[Closed] Another cyclist killed by an HGV in London

It's "their" mirrors and all new lorries have got six of them.

I've just seen a picture of the bike in the Evening Standard website, made me feel sick.

Just outside my LBS. 🙁

Leaping to blame either way isn't the solution, though. That the truck driver may not have seen the cyclist in their blind spot is just as likely as the cyclist putting themselves in danger by going right in to that blind spot. The number of people I see going up the inside of vehicles turning left is simply scary. We're lucky we don't see way more of this.

Saw the picture of the bike on Twitter, horrific. 🙁

Leaping to blame either way isn't the solution, though. That the truck driver may not have seen the cyclist in their blind spot is just as likely as the cyclist putting themselves in danger by going right in to that blind spot. The number of people I see going up the inside of vehicles turning left is simply scary. We're lucky we don't see way more of this.

+1.

Its always tragic when a cyclist gets killed but I can't help but feeling that the government and cycling bodies could spend more time and money educating cyclists on safe road use as its still practically nil at the moment.

With it becoming more and more popular it will take this as well as modifications to HGV's etc to stem the flow of road deaths.

I NEVER cycle on either side of an HGV. I always stay behind - its the safest place to be and makes it extremely difficult for it to hit me...

Cheers

Danny B

Shocking photo of the aftermath of a very sad incident.

Its always tragic when a cyclist gets killed but I can't help but feeling that the government and cycling bodies could spend more time and money educating cyclists on safe road use as its still practically nil at the moment.

CZ - really, is this a southern thing? I have never seen anything up t'north on the telly about such things.

Good news if such ads are being shown somewhere...

Cheers

Danny B

Maybe HGV drivers should have training like this?

[url= http://www.standard.co.uk/news/london/cycleawareness-training-for-bus-drivers-just-bring-it-on-8562983.html ]Bus driver cycle awareness[/url]

Sad, sad news.

As above it is anyone's guess as to where (if any) blame lies.

Personally I think that HGVs only be allowed to access central London [i]out of hours[/i] to reduce pinch point incidents.

So sad.

Sadly this thing will happen from time to time. Humans were involved, humans don't always do the sensible thing, sometimes we all do foolish, silly things or things that defy sense. Fortunatly, this will normally result only in a dropped cup of coffee, a lost set of keys or some other minor inconvenience.

Tragically that's not always the case, as proved this morning.

Another person gone too early. Be careful out there everyone

Oops, double post.

IMO vehicles shouldn't be allowed on roads with blind spots not covered my mirrors.

IMO vehicles shouldn't be allowed on roads with blind spots not covered my mirrors.

So that cuts out all vans, a lot of big 4x4s, lorries, buses...
Going to be very quiet on them there roads...

As said above, mirrors only do so much - you can have as many mirrors as you want but if a driver is looking in Mirror 6 while a cyclist goes through Mirror 1, it doesn't make any difference. This thread isn't really the place for this surely?

RIP

IMO vehicles shouldn't be allowed on roads with blind spots not covered [s]m[/s]by mirrors.

And bicycles. Or do you have mirrors on your bike?

Due to EU regulations, all professional drivers have to complete CPC training. HGV and Bus drivers. Course covers many subjects, not only cyclists.
You will see cowboys anyway, be them cyclists or drivers. I think just because buses have CCTV and Driver+ (blackbox version) systems they don't misbehave like Truckers do.
Don't let me start spouting nonsense about Oxford street and its inhabitants.

So that cuts out all vans, a lot of big 4x4s, lorries, buses...
Going to be very quiet on them there roads...

Sounds lovely to me.

Right on the last junction where I turn left into work. One of my guys was unfortunate enough to see the body before they covered it up, on his way to make a delivery, this morning...

Always make spelling mistakes when I'm angry. I was careful not to leap to conclusions about who was to blame in this accident. I was blaming the haulage companies. I lot of the driving I see from large vehicles in London seems to be "I'm bigger than you, better get out of my way". Don't need mirrors on my bike I don't have any blind spots. Newer lorries have added mirrors but it's not required by law. It should be.
Personally I stay away from them as much as I can. The don't indicate half of the time.

And bicycles. Or do you have mirrors on your bike?

I'm not exactly likely to kill anyone though if I swipe them, same goes for pedestrians..

Using the road used to be a privilege rather than a right to just do as you please and if you kill someone, well never mind, it was an accident. Probably their fault for thinking about jumping a red light at some point in their life....

