Forum menu
@5lab, probably ~10000 years. It's been a simmering pile of tinder for at least all the time there has been scripture. It only ever works when there are moderates on both sides. What there is now is the worst of both worlds. I can only see this escalating horrifically.
The disaster that befell Israel on the holiday of Simchat Torah is the clear responsibility of one person: Benjamin Netanyahu. The prime minister, who has prided himself on his vast political experience and irreplaceable wisdom in security matters, completely failed to identify the dangers he was consciously leading Israel into when establishing a government of annexation and dispossession, when appointing Bezalel Smotrich and Itamar Ben-Gvir to key positions, while embracing a foreign policy that openly ignored the existence and rights of Palestinians.
Or Iran
Wasn't there a snippet from the US state department last night, that as far as they can see Iran has played no part in this or its funding.
But feel free just to throw out these unsubstantiated statements.
Wasn’t there a snippet from the US state department last night, that as far as they can see Iran has played no part in this or its funding.
I think this more to do with the US unfreezing some sanctioned cash, which can only be spent on food / humanitarian aid. US MAGA types were posting that the unfrozed funds were use to finance this attack. See also ukraine weapons being used and other nonsense
Haaretz agrees with DrJ, Netanyahu has helped bring this about. I'm sitting in a bar in GC mildly worried that the Berbers might comeback from 2000 yrs ago and declare a dry state.
more on what's known on Irans involvement so far https://twitter.com/glcarlstrom/status/1711260669696250295
No, it doesn’t. This is just classic whataboutery. What Hamas did this week was just pure sadistic murder of civilians, with absolutely no military purpose. Hamas and Israel have been in a simmering conflict for many years. The Israeli government gambled that it was best to just contain it rather than try to resolve the underlying issues. Along with many other people, I think that was a profoundly wrong approach, but the conflict was contained. What Hamas did, apparently with Iranian backing, was to blow the conflict into an utterly brutal all-out war so it’s no longer contained. That’s because Hamas (or Iran) decided it was in their interests to escalate to a full-on war.
What Israel has not done is follow Hamas’s example of kidnapping civilians off the street, raping and torturing them, and then murdering them just for fun. Nor have they made videos of old people being murdered and posted them online to energize their followers. What Israel has done is the very first thing that any country in an open war does – they have blockaded their opponent. Did anybody imagine for a second that a blockade wouldn’t be the first thing they did?
Im sorry; now you just sound like an apologist for Israeli war crimes. Everything you say Hamas have done, Israel has done many times over. Kidnap, rape and torture are all part of the tactics used by IDF units and soldiers. Israel has also cut off power and drinking water supplies, poisoned wells, bombed schools and hospitals, and carried out myriad other atrocities. It's clear from your clear bias and partisanship that you have no interest in acknowledging the crimes on all sides. You clearly have an agenda, and that's your choice, but you can't be considered a reasonable contributor to a debate if you refuse to acknowledge facts.
The disaster that befell Israel on the holiday of Simchat Torah is the clear responsibility of one person: Benjamin Netanyahu.
Likewise, I disagree with this. The responsibility lies on both sides, with the leadership of both Hamas and the Israeli government. Because both are guilty of atrocities and war crimes. As the leader of a so-called democracy, Netanyahu has a responsibility to act proportionately and within international law, which he is clearly not doing so. But to blame him alone is not only disingenuous, it's also dangerous, as it fails to recognise the greater picture. There are many in the current Israeli government and beyond, who are more than willing to escalate this situation, and there are those in Hamas driven by near-identical ideology, so together it's an absolute disaster. Of course the balance of power lies with Israel, but even if peace were to suddenly break out, you would still need to deal with the fundamentalist extremists on both sides. It is really not a black and white situation.
The Israeli government gambled that it was best to just contain it rather than try to resolve the underlying issues. Along with many other people, I think that was a profoundly wrong approach, but the conflict was contained
It was only contained in the sense Hamas never tried such a large scale and coordinated attack before, they have now. A lot of blame needs to be laid at the door of Western countries to, especially the US - the policy of publicly backing Israel regardless of what they did, whether due to the strength of the pro-Israeli lobby or through fear of any criticism being portrayed as anti-Semitism instead of anti-Zionism, just enabled the current Zionist Israeli government to continue ever more draconian oppression of the Palestinian people without fear of losing the Western support they need. I'm sure some behind-the-scenes diplomacy went on to try and curtail the Israeli government but clearly it didn't amount to much.
oh this might be the thing you mean @dyna-ti
https://twitter.com/NPRinskeep/status/1711324910415470655
there is also https://twitter.com/yossi_melman/status/1711253641573584970
Likewise, I disagree with this.
