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You wearing one at the moment dogbert?
badnewz
You asked about the legal qualifications of posters.......
A newspaper article of 1,000 words does not go into the kind of clinical detail that a fair legal trial demands.
Clearly you have none, as this was an inquest. Maybe you would need to see the autopsy before we can have the benefit of your full wisdom on the matter.
dogbert - Membershoot me, but they need to make the wearing of helmets compulsory
i understand the reaction, but there's safety in numbers.
compulsory helmet wearing = fewer cyclists = more dangerous for those left.
Cyclits use the road by right, car drivers are the ones licensed to be there and use our space.
Wrong Im afraid - as long as you pay your taxes you are entitled to use the public highway. As long as you have satisfied the necessary legal requirements of course.
Im SURE if sentencing became more harsh for this kind of thing drivers would bloody well think twice before trying to overtake..
sentencing is the least of our worries. This was a Coroners inquiry into the death, if he doesnt even think there's a case to answer, then there's naff all chance the rest of the judiciary are going to get a chance to either look at it or god forbid hold someone to account for it.
I wonder if the inquest was shown that google street view image? Because I took one look at that and saw there was not enough room for a cyclist, the cyclists safe distance from the kerb, and a car plus the overtaking minimum safe distance required.
Should be death by careless driving or something.
shoot me, but they need to make the wearing of helmets compulsory
Don't want to get sidetracked into a helmet debate.
A helmet may well have helped here. But the medical evidence suggests that compulsion would cause more harm (as a whole) than it would prevent, due to drops in numbers cycling. Hence why the British Medical Assoc were* against helmet compulsion.
(* until they were politically pressured to [url= http://www.mtbrider.com/showthread.php?184-BMA-do-a-U-turn-on-helmet-compulsion ]change their mind[/url])
shoot me, but they need to make the wearing of helmets compulsoryDoesn't excuse the fact that it should have been ruled death by dangerous or careless driving
Why oh why do we have to keep discussing helmets that provide negligible benefit, rather than talking about stuff that's actually going to make the roads safer (for everyone)?
Tomorrow, 24th April, there is a discussion in parliament about Cycle Safety.
http://www.parliament.uk/business/committees/committees-a-z/commons-select/transport-committee/news/ask-cycle-ministers/
The Minister for Roads, Mike Penning (thinks motorists [url= http://ipayroadtax.com/no-such-thing-as-road-tax/government-minister-sticks-to-his-mistaken-claim-that-motorists-pay-for-roads/ ]Pays for the roads[/url] ) has the view that cyclists just need to wear helmets, whereas Norman Baker doesn't. Its likely the whole thing will just be about that, thus it will be a massive waste of time.
Helmets are just a distraction from other issues.
sentencing is the least of our worries. This was a Coroners inquiry into the death, if he doesnt even think there's a case to answer, then there's naff all chance the rest of the judiciary are going to get a chance to either look at it or god forbid hold someone to account for it
Fair enough. Seems a more fundamental change in the mind-set is required then.
They really DONT want us on THEIR roads do they..
Why oh why do we have to keep discussing helmets that provide negligible benefit, rather than talking about stuff that's actually going to make the roads safer (for everyone)?
This
Don't seem right to me on reading it, but then again I'm not in full posession of the facts. Not sure what "facts" would make it any better mind!
A slight tangent.... a road reasonably local to me [url= http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?q=denmead&ll=50.900207,-1.059095&spn=0.000869,0.002642&oe=utf-8&client=firefox-a&hnear=Denmead,+Hampshire,+United+Kingdom&gl=uk&safe=vss&t=m&z=19&layer=c&cbll=50.900207,-1.059095&panoid=Irf7587A_qZ-ZpXBb1YlSQ&cbp=12,307.38,,0,12.75 ]link[/url].
They have put super short bike lanes on the road 20m or so either side of the islands in the road all the way up it (about 6 or 7 of them). I can see why a well meaning (non cycling) road planner might do this to try and give the cyclist some protection but it just seems wrong when you are on it. When cycling it feels like it's giving an impression of a road next to you when there isn't space that some muppet might want to try and use and squeaze past and it also would make a less experienced cyclist think that the painted bit is where they should be when (god I'm agreeing with TJ!) they should be right in the middle to prevent any daft overtaking. As a driver it feels totally wrong as you are forced to drive in the cycle lane as the remaining road left is nothing like wide enough for any car. Sometimes the road planners don't make it easy.
badnewzYou asked about the legal qualifications of posters.......
A newspaper article of 1,000 words does not go into the kind of clinical detail that a fair legal trial demands.
Clearly you have none, as this was an inquest. Maybe you would need to see the autopsy before we can have the benefit of your full wisdom on the matter.
This is very true - I have no legal training or qualifications whatsoever.
It is why I don't feel qualified to comment on the story - certainly not to question the verdict. I was pointing out that other people felt they could do so with a similar lack of legal training and qualifications.