A woman run over by a tipper truck turning left. I wonder what the odds of that were? 🙁

We generally don't recommend people walk in the road, because road vehicle are big heavy and fast, and people are small light and slow. Where pedestrians have to walk in the road, we tell them to do so FACING the direction of traffic so that they may spot oncoming danger.

We give them 30lb of tubing and expect this all to change?

Cyclist should be allowed to ride on pavements sensibly. Mobility scooters do.

Due to EU regulations, all professional drivers have to complete CPC training

As I drive professionally, and haven't (and work for a VERY PC organisation), I'd say that isn't 100% accurate.

I NEVER cycle on either side of an HGV. I always stay behind - its the safest place to be and makes it extremely difficult for it to hit me...

Don't need mirrors on my bike I don't have any blind spots.
The don't indicate half of the time.

My girlfriend went under a lorry a few years ago. Lorry overtook her and turned left she was going straight. Her bike was crushed, she saw the underside of the lorry. She now gets as far as she can to the front of the road.

Someone pointed out to me a while back that workplace health and safety regulations mean that most of the trucks and lorries on our roads would not be permitted to operate at a place of work in the same conditions (i.e. surrounded by squishy people with no way to see them). They'd need all sorts of cameras, sensors and alarms, otherwise the operating company could be found negligent.

Shame no one seems to have an overall duty of care on the public roads.

People are squishy and fragile, vehicles are heavy and powerfull and have no emotions.

Stay away from big things that can crush and kill you.

Stay away from big things that can crush and kill you.

So basically you are saying just don't ride on the road then?

Until the country invests in high-quality segregated infrastructure then I can't see that happening any time soon. Even in the Cycling Utopias of the Netherlands people still have to ride on the road sometimes.

Given that lorries are 5% of London traffic but are involved in half of cycle fatalities there then perhaps a better solution is to ban lorries during rush hours?

RIP Unknown Cycle Woman - Too Young.

My thoughts with your friends and family.

Given that lorries are 5% of London traffic but are involved in half of cycle fatalities there then perhaps a better solution is to ban lorries during rush hours?

Force them to have decent mirrors to cover their blink spots and prosecute drivers who kill cyclists / pedestrians rather than let them off with a 'oh well it was just a squishy cyclist, never mind, try not to do it again and be on your way'.

Yep, that too footflaps.

A few years back, someone posted a link on here to a diagram of where the blind spots are on a truck; maybe if trucks had that diagram on the back, rather than just "If you can't see my mirrors I can't see you", people would realize how restricted the driver's visibility is and think twice before moving into blind spots...

Please note that I'm not trying to blame the victim, just suggesting a way to reduce casualties.

and think twice before moving into blind spots...

What if the lorry pulls up along side you and then turns across (and over) you......

A few years back, someone posted a link on here to a diagram of where the blind spots are on a truck; maybe if trucks had that diagram on the back

Or maybe we should just realise that it should be unacceptable to have heavy vehicles with massive blind spots driving at peak times through busy streets full of pedestrians and cyclists?

Along with extra mirrors can't the there be sensors/cameras fitted to the sides of trucks to make the driver aware of someone next to them. Surely they must exist. Or is it down to money, if so the government must introduce tougher standards. More needs to be done to make cyclists aware of the dangers as well.

I think there is still generally a bad attitude towards cyclists in this country still. Some of my local turd bus drivers are horrifically bad and constantly pull in when there next to you. But worst of all they don't seem to care!

I was thinking that footflaps, but not sure it's a good idea to start speculating. After all it is possible somebody who knows the unfortunate lady might read this - so far it's mostly been very reasonable comment I think.

can't the there be sensors/cameras fitted to the sides of trucks to make the driver aware of someone next to them.

Easy enough to design and fit a proximity sensor - like a car reversing sensor - but the trouble is that it would go off all the time (e.g truck next to railings, lamppost, junction box etc etc) so the driver would soon start ignoring it.

Cameras are a better plan but there are only so many screens and mirrors that one person can check every time they pull away from the lights.

I was thinking that footflaps, but not sure it's a good idea to start speculating.

I wasn't suggesting this happened, just that you can't generalise (as some have on here) and always blame the cyclist for being in the wrong.

Footflaps

Can I suggest that you go sit in the cab of a HGV and see what the driver has to contend with.

Its not just pedestrians/cyclist, but motorcyclists/car and van drivers all seem to have suicidal tendencies and will quite happily walk/ride/drive alongside HGV's at junctions.

More mirrors/sensors will only divert their attention even more.