Sorry, as BillMC spotted I just cut and pasted from Haaretz. The point was just to say that even in Israel it’s possible to go beyond the Daily Mail-style cliches and over-simplifications.
The Russian view on all this tells you all you need to know about who is driving these events, and why.
Its no surprise the Russians/Iran etc are behind the recent conflict/war/slaughter as the west has managed the sum total of absolutely ****-all for the Palestinians over the previous 60+years while appeasing the Israelis with aid, financial help and military help, when you have no where else to turn for help where do you turn?.
when you have no where else to turn for help where do you turn?
Up thread, ernie pointed out that the Palestinians are paying the price for what the Europeans have done to the Jews for centuries, and @brownperson points out that it's capitalism, I'd add to that, the regional powers using it as a proxy for their power-manoeuvring. However you slice it, the Palestinians end up paying the price for all of it, and I don't think they have anyone who is their true friends, they just seem to be the group of people that the world has agreed can be exploited and killed without consequence.
I don't think this Israeli govt is capable of peace and I don't think Hamas is either. all they're capable of is death and horror.
It was only contained in the sense Hamas never tried such a large scale and coordinated attack before, they have now. A lot of blame needs to be laid at the door of Western countries to,
I believe that Israel called it "cutting the grass" or something. They would try and target the worst of the Hamas militant on the assumption that they could contain the conflict indefinitely.
The problem with Hamas, which is glaringly obvious now, is that they are an extremely dangerous militant group who have no interest in a negotiated peace. Everyone knew that before and no Western country was going to openly support them. Now that the world has seen the images of the last few days, Hamas are completely discredited. They are utterly toxic and no Western country will even be willing to talk to their leaders in secret. No improvement in the lives of Gaza citizens will be possible until Hamas are out of power because no Western country will want to be seen to support Hamas.
I'm a bit worried about regular references to Iran. The US has a warship in the area, a mate in the RAF has been on exercises in the Eastern Med for months. Let's hope this doesn't escalate further. Iran's govt is shite but change must come from within not bombing the shit out of the place.
Let’s hope this doesn’t escalate further.
Just as well we don't have an American election anytime soon.........Ohh wait!
Finer said neither the US nor Israel have evidence of direct Iranian involvement, though Iran is “complicit” in backing Hamas for “decades.”
Holds as much water as a WSJ article.
This is the funny thing about proof, in that you need actual evidence, not hearsay, not speculation, Evidence, and of that there appears to be none presently.
Iraq.WMD - That went well.
Its no surprise the Russians/Iran etc are behind the recent conflict/war/slaughter
The only people I've found saying this are the more exictable members of the ukraine focused crowd on twitter
for example: https://twitter.com/berlin_bridge/status/1711012943209328771
It seems there isn't much evidence to support this yet, maybe more will come out. Here's a take by someone who's spent a lot of time studying this:
https://twitter.com/RZimmt/status/1711335860170342865
wasn’t the reason it was put there that jewish people had been kicked out of the area a couple of thousand years previously?
The persecution of Jews does of course go back thousands of years, from the time of the Babylonian exile through to more recent mass expulsions from Spain and finally, in some people's lifetimes, the persecution and mass murder of Jews on an industrial scale by various European governments and their cohorts.
It is worth remembering that for the last couple of thousand years repression and persecution of Jews has almost exclusively been at the hands of Europeans and Russians.
In fact a golden period in Jewish history was when Jews were allowed to live freely and follow their customs and religion in Islamic Spain.
After the fall of Islam in Spain which eventually resulted in all Jews being expelled, the Islamic Ottoman Empire, which stretched across North Africa and the Middle East, offered them refuge and the opportunity to live in peace - something which continued to be denied to them across much of Europe until about 80 years ago.
It should also be remembered that Palestinians are Jews who converted to Christianity and/or Islam. Although there are now very few Christian Palestinians left in Palestine. Presumably Christians have found it easier to immigrate out of Palestine than Muslims.
