[Closed] Americans - Why are they so religious?

I think he is a remarkable educator nothing really to do with the god book. I expect he is dammed if he does or doesn't.

God (creator) <--------> Dawkins (carbon)

Both from the same coin.

Both extreme.

🙄

Properly lol at Yunki 🙂 And saddened by the bigots 🙁

Elfin do you really believe that, really?

Er, it's actually true. What's he really saying that hazzunt bin said before? He just dresses up the same old same old in fancy packaging and a load of 'intellectual' waffle and in a manner that appeals to folk who are a bit too scared to really think for themselves, to be perfectly honest.

I'm surprised and I suspect you're in a minority.

As a genius, I am used to being in a minority. 😐

I'm also brown.

And Left-Handed.

And born on the rarest day in the Christian calendar.

[img] [/img]

OK.

re Dawkins

sorry fred, I'm with you and chewy ( 😯 )

he's as irritating as all the other proselytisers (?) / zealots - the spaghetti people are much better value

I expect he is [b]damned[/b] if he does or doesn't.

Just reading The God Delusion now. I feel that Dawkins raises several excellent points in thought provoking ways.
As for him being very one-sided, well, most books are*.
Nobody wants to read middle of the road, namby-pamby, wishywashyness.

I bought Karen Armstrong's The Case For God at the same time 🙂

Quite a good biologist though. You'd think the god delusion was all he'd ever written.

And OP: apart from the fact that "they" mention God "a lot" do you have any evidence that America is particular religious?

Anecdotal, but my mate worked in Colorado for a couple of years. The whole company gathered every morning for a (Christian only) prayer before work began.

That was pretty normal practise round there. Everyone was expected to attend.
I don't think there's many workplaces in the UK where that happens.

My brother lives in Michigan and we sometimes discuss the weirdness of Americans. He reckons that it's because they have little history to distract them while they are only really a few generations away from the settlers, which also explains their god-fearing pioneering mentality, their paranoia and their love of weapons.

The (insert denomination here) church is simply a publicity machine, (hell?) bent on making money. Which it is exceedingly good at, considering how many books it has sold.
I find it about as culturally significant as N-Dubz though.

There you go Elfin, FTFY.

I don't personally think they are THAT religious. They just use religion as a mandate to do some truly awful things around the world.

3,000 people killed on 9/11.

Over 100,000+ Iraqi's since 2001 as a consequence of America's actions.

No more IRA fundraising dinner/functions being held on American soil though.

hora +1

I am slightly bemused by the treatment of 911 by the worlds media, I can understand it being a big story in the US itself, but its importance as a media event outweighs its real importance.

911 3000 dead
Bhopal 18000 dead
Rwanda 800,000 slaughtered
Congo 5,000,000 dead.

I'm with Fred - dawkins is a one trick pony. I couldn't be bothered after the first few chapters of the selfish gene as it was different variations of the same argument. As soon as you say yep I agree with the argument the rest is just filler and ego massaging...
It's not that he's wrong its just that it's tiresome to trot out the same line over and over.

joolsburger - Member
Quite a good biologist though.

Hmmmmm, about 10 (mediocre at best) publications on biology in the 60s and 70s followed by newstand sensationalism.
He became a 'Professor' only because Charles Simyoni (head of Microsoft's application software group) made a multimillion pound donation to Oxford University with the strict condition that Dawkins be made the inaugral chair of Public Understanding of Science, pretty hard to refuse, some may say academic blackmail.

His 'h-index' a commonly used indicator of significant publications is 18 (1 is low 100 is high) the average h-index of inductees into the National Academy of Sciences in biological and biomedical sciences is in the mid 50s.
So, good communicator, succesful author and self publicist yes.
Significant contribution to biological science, no more than any short term postgrad scientist.

he is quoted as saying he would "rather be remembered as an atheist than a scientist" so in his own words there you have it - Clinton Dawkins professional atheist.
Contribution to biological science, negligable.
Contribution to his own personal wealth and self importance, maximal.

I sometimes wonder if belief in God has a genetic basis, seeing as it's such a widespread trait.

Perhaps the creation of America somehow selected those with that particular trait.

At some point in the past, this trait would have conferred some kind of advantage (or it wouldn't exist) and perhaps that advantage turned out to be useful during the creation of the USA.

If you don't have a belief in God then I guess it means you don't have the gene and you are an evolutionary dead-end.