And you'll find that HGV drivers are about the most skilled on the road, they have to be. The guy that delivers to us has to reverse for 1/2 mile as we haven't space for him to turn around. Imagine reversing an artic for 1/2 mile down a tree-lined narrow lane.

Well that's OK then, I suppose a few dead cyclists is a fine price to pay for not inconveniencing the poor HGV drivers....

And you'll find that HGV drivers are about the most skilled on the road

I think we've established on other driving threads that high levels of skill doesn't necessarily make a good driver.

The police spoke to him and didn't arrest him. Suggests he didn't do much wrong to me.

So many times I've seen people ride on the left hand side of stationary lorries. Makes my blood run cold. I think twice about stopping next to a truck in my car, let alone on my bike.

The police spoke to him and didn't arrest him. Suggests he didn't do much wrong to me.

Given all the reports I've seen of police taking action on traffic incidents involving cyclists, that isn't a very good assumption IMHO.

sit in the cab of a HGV and see what the driver has to contend with.... HGV drivers are about the most skilled on the road, they have to be.

See what you are doing here is acknowledging that HGVs are inherently difficult to drive safely, requiring a high degree of skill and perfect attention from the driver, and exemplary road-sense from those around them, to avoid killing anyone.

So given that humans are far from perfect, why do we allow HGVs to drive through very busy city streets at rush hour? Mistakes will happen - but perhaps if they happened when the streets weren't packed with people then the fatality figures might fall?

There is some new cab design. The drivers seat is positioned much lower and the windows are much bigger. It will probably be many years before we'll see any on the road.

aracer - Member
Given all the reports I've seen of police taking action on traffic incidents involving cyclists, that isn't a very good assumption IMHO.

Oh really? 🙁

i know its unusual on here but i am a cyclist.. so when today i almost saw someone almost sent on thier way to the pearly gates i was pretty livid..

older rider togged up in faded lycra , pedalling liesurly well out into the road so i slows and waits for a good gap in the traffic to get past giving plenty of room in the sprinter..
couple of mins later im waiting to turn left at a mini roundabout and who comes up on my inside.. only he's not indicating left as i am hes going straight on.. and didnt even pause to see why i was stopped.. cue one lady driver in tears and older rider in faded and now torn lycra calling each other names.. who was to blame..

Before most of deliveries were made at night in London. Then many residents complained about noise. These days deliveries made during daytime.

TuckerUK, I'm surprised your company doesn't send drivers for CPC. Guess due to different regulations some haulage companies can avoid extra expenditures.

London bus companies are regulated more heavily before awarding contracts, maybe that's why they are forced to train their personnel. Think all bus drivers must complete their course ( minimum of 35 hours every 5 years ) before 2013 September/October.

HGV have 1 extra year to comply to new rules.

I am an HGV driver and a cyclist (well as close as I can be for being a member on here), I think part of the learning to drive process should include half a day driving an HGV on private ground, they could let drivers see what we see in the cab when people tailgate, sneak up on the inside in the blindspot, cut in front at motorway junctions to save that precious few seconds and to let them see that cycling/driving up the inside is a very bad idea and and not a safe place to be.

All vehicles have blind spots, the size of HGV's just means they are bigger than the ones on cars etc, the law dictates that all HGV's must be fitted with front and side blind spot mirrors... That doesn't necessarily mean the driver will check them on a regular basis... Same as rear view mirrors on cars, the amount of people who don't look in them is unbelievable, same as wing mirrors, I have seen people driving along with them folded in... Proof that they aren't checking them...ever!

So before we get the pitchforks out there is blame on both sides, it is a tragedy they a family has lost a loved one in this manner but accidents happen.. How many accidents are caused everyday by cyclists, car drivers and van drivers. I see far worse driving from car drivers than any other road user.

I agree that putting HGV's into busy streets is very dangerous and in some cases daft. I'm all up for delivering good when the roads are quiet, I start my work before 4am most days and it makes it much easier when the roads are quiet, but then I'm not going into city centres very often. But sure as night follows day the same people who would back this campaign would soon tire of the noise at nights and say "why do they have to deliver so early/late?, can't they come during the day?"

Without lorries we get nothing! The transport system in this country was never designed to cope with the number of vehicles filling our road everyday.

Driver CPC training is mandatory for all UK HGV drivers.

So basically you are saying just don't ride on the road then?

Scarry stuff. Not quite a lorry but wow.

I drive an hgv around london daily, between 7am and 5pm. I'd much prefer too drive on quieter roads, but building sites, shops,etc, are only open for delivery, in the daytime.
Trucks are hard to drive, and some drivers are shit, so please give them space, so we can avoid any more pointless deaths.