It seems there isn’t much evidence to support this yet, maybe more will come out. Here’s a take by someone who’s spent a lot of time studying this:
The exact relationship/command structure may be hazy, but Hamas seems have managed to secure quite a bit of kit for this offensive, including drones/paragliders, even some US weaponry that may have come from Afghanistan via the Taliban. It's certainly not a home-grown Gaza effort.
Tactically, this is going nowhere, regardless of brief occupation of some towns around Gaza. It's a 'shock and awe' mission designed to provoke a response. The ordinary people of Gaza obviously do not benefit from this, but who does?
All true Ernie but it's only about religion. Reactionaries try to ossify religion into 'race' (not a term meaningful to anthropologists) and exploit it to benefit whoever's ruling and to divide and weaken the hoi polloi. What is needed is for Israel to show leadership by becoming a democratic secular state where all its people are valued equally.
though Iran is “complicit” in backing Hamas for “decades.”
It should not come as any surprise to anyone that Iran, and other Islamic countries, don't support Israel and instead back the Palestinian resistance.
But Iran's influence over Hamas should not be exaggerated - Iran cannot even get Hamas not to oppose Syria's Bashar al-Assad.
Which IMO is quite a big deal - Iran strongly supports Bashar al-Assad and AFAIK Hezbollah is providing him with military support.
US weaponry that may have come from Afghanistan via the Taliban
Do you have a source for this one? I have some but only russian gov / propaganda sources and then later their western useful idiots. Ditto Ukrainian weapons / aid being used.
What is needed is for Israel to show leadership by becoming a democratic secular state
20 years ago, that might have been possible, The leadership of both Netanyahu and Haniyeh has all but made that a dream, there's to much blood flowing in the streets. While Likud keep winning elections and Haniyeh skims 20% of everything that comes through the tunnels, what incentive has either to make peace? Plus if anything Israel is becoming more religious not less, the demographics of secular Jews vs Frummers is unwinnable
Like it or not, that’s the reality. Israel exists... The only way to achieve a peace settlement is for Israeli moderates to regain power and for moderate Palestinian leaders to accept Israel’s existence and show that they can prevent attacks on Israel from within Palestinian territory.
While I quite agree with you that Hamas rejectionism ignores an immutable reality, it is also worth noting that many extremist/terrorist groups moderate their theoretical position (or just lose popular support) once engaged in a peace process.
Also, "moderate Palestinian leaders" accepted Israel's right to exist 30 years ago in the form of the Oslo I Accord.
Also, a big part of the reason why Hamas is so popular is that Israel undermined "moderate" Palestinian government and civil society by making the PNA unviable, ineffective and tainted by their "collaboration" with the Israelis...and by ensuring Gaza was a prison camp with no possible way to develop or release pressure. No free travel abroad, no secure connection the West Bank, no viable industry. Of course Palestinian society and governments bear their own responsibility for some of these failures and disastrous choices too.
I’m not super clued up on the area, but wasn’t the reason it was put there that jewish people had been kicked out of the area a couple of thousand years previously?
Unfortunately this is the kind of lazy, inaccurate history that results in profound misunderstanding. It is not true, as has suggested as some moments above, that the Jews were all kicked out 2000 years ago and Israelis are just a bunch of Europeans that showed up after WW2 and stole a country called Palestine because they think Jews were there first. All of that is totally wrong, and a few minutes on Wikipedia would have brought you so far.
One thing this discussion illustrates is just how complicated and entrenched this conflict is, with so many reasons for historical bitterness between the two sides. In a situation like Northern Ireland the hardliners on both sides realised, after a generation of fruitless conflict, that accepting a compromise agreement was the least bad option.
Unfortunately in the Palestinian / Israeli case, with the outside parties involved such as Iran and the US feeling so little consequences of supporting a protracted conflict, the situation could rumble on until the next century.
Yep, and how many lives, particularly young lives, will be terminated by these mercenary bastards?
It seems like US will have a really good reason to block Iranian arms exports now.
All true Ernie but it’s only about religion.
No it isn't about religion, over three-quarters of Israel's Jews define themselves as secular.
It is about racism and colonialism.