When all the fuel runs out then we will have our day.
And anyone who has ever, ever ridden a bike, knows that the slightest "scuff" on your bars can be catastrophic. For a car to be close enough to "scuff" your bars is essentially driving without due care and attention IMO - although clearly I'm not in a legal position to judge.
My road bike sees little use these days and stories like that make me feel like it should stay that way.
[i]It is why I don't feel qualified to comment on the story [/i]
As a regular user of the roads on my bike and in my car, I feel more than qualified to comment. But thanks for your concern.
As a regular user of the roads on my bike and in my car, I feel more than qualified to comment. But thanks for your concern.
Of course, people are free to make comments. But from one short article the following comments have been left: a) the driver should suffer guilt for the rest of his life and b) there is systemic corruption in the legal system favouring drivers over cyclists.
I'm just pointing out that there may be more to this case than we know about. Obviously there are terrible drivers out there, but without having been there, I can't say that the involved driver here is one of them. And I don't see how anybody else can too.
From that streetview of it it looks like a mental place to choose to overtake, even without the parked cars. Road side on right, island for pedestrian crossings...
I haven't looked at all the links, but it would be interesting to see the road layout and other considerations. I wonder what led the coroner and the courts to rule accidental death and not apportion any blame.
It's a shame they don't share the evidence that was reviewed to make the judgement then we'd know exactly why that ruling was made.
I have no legal training or qualifications whatsoever.
It is why I don't feel qualified to comment on the story - certainly not to question the verdict.
The lack of a law degree should not prevent you from considering if justice has been done. Law is [i]supposed[/i] to represent the collective will of the common man.
You are (presumably) a cyclist and driver? Look at the Street View image: http://g.co/maps/2qh2x
Would you have passed a cyclist there? Do you think that is "enough room"?
just to add.....
Having clicked on the link with the photo of the junction/island assuming (I know, dangerous!) the cars were parked legally they would not have been parked on the double yellow lines around the island but a good 4-5 car lengths up the street. I wonder if the ruling came from the vicar moving across earlier than reasonably expected when the car was already mid overtake causing the swerve, clip then "scuff". Still should not have been attempting to overtake near that island in any case imo.
Wrong Im afraid - as long as you pay your taxes you are entitled to use the public highway. As long as you have satisfied the necessary legal requirements of course.
Paying your taxes maintains the roads and allows the car on it. To DRIVE the car one must be licensed!
I'm just pointing out that there may be more to this case than we know about.
Why wasn't it included in the article then?
Why wasn't it included in the article then?
Perhaps we should direct that question to the journalist.
I wonder if there is a publically accessed ruling online? I seem to recall that some court cases could be viewed online.
Unless there's something we really don't get to see in the evidence, [url= http://tinyurl.com/c92v7tx ]David Mitford[/url] has been somewhat lenient in his assessment that the driver was not at fault for initiating an overtake with an island ahead.
So lets get this straight.
Cyclist moves out to go around parked cars. Driver sees him do it. This is apparently a matter of record.
The road narrows, at this point driver has a [b]choice.[/b]
A Slow Down and pass cyclist after the obstruction
B Attempt to pass even though there may not be sufficient space.
Driver [b]makes choice[/b]. This choice results in the unfortunate death of the cyclist.
Obviously its an accident as the driver was not setting out to kill the cyclist but how the coroner can choose not to assign blame is absolutely ludicrous
The lack of a law degree should not prevent you from considering if justice has been done. Law is supposed to represent the collective will of the common man.You are (presumably) a cyclist and driver? Look at the Street View image: http://g.co/maps/2qh2x
Would you have passed a cyclist there? Do you think that is "enough room"?
You are right - everybody is entitled to an opinion irrespective of training. I would like to think I would not overtake there. And as a cyclist I have experienced one case of very bad driving.
My point remains that we do not know the full facts, and as I understand it this inquiry would have been extremely thorough - more thorough than we can hope to be by sharing google streetmap links. I was suggesting it is harsh to judge the people involved when we are relative outsiders to this particular, tragic event.
Firstly the Highway code says - and I quote -
211
It is often difficult to see motorcyclists and cyclists, especially when they are coming up from behind, coming out of junctions, at roundabouts, overtaking you or filtering through traffic. Always look out for them before you emerge from a junction; they could be approaching faster than you think. When turning right across a line of slow-moving or stationary traffic, look out for cyclists or motorcyclists on the inside of the traffic you are crossing. Be especially careful when turning, and when changing direction or lane. Be sure to check mirrors and blind spots carefully.
212
When passing motorcyclists and cyclists, give them plenty of room (see Rules 162-167). If they look over their shoulder it could mean that they intend to pull out, turn right or change direction. Give them time and space to do so.
213
Motorcyclists and cyclists may suddenly need to avoid uneven road surfaces and obstacles such as drain covers or oily, wet or icy patches on the road. Give them plenty of room and pay particular attention to any sudden change of direction they may have to make.