All this is of course assuming you take anything that Richard Dawkins says seriously.

For almost their entire history America has been fighting someone, having to see an external force as 'wrong' and religion as the common force that binds them (and probably stops them from fighting themselves).

Over the next few decades will be really interesting as America is going to implode under the weight of their debt.

I was interested to learn that under Regan he raised the debt ceiling 17 times alone.

christian belief is widespread in america, and particularly prevalent in certain areas, such as the mid-west, less so than in other areas such as NY state or California, though it still has a reasonable presence there. i suspect you'll find that anyone attempting to get elected will have done the polling and will find that not demonstrating belief will be bad for their chances. you're not going to win a presidential election without taking at least part of the mid-west and you have no chance of doing that if you come out as an atheist.
the religious are a very strong lobby group, and it's also arguable that the american political system is more open to lobbying influences than other electoral systems.
as stated above, the consitution looks for seperation of church and state, and this clearly is not the situation they find themselves in, however this is also a country founded by immigrants, that spends siginifacnt amounts of time and energy preventing other people from immigrating...
the land of the free, where they have to have their kids swear allegience to the flag every morning at school, and you can be arrested for vagrancy if you have less than $5 in your pocket. 😀

Well I'm not American, and I'm not religious... By proxy I'm doing well so far!

I wouldn't be so sure about that!

Living in both the US and UK I think that in general the amount of "church going folk" is slightly greater in the US. The UK seems to have a lot of devout athiests who are dead set on trying to disprove the validity of religion, very extremist in the opposite sense.

For almost their entire history [s]Ameica[/s] [b]the UK[/b] has been fighting someone, having to see an external force as 'wrong' and religion as the common force that binds them (and probably stops them from fighting themselves)

FTFY!

Interestingly recently two leading Theologist Scholars had to leave their roles after they said they couldn't be sure Adam/Eve existed and it'd be better to drop this part from teachings...

Quite ironic really!...I would say that was ironic too, but I'm neither that stupid or insensitive.

My brother lives in Michigan and we sometimes discuss the weirdness of Americans. He reckons that it's because they have little history to distract them while they are only really a few generations away from the settlers, which also explains their god-fearing pioneering mentality, their paranoia and their love of weapons.

LHS LOL. Its not really about right and wrong but protecting our business interests.

With us it was trade routes, then cotton, Opium/tea etc etc.

Only back in the Crusades was it really about religion not the pretence of 'right and wrong'.

{Dawkins} Contribution to biological science, negligable.

See I don't agree with that. Yes it [i]may[/i] be fair to say that he hasn't done any amazing groundbreaking research work, but surely being a readable pop-scientist is a very useful contribution? "The Blind Watchmaker" and "Selfish Gene" both did an immense amount to forward the general public's understanding of genetics and evolution.

Also I believe he is responsible for the word "[i]meme[/i]".
Surely successively inventing a new word is worth 5 merit points? 🙂

I think there's also the lingering influence of the whole 50s paranoia/propaganda about 'godless' communism. Affirming christian belief was seen as a way of ensuring evil socialism would never take root in America. 🙄

'In God We Trust' was adopted as the official motto of the US in the 50s, when the cold war was really getting going. They also passed a law requiring it to be on all currency, and added 'under God' to the pledge of allegiance - thus completely contradicting the First Amendment - oops!

It's also ridiculous that no-one has a hope of becoming US president without constantly referencing God and being a practising Christian.

+1 Hora and MSP.

The media coverage of 9/11 (or 11/9 in English!) seems way over the top. Yes it was awful but I think the amount of video footage of the actual attack gave the media enough fodder to keep going over it for a long time, there seems far less coverage of flight 93 and the Pentagon attack of which there was less footage.

LHS LOL. Its not really about right and wrong but protecting our business interests.

With us it was trade routes, then cotton, Opium/tea etc etc.

Only back in the Crusades was it really about religion not the pretence of 'right and wrong'.

It's never been about religion for the US- care to cite any examples. Same as this country, it's been about paranoia and trade.

S'obvious innit? A high proportion of the original settlers were religious fanatics escaping persecution back in Europe. They've managed to grow and prosper in the relatively tolerant climate of the US, and pass their beliefs onto future generations. They've also learnt the lessons of their less fortunate compatriots back home well, and have made sure they keep close to the seat of power so they won't get marginalised again.