As I said previously Palestine is the last colony of the great western powers, do you not think it is strange to talk of "settlers" and their rights in 2023?
And why the desperate need to maintain one final western colony? Because of the huge importance of the Middle East to the western powers.
They couldn't give a monkeys about other regions of the world, such as West Africa, no matter what wars are being fought or what human misery is occurring, because other regions of the world don't match the importance the Middle East has to the West.
Israel is one of the greatest military powers on earth, and it is slap bang in the Middle East. It can, and does, keep anti-western sentiments and governments in check.
The Israeli ambassador to the United Nations yesterday made a speech in which he declared that Israel wasn't just fighting to defend itself from Hamas but also fighting for the free world, which is obviously why we should support them.
And that support is based on racism. The Israelis are pretty much European/American, the Palestinians clearly aren't. Yesterday I saw the deputy mayor of Jerusalem, a member of the far-right Likud Party, on the BBC News channel being given a 10 minute platform to give her take on things.
She spoke in absolutely perfect English, which was of no surprise as she is British born and bred. She didn't look particularly Middle Eastern either. You can imagine that many TV viewers would have personally identified with her.
Later a Palestinian politician was interviewed by the BBC (he had a lot more interruptions than the Israeli had) he spoke English with a strong and very obvious accent, and he definitely appeared Middle Eastern. You can imagine that for many viewers he will have been identified as just another foreign Muslim, the sort who arrive in the UK in a small boat.
Race is at the heart of the issue imo, not religion.
Edit: It is worth pointing out that the importance of the Middle East to the West will obviously diminish as the importance of oil also diminishes over time. And there lies the problem for Israel - eventually the world is unlikely to care very much. Not just Western governments but also new emerging super powers/economies such as China and India
Apologies Ernie, I was being simplistic. Hats off to you for holding a consistent line. The ME is always interesting on here. It brings out people who you've never seen on the trails, people with insubstantial understanding who try to conceal their ignorance and/or prejudice by hurling insults and pisstakes, and then the DM type people who read the headlines and start screaming.
On countless occasions I organised lectures by the FoI, mostly the director, and representatives of the Palestinians, not at the same time to give freedom of expression.
Anecdotally, the students tended not to agree with the idea that you could turn the desert green by pulling up olive trees, redirecting water away from Palestinian villages and demolishing their houses.
Unfortunately this is the kind of lazy, inaccurate history that results in profound misunderstanding. It is not true, as has suggested as some moments above, that the Jews were all kicked out 2000 years ago and Israelis are just a bunch of Europeans that showed up after WW2 and stole a country called Palestine because they think Jews were there first. All of that is totally wrong, and a few minutes on Wikipedia would have brought you so far.
after 5 minutes on wikipedia the above is my exact understanding. Most jewish people left the area after the jewish roman wars
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish%E2%80%93Roman_wars
and the idea of coming back started in the late 19th century (A fair bit earlier than your statement),
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zionism
and we area today where we are due (in a large part) to those 2 facts. What am I missing? I'm not saying someone is right or wrong, but the fact jewish people were mostly in what's now israel 2000 years ago is surely a huge part of the reason why their descendants want to be there now? I don't think the term 'stolen' is helpful, but it wasn't something I said.
One thing this discussion illustrates is just how complicated and entrenched this conflict is
Very much this. I have Israeli friends and colleagues through work and visit every few months. Each time I'm there I learn a little bit more about the people, culture, and challenges and I still don't really understand the depth of it. I spoke to a friend in Tel Aviv this morning and there is one thing for sure - regardless of why or how this has happened it is having a very real affect on ordinary people over there. Most of them have grown up with conflict and are used to it, going to bomb shelters / safe spaces is almost second nature, but they are really worried about the current situation.
No it isn’t about religion, over three-quarters of Israel’s Jews define themselves as secular.
You can't write it out in those sorts of black and white terms, it's not as simple as that, or as cleanly defined. You simply can't can't remove the religious element of this conflict and pretend that's its solely about racism, or ethnicity and settlement- although it is about those things as well. It may suit a political perspective, or that religion is so embarrassingly "olden times" for the 21st C, but for many of the people who are unwilling to support moves to peace on either side, [hatred of others] religion is front and centre of their reasoning.