There are obviously "unknowns to joe public in terms of info available to the coroner, but that does not excuse the drivers decision to complete his overtake. Morally, of course it smacks of injustice, and you can bet your bottom dollar if some loved up actor or MP was run over then there WOULD be hell to pay.
b) there is systemic corruption in the legal system favouring drivers over cyclists.
relative outsiders to this particular, tragic event
Yes to the event, but not the scenario. Anyone with any experience of cycling on the road can see exactly what's happened here because we have all experienced the scenario.
Paying your taxes maintains the roads and allows the car on it. To DRIVE the car one must be licensed
Correct.
Hence why I said
As long as you have satisfied the necessary legal requirements of course.
Your point being?
Paying your taxes maintains the roads
If you mean Road Tax as its is incorrectly know. Wrong.
Vehicle excise duty goes into general tax fund. There is no direct link between tax raised from vehicle excise duty and the money spent on roads.
Vehicle excise duty is a tax on your vehicle based on emmissions, not a tax on using the roads.
[url= http://ipayroadtax.com/ ]http://ipayroadtax.com/[/url]
If you mean Road Tax as its is incorrectly know. Wrong.
Did I mention "road-tax"?
Nope.
I was suggesting it is harsh to judge the people involved when we are relative outsiders to this particular, tragic event.
Yep. It is a fair point and I usually dislike these witch hunt threads for that very reason, but I find it very hard to reconcile the verdict, that Street View image and this one from the Highway Code:
[img] 
[/img]
Or indeed Rule 167:
[b]DO NOT[/b] overtake where you might come into conflict with other road users. For example• approaching or at a road junction on either side of the road
• where the road narrows
...
Did I mention "road-tax"?Nope.
That's all right then.
What Graham S said
It is pretty clear he could not legally overtake he tried and now someone is dead HowTF is that not the driver's fault
What other findings can a coroner make, and what meaning might this have?
Seems even the testimony of the Copper was biased IMO.
I know that road well, having lived in heaton for over 10 years. it connects two areas where congestion is bad, and I've alwyas found it to be a awful road to cycle on. the presence of a school does not stop speeding and aggressive driving, as drivers try to rush to the next traffic jam, the road is covered in parked cars, traffic islands and blind junctions.
hang on, this was an inquest; its purpose to determine cause of death, not to decide whether any law-breaking had happened?
this will obviously influence a criminal trial or civil proceedings, but are either of these things going to happen? or will they just take the coroner's verdict and file this as 'accidental'?
Geez only been reading forums a few days and its far too common.
First OK would he have survived with a helmet? Such a shame if the answers yes but that does not mitigate the actions of the driver.
It looks very much like at that pinch point there would be enough room to pass a cyclist. However clipping a kerb would not make you swerve violently. How close was he. Sounds like the cyclist claimed the road, which is correct to protect his space comming to the island and the driver thought 10 seconds of his time worth the life of another human being. He could have slowed to allow the cyclist through if there was any doubt in his ability to judge the space.
Verdict not an accident!
My thoughts are with his family.
Maybe as we have a great deal of actvity on here we should start a petition to parliament, particulrly after Mr Addison Lee's comments.
That's all right then.
Pleased to hear it.
Maybe as we have a great deal of actvity on here we should start a petition to parliament, particulrly after Mr Addison Lee's comments.
Perhaps join The Times' #cyclesafe campaign, which does at least seem to have caused some debate recently if nothing else.
Although I see [url= http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/public/cyclesafety/article3391010.ece ]"Mr Addison Lee" is a #cyclesafe backer[/url] 🙄
It looks very much like at that pinch point there would be enough room to pass a cyclist.
Physically yes but not safely IMO.
> It looks very much like at that pinch point there would be enough room to pass a cyclist.Physically yes but not safely IMO.
Or in a way that obeys the Highway Code, or common sense.
Call it what you will, careless, dangerous or thoughtless driving, killing people isn't a problem if they happen to be riding their bike.
There's a deep seated lack of respect for our lives in the media, the courts, the coroner's office, the general public. There's also an underlying message that cyclists are somehow to blame: not
wearing a helmet, swerving around a pothole, whatever.
There needs to be a major shift in attitudes and deterrent sentences for bad driving would be a good start. But while we have anti-cyclist sentiment being stirred up by publicity hungry no-bodies and the state turning a blind eye I can't see things changing.
lack of respect
I think that's it in a nutshell stick_man. A total lack of respect.
Out with the kids in a trailer on Friday, had to hit a slightly busy stretch of road for about 400yds. Big tanker comes up behind me, cue much revving of engine and dramatic gear changes (he'd have seen me in plenty of time, so it was all for effect) before he passed me on a solid white line and cut back in sharply, making sure I knew (in his eyes of course) I'd held him up and I shouldn't be there. No respect at all for my right to be there and for the safety of me and my kids.