As above it would be nice for all inner city deliveries to be compled during the dark hours, but who is going to pay for the staff,to man the depots,ofices,sites etc, who is going to design a quiet lorry, and silence the reversing sounds, air brakes etc, the clatter of goods being unloaded and the actual staff chatting or shouting.

Its not going to happen, so we need better education of cyclists as theyre the ones getting killed, and the driver has to live with that for life.

Perhaps ring round all your local shops and tell them you want theuir deliverioes to be made in the dark hours, so it doesnt affect possibly kill a cyclist once in a while.

Symapthy to the cyclist and the driver involved.

One day it could be either one for us as a driver or cyclist.

but building sites, shops,etc, are only open for delivery, in the daytime.

Evans Cycles actually experimented for a while with night time deliveries - don't know if they still do it?

The rationale behind it was that there is no congestion charge, the shops aren't open for business so there's no drop-off in customer service as staff drag crates in and out but also just that the strrets are quieter so deliveries are quicker and it's far less likely that you're going to knock anyone over.

On the other hand, it did cost them a lot extra in staff wages at that time of night!

But then Evans will only be haveing a few boxes of bikes and parts, as oposed to numeous rol cages or pallet truck deliveries.

Also what happens if the staff dont want to cover late night deliveries.

Okay so any reason that lorries for use in city centres couldn't look more like this:

[img] [/img]

[img] [/img]

[url= http://www.guardian.co.uk/lifeandstyle/2013/mar/19/cyclist-friendly-lorry-design-accidents ]As proposed by the London Cycling Campaign and reported in Teh Grauniad[/url]

If it is unacceptable to simply ban lorries at peak times then perhaps only lorries which are specifically designed for busy city streets should be allowed?

More details of the design here:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/bike-blog/2013/mar/20/cycle-safe-lorries

I'm always surprised by how easily people accept these deaths, surely it makes sense for the heaviest most dangerous vehicles to be able to see whats around them when driving in cities (a place where lots and lots of people live and walk/cycle about)??

Theres a description of an incident here... cyclist made eye contact with driver, he still didn't see her, and despite everyone screaming at him to stop, still took a few seconds to realise what was going on...
[img] [/img]
http://www.lfgss.com/thread74152.html

What education are you going to give cyclists/pedestrians? If a lorry comes up behind you, run away? Who's going to provide the education? The same councils that built filter lanes and ASL's precisely where the blind spots are?

From LFGSS:

Suddenly people started shouting "Stop! Stop!" and I could hear a rapid crunching/popping noise.

Turning round I saw an articulated lorry, driving toward the bridge.

On her back, knees bent and feet on the front bumper, was a lady who was being pushed along the ground by the lorry- her bike was just going under the front wheel which was the crunching/popping noise.

The driver was looking around him at all these people shouting "Stop! Stop!" and shrugging..

JESUS! H! CHRISTMAS!

Again: why do we allow HGVs to drive through busy city streets when their design means drivers can't see other road users from their cabs???

Does seem a bit stupid.

Buses and bin lorries have low seating position and wrap-around view. At least here they do. So the new lorry design pictured above is not exactly anything new.

And I'd say most HGVs in cities, between rush hours, probably aren't huge delivery lorries, but are... buses, bin men, etc. (and in central London, the bin men literally go round 2-3 times per day, not once per week).

So the lorry pictured above is not exactly anything new.

Yep - that was one of their key points. It is based on existing bin lorry design so the lorry companies can't brush it off as impossible.

e.g truck next to railings

Railings seem to be a road furnishing unique to UK. I've certainly never noticed them elsewhere. Can't someone get the cable thieves to steal them, rather than BT and Power lines?

Another example showing that lorry incidents are not just silly cyclists who position themselves up the inside of lorries:

(warning: contains some quite understandable swearing)

I believe the suggestion above of having prox sensors down the sides of lorries was implemented by a company (cemex possibly) after one of their drivers killed a girl in London by turning across when she had gone up the inside of him.

EDIT - Here we are - http://www.bikeradar.com/news/article/300th-cemex-vehicle-to-be-fitted-with-sensors-to-keep-vulnerable-road-users-safe-28547/

Why cant more/all companies do this or the truck bodies come with these as standard. It would work for all types, motorbikes, cyclists, cars, even pedestrians.

Treacle, was this the company where the mother of the dead girl became a shareholder and lobbied the board from within?