I’m not saying someone is right or wrong, but the fact jewish people were mostly in what’s now israel 2000 years ago is surely a huge part of the reason why their descendants want to be there now?
Do you really not see a problem with that?
You simply can’t can’t remove the religious element of this conflict
I wouldn't. But I think it plays a very small part. Racism and colonialism* is what lies at the heart imo, not religion. And not least because the overwhelming majority of Israelis don't consider themselves religious.
Edit: And of course geopolitics/scarce resources.
I'm Jewish though not religious.
We have lots of family/friends in Israel, today I watched the funeral of the British 20 year old solider who was murdered yesterday by terrorists not fighters or militants TERRORISTS. I know his parents, watching their faces today was beyond heart-breaking.
The girl that was murdered by terrorists and put on show naked then spat and kicked /250 party goers murdered that's an act of terrorism, how can anyone support that - there will be hundreds of awful stories coming out in the days the days ahead.
You can talk to the cows come home how wrong you think Israel is - however they are not terrorists in anyway they don't parade dead bodies or parade naked teenage girls who have probably been raped.
No war ever ends happily for any side, that's the nature of war.
however they are not terrorists in anyway
I'm not sure everyone would agree, if you look at the number of civilians that have been killed by israel, they are certainly in a dubious area when it comes to war crimes. I'm not sure if that falls into the bucket of terrorism or not, the definition is apparently
the unlawful use of violence and intimidation, especially against civilians, in the pursuit of political aims.
I don't know if the label is helpful, but its not a million miles away
EVERYONE here is as horrified by the actions we witnessed as you are, EVERYONE
But we are also dismayed by the actions of the Israeli government and people that we have all been made acutely aware of that has gone on for the last 60+ years.
People are now demanding answers for those actions over the last 60 years and the only response we are getting is 'Look at what has happened yesterday to those killed or kidnapped'.
As I said previously Palestine is the last colony of the great western powers, do you not think it is strange to talk of “settlers” and their rights in 2023?
And why the desperate need to maintain one final western colony? Because of the huge importance of the Middle East to the western powers.
So, if the whole idea of Israel is to set up a Western Colony to subdue the Muslims, why did the Brits try to prevent Jewish settlers moving to Israel after WW2 & why did we then leave a country we were in control of & when war erupted in 1948 why did the Western powers impose an arms embargo on all belligerents despite Israel being attacked on all sides. I don't think the historical narrative really supports your theory.
I’m Jewish though not religious.
I'm Jewish and religious. Also with family and friends in Israel.
Agree with the Hamas part, not 100% with the Palestine part. Israel certainly aren't blameless here, sadly there's a lot of problems on both sides.
While admitting to not having read this whole thread, or even most of it, there seems to be a lot of talk about blame and history without much thought about what to do now?
Anyone got ideas for solutions? I believe Hamas call for the slaughter of all Israelis (and Jews? not sure) and will not be content with a 2 state solution. These are people who hand out sweets and cheer after "natural response's" like this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011_Itamar_attack
There is years of festering hatred on both sides, since well before the state of Israel was founded. Many innocents on both sides caught up in it.
OK it is Shakespeare's, but Im feeling theres irony in Shylock's speech when placed in the Palestinian perspective.
If you prick us with a pin, don’t we bleed? If you tickle us, don’t we laugh? If you poison us, don’t we die? And if you treat us badly, won’t we try to get revenge? If we’re like you in everything else, we’ll resemble you in that respect
Anyone got ideas for solutions?
the 2 state solution seems like the most likely to work - I think a secular solution is unlikely to work for a group who've been so roundly abused over the years - it feels like a sliperly slope.
Maybe the rest of the world could apply enough sanctions to the countries who aren't complying to the 2-state solution (on both sides) to encourage them to comply? Israel is very connected from an economy perspective, and would do badly if cut off from the rest of the world.
Israel certainly commits war crimes and it certainly carries out collective punishments, both of which can reasonably be described as terrorism. And Israel definitely tries to strike terror into the hearts of the Palestinian people with their regular one-sided onslaughts and turkey shoots into Gaza.
For that reason I consider the IDF to be a terrorist organisation which engages in horrific war crimes and violates international law. I guess the question is whether Hamas is also a terrorist organisation? Well it certainly also engages in horrific war crimes and violates international law, as we have seen recently.