That was pretty normal practise round there. Everyone was expected to attend.
I don't think there's many workplaces in the UK where that happens.

Never worked with muslims then?

Thinking about that church going statistic, 27% UK, 44% USA. I bet the 17% could be mostly made from the other religions in the UK? Compared to christianity which with the exception of the more enthusiastic denominations has abandoned the go to church or go to hell mantra most other religions still involve actualy going somewhere to worship.

The media coverage of 9/11 (or 11/9 in English!) seems way over the top.

I've been avoiding it so I genuinely don't know, but has there been any mention in the 9/11 remembrance events of all the other victims of 9/11 - ie all the (much larger numbers of) innocent civilians killed in Iraq, Afghanistan and ****stan as a result? I somehow doubt it but I'll be pleasantly surprised if there has.

Thinking about that church going statistic, 27% UK, 44% USA.

I thought the US was much higher - has it declined massively in recent years?

Maybe the question should actually be: why are people in the UK (and the STW forum in particular) so atheist?

With us it was trade routes, then cotton, Opium/tea etc etc.

Only back in the Crusades was it really about religion not the pretence of 'right and wrong'.

Really?

"If you have faith about these things then you realise that judgement is made by other people. If you believe in God,it's made by God as well."

[Tony Blair]

> I don't think there's many workplaces in the UK where that happens.

Never worked with muslims then?

Yes, but they went off and prayed quietly on their own. They didn't expect the entire company to get together for a morning prayer before work. 😯 Or for members of staff to take turns in leading the prayers.

The only time I've seen anything like that in the UK was "Morning Assembly" æons ago when I was at primary school, and I think even that is multi-faith/secular these days.

There you go Elfin, FTFY

No you jolly well have not, you've broken it.

Religion is far more culturally significant than Dawkins or N-Dubz.

Dawkins is the Tracey Emin of the scientific community.

Dawkins is the Tracey Emin of the scientific community.

How so Elf?

Dawkins made gene-based evolution understandable and accessible to the masses.

Emin made art less understandable and less accessible.

Only back in the Crusades was it really about religion not the pretence of 'right and wrong'.

It was actually a clever ploy of the Pope Urban to keep violent Noblemen on-side and to stop them killing each other.Go and kill the Muslims, plunder..Err...I mean free... the "Holy Land" not your neighbour.But it had as much justification as any "Holy War" has ever.

Religion is far more culturally significant than Dawkins or N-Dubz.

Maybe in your culture, certainly not in mine. In my culture we value education, knowledge, reasoning, respect, understanding and empathy. Whilst I accept your assertion that Dawkins is a 'pop' scientist, more your Gary Barlow of science than your Mozart maybe, he still asserts his argument based on logic and fact, as opposed to the feelings and beliefs of religious argument.

So for me and my culture Dawkins (and n dubs; loads of people love x factor) is FAR more relevant than religion.

Maybe in your culture, certainly not in mine. In my culture we value education, knowledge, reasoning, respect, understanding and empathy

Do you know from where those values of education, knowledge, reasoning, respect, understanding and empathy derived?

Do you know the history behind the foundation of the World's first Universities? Hospitals? Charities?

What is your culture? Where do you live? What laws do you abide by? How were those laws formed? What was the ideology behind the formation of those laws?

Do you know from where those values of education, knowledge, reasoning, respect, understanding and empathy derived?

They evolved as survival mechanisms for a social species and were then co-opted into religious belief?

Or maybe it was religion that helped organise and homologate such survival mechanisms?

Or maybe it was religion that helped organise and homologate such survival mechanisms?

Religion (rather than god) is a man made construct so I seriously doubt that it had any hand the evolution of man.

Religion has been a useful tool to impose morals and good conscience on the uneducated masses, in the past, and to provide convenient justification for some extremely morally dubious acts by the ruling classes since time immemorial. It has seriously outlived it's usefulness; we have mass media to do that now.

Republicans seem to be particularly god fearing, yet very quick to support military action. Revenge seemed to be high on the agenda after 9/11 and I'm not quite sure how that sits with being religious.

Religion has been a useful tool to impose morals and good conscience on the uneducated masses, in the past, and to provide convenient justification for some extremely morally dubious acts by the ruling classes since time immemorial. It has seriously outlived it's usefulness; we have mass media to do that now.

Do we not call it capitalism now?

Do we not call it capitalism now?

True that.