Re this business of sensors, some of us wrote to our MEPs but it wasn't enough:
[url= http://road.cc/content/news/59995-familys-disappointment-eu-shelves-hgv-safety-proposals ]good article here from road.cc[/url]

Yeah thats the one

This is a training video they made too.

She was named yesterday, very sad:

[url= http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2013/apr/10/british-scientist-katharine-giles-killed-cycling-accident ]http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2013/apr/10/british-scientist-katharine-giles-killed-cycling-accident[/url]

I try to educate other cyclists on their positioning whilst commuting if I see somebody doing something really daft.
it doesn't generally go down too well and people either look at you as if you're mental or tell you to do one (maybe I should use less swear words).
I generally follow motorcyclists when negotiating traffic - they seem to know what their doing and where to be - I guess because they've been trained properly.
what about a leafleting campaign sticking leaflets on people's bikes or having bike shops (and other shops) hand them out with purchases in stores? showing people how to stay out of trouble.

This is a training video they made too.

Powerful video and overall pretty good, but a couple of things:

It advises using ASLs (fine) but at 1:35 it shows two smiling happy cyclists getting to the ASL.. by going up the inside of the lorry. 😯
And the junction where Suzie is hit in the video is also an ASL, accessed by a lefthand cycle lane.

So I think they should probably have mentioned that using ASLs is sometimes good BUT only if you can get to them safely without going up the inside of large vehicles!

Also not sure I like the commentary at @5:25 that says [i]"many cyclists don't have any training, but share the road with users of cars and LGVs who are required by law to undergo training and pass a test"[/i] - I'm not sure that is true and I think it is dangerously close to playing the blame game.

I try to educate other cyclists on their positioning whilst commuting if I see somebody doing something really daft.

Good on you!

For all the stick that CycleGaz gets, I really enjoy [url= http://www.sillycyclists.co.uk/ ]his "Silly Cyclist" videos[/url]. They are a great example of cyclists trying to educate each other on the dangers they face.

The other problem with the new trucks for london idea based on refuse vehicle chassis is cost,who in their right meind is going to be able to fund specialist lorries for london, and also will they have the same carrying ability, same loading size eg roll cages or pallets or lose stuff, or will it be expected lorries unload at outer london and transfer their load to the low chasiss type for onward delivery.

YEP THAT WILL WORK,NOT,

I dont think thats the actual junction where she was killed, rather than an example of what happened. If I remember it was more 'in town' than that. There was a TV program about the entire incident, the aftermath for her family and how her mother hassled Cemex to do something about it. When they didnt she became a shareholder, went to the shareholders meeting and said her piece to all the directors. Brave woman.

I agree about the ASL's they tempt people to do what they shouldnt. There are a few round my way that run up the centre of the road where there is a straight on and a left turn only lane but its pretty rare. I do as above and tend to do as I would on a motorbike and overtake on the right in as many situations as I can. If nothing else you are on the drivers side to knock on their window if they do something stupid!

Aren't most London incidents with construction vehicles tippers and the like, with the drivers on some bonus or target structure, everyone and his dog making a wedge out of building and minimal consequences for makin a "mistake" good luck with fixing that one.

No one answer IMO, cyclist awareness part of all driving test, laws that make drivers responsible for other road users, vehicles fit for purpose, better road design to name a few.

I've worked in the transport industry since 1968 and never forgotten a piece of advise the old boys gave me back then. Which was 'never let your guard down around tippers and breadmen'. The breadmen have gone but the tipper's are still around in larger numbers.

All the usual crap from stw to show how much safer and cleverer than the victim you are. She had been riding in London for years, not some idiot.
Here's her website: http://www.katgiles.co.uk/

The other problem with the new trucks for london idea based on refuse vehicle chassis is cost,who in their right meind is going to be able to fund specialist lorries for london

Legislate!

Change the law to state that only "people friendly" designs of HGV are allowed to operate in populous areas between say 8 and 6.

Leave it up to the haulage/construction companies to decide if it is better for them to invest in safer designs or overnight deliveries.

Sadly I doubt any politician or lawmaker has the balls to do that. Profit is far more important than the lives of people that [i]can't even afford a car[/i].

im a bus driver, and im in and out of edinburgh semi regularly.
i never have cyclists riding up the nearside of my bus in heavy traffic, mainly because i leave about 1" space when i stop in such a situation.
the only way anyone can get past me, is if they use the pavement or the offside of the bus.
ive never had an accident with a cyclist, and tbh i rarely see any really bad examples of cycling.
for the record, i work for stagecoach in dunfermline, if i hit someone on a bike i would most likely be sacked, regardless of whether the police charged me or not.