Although it has been less than a year since the UK decided that Hamas as an organisation should be declared terrorist. I guess that must reflect Hamas's fairly low level of terrorism until quite recently for that to take such a long time.
today I watched the funeral of the British 20 year old solider who was murdered yesterday by terrorists not fighters or militants TERRORISTS. I know his parents, watching their faces today was beyond heart-breaking.
I can truly believe how beyond heartbreaking that must have been for those close to him, but the death of a soldier of an occupying force does not necessarily equate with terrorism. It sounds like a legitimate target which is why it isn't necessarily classed as terrorism under international law.
Although I appreciate that such subtleties mean nothing when you have lost someone close to you.
Palestinians also bury their dead - those that are killed, including children, by the IDF. Their tears are just as real as Israeli tears. But yet despite representing far far greater numbers they are extremely unlikely to have any connection with anyone on stw.
Edit: Apologies, it is just under two years since the UK decided to declare the whole of Hamas a terrorist organisation, not one as I had claimed.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-59346441
Two states I can see as Israel dominating a dependent and impoverished Palestinian state. Jews live happily with goys all over the world, why can't Israelis live with the locals as equals? If people don't change you will always get what you got. The hasideem seem happy enough opposing zionism and living in Brooklyn and Stamford Hill with allsorts and they have great hats.
The girl that was murdered by terrorists and put on show naked then spat and kicked /250 party goers murdered that’s an act of terrorism, how can anyone support that – there will be hundreds of awful stories coming out in the days the days ahead.
You can talk to the cows come home how wrong you think Israel is – however they are not terrorists in anyway they don’t parade dead bodies or parade naked teenage girls who have probably been raped.
Im sorry, I understand that this is an incredibly emotive subject, and that some people here may well have some personal involvement via relatives, friends etc, but we must be mindful of not obscuring facts here. It has been well documented that Israelis soldiers have committed unspeakable acts and atrocities, including rape, torture, and the desecration of dead bodies. Such events are rarely spoken about in most of the western media, but these events have and continue to take place. I am not for a moment trying to diminish the evils of Hamas, before anyone tries to accuse me of such. But we must remain as objective as possible, to try to understand and not sink to base hatred and anger. To see some of the videos that are being disseminated, makes me feel physically sick. As a Muslim, I have nothing but utter contempt for the sick twisted bastards that are doing this, and terrorising innocent people. When I speak of compassion, empathy and understanding, I know that this can only go so far. As a Muslim, I totally denounce the actions of these individuals; they do not act in the name of Islam and decent people everywhere must not allow them to be associated with the religion and culture. Therefore I think it is important to distinguish Hamas from Islam. They lost their right to call themselves Muslims the moment they decided to murder and terrorise innocent people. For them, there will be no martyrdom.
My wife is Jewish. We are now very concerned about 'retaliatory' actions by ignorant zealots here in London. We live in an area with a prominent Jewish community. I often have to deal with low-level anti-Semitism from ignorant individuals, but the idea that someone might want to kill my wife simply because of her heritage, is one that fills me with anguish. The knowledge that there are so many people in our world, today mourning their loved ones who did nothing wrong, is so upsetting I can't put it into words. Like many, I feel powerless and helpless. So let's all take a step back and have a think about how our words can help, or hurt others. Let's be guided by our compassion and humanity, and not our rage.
Jews live happily with goys all over the world
You must have skipped over the pogroms. And the whole holocaust thing. And the post-1948 expulsion of Jews from Arab countries. Actually the track record of Jews living as a minority among gentiles is a pretty bleak one.
And the ultra-Orthodox in London and NYC that oppose Zionism for religious reasons that you seem to be enthusiastic about are relatively small in number, and not a shining example of multiculturalism, and generally not great people - not because they oppose Zionism, but because they are like all religious fundamentalists - crackers.
the 2 state solution seems like the most likely to work
A 2 state solution in which both states are viable and retain their character would require significant population transfer and no right of return for Palestinians. And a 1 state solution does not offer enough security or anything else for anyone.
OK it is Shakespeare’s, but Im feeling theres irony in Shylock’s speech when placed in the Palestinian perspective.
Deity on a velocipede. Is bringing the most notorious anti-Semitic caricature in the Western canon into the dicussion supposed to shed light?