed to a tiny strip) only encourages this idea, even if the traffic is about to move away.

GrahamS - Member

Another example showing that lorry incidents are not just silly cyclists who position themselves up the inside of lorries:

(warning: contains some quite understandable swearing)

clucking bell that was close.

What can you do to minimise the risk of that? Bit further into the middle of the road is all i can think of? Bloody terrifying.

The thing with ASLs is that you are [url= https://docs.google.com/file/d/0Bzho2RYpC3VudG9BeFBINXVid3M/edit ]only LEGALLY allowed to enter the box via the feeder lane[/url], which is usually on the left. So they not only actively encourage bad position - they legally enforce it!

http://thecyclingsilk.blogspot.co.uk/2013/03/metropolitan-police-letter-to-cyclists.html

What can you do to minimise the risk of that? Bit further into the middle of the road is all i can think of? Bloody terrifying.

Not much that I can think of. I don't think being further out would have helped there as it started of as a good overtake (in terms of distance from the bike at least).

I guess the only thing he could possibly have done was look further ahead than the truck driver was doing, seen blind bend and the oncoming car and hit the brakes!

feeling of entitlement with many London cyclists

Its not these people getting killed!! Its generally females, obeying the law, stopping at red lights and doing nothing wrong...

This negative stereotype thats its usually the cyclists fault is precisely why Boris will not put pressure on the haulage companies to have cameras/sensors fitted, the perception is that the cyclists are responsible, when the reality is the opposite.

e.g.
http://lcc.org.uk/articles/lorry-driver-serial-killer-of-london-cyclist-and-pedestrian-pleads-guilty

heres another example....

@ sbob, im aware that not all depots take such a hard line, but i believe it focuses the mind knowing you will be sacked.

@grahamS, thats precisely why i make sure im right at the kerb when i stop, if anyone wants to ride up the side of my bus they have to do it on the offside, which has the best view for me.

Here is an example of a pretty nice camera system that [i]could[/i] be fitted to buses and lorries to give complete blindspot coverage on one easy to check screen:

Any good reason why something like that isn't a legal requirement on large dangerous vehicles with massive blind spots?

The thing with ASLs is that you are only LEGALLY allowed to enter the box via the feeder lane,

(And the times I've ventured my motorbike onto an ASL to allow the bikes behind onto it, THEY weren't allowed on there anyway cos they didn't approach from the right place!! Well, never again! 😆 )

grahamS, thats precisely why i make sure im right at the kerb when i stop

Yep, seems like a sensible plan - though I suspect if I was following you and we pulled up at lights that had just turned red then I'd be a bit pissed off that I couldn't get up the left to the ASL when there was plenty of time to do so.

I guess it is a bit like cyclists taking the primary and annoying motorists by "deliberately getting in the way".

Buses blocking ASLs was actually raised at the last meeting of the local cycle campaign here so next time I see them I will point out that some drivers are doing that deliberately for our benefit. A little education and explanation goes a long way.

How did this non-idea get implemented all over the country!?

Probably the same way lots of cycle schemes do - they seem a good idea to non-cyclists.