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Sorry for the mumsnet type post, but I am feeling rather hacked off.
* We are recruiting another lawyer to our department.
* I know someone who is suitable, made it known to the department and started email chat with the potential candidate, including sending over a job spec. They confirmed they were interested.
* A few days after I started this, the recruitment consultant we had engaged sent over some CVs, including the CV of the person I was already in contact with. I hadn't yet obtained their CV.
* Apparently the candidate told the rec con that she was already in dicussions with someone about the role internally, but the rec con said he would send over her CV anyway.
My company is taking the view that it's the CV which counts as the "referral", meaning the rec con is going to be paid for referring someone I was already in discussions with AND I lose out on a pretty significant referral sum myself (which is what this is about really : )
Is this unfair or am I just being bitter? How can we pay a rec con for referring someone who was already in discussions with us?
[i]or am I just being bitter? [/i]
This, but you're a Lawyer so:
1 We don't care
2 See 1
Seems unfair. Employer should prefer to pay referral to staff than externally....., however is there a formal referral policy ? In our place there is, and people need to follow it. From the other perspective, employer needs to keep in with Agency as they will have a relationship, negotiated rates and rules.
Not clear cut
This, but you're a Lawyer so:1 We don't care
2 See 1
🙂
I posted on this 18 months ago. I worked with people from a certain company for several years, due to them being engaged at the same site as me. That company gets bought out by a big one, who I then go and work for a couple of years later. My manager suggests I fill in the employee referral form and nominate one of the guys I worked with because you have to nominate someone.
He unexpectedly got £3.5k, and pocketed it all. Despite not having been responsible for my employment. Bit annoyed still.
I'm quite surprised that your firm prefers to pay externally, but yes, I'd say you have every right to be a little aggrieved!
My place encourages referrals, but will not pay any bonus as it could be construed as unfair favouritism for that person getting the job....!!!
It would all depend on wether you followed the companies referral policy or not.
Do they have a policy, and did you follow it ?
Did you or did you not secure the persons CV? If you didn't you had a nice chat with someone.
WTF this really happens....Talk about money for nothing 😯
Do you have any idea how much it costs to recruit someone? It's a small part of the total cost, and far better than giving £10k+ to a recruitment agency!
Are you at work on STW by any chance? 🙂
far better than giving £10k+ to a recruitment agency!
and the rest!
Sue your employer. That'll teach 'em.
You're being bitter. You may have had a chat with the candidate, but the agency beat you to it on actually submitting their CV for the appointment. You snooze, you lose.
You're being bitter. You may have had a chat with the candidate, but the agency beat you to it on actually submitting their CV for the appointment. You snooze, you lose.
The more I think about it, the more I am realising that this is the answer. I'm pissed off at myself 🙂
I still think it was unprofessional of the rec con to not bother calling or emailing us to discuss the fact that he was planning on sending in a CV for someone we were already in discussions with. My boss seems to agree on that point, so it seems unlikely that he will get any more work from us. First time we have used these guys and not been particularly impressed so far.
My company is taking the view that it's the CV which counts as the "referral"
Should have read the small print. Recruitment consultant done you like a kipper.
🙂
Yes, you're being massively unreasonable. I'd sack you myself for being so slack. Call yourself a lawyer? 🙂
😛
I still think it was unprofessional of the rec con to not bother calling or emailing us to discuss the fact that he was planning on sending in a CV for someone we were already in discussions with.
[devils advocate]
He probably asked if they had already submitted a CV.
They said they hadn't been asked for one so he thought .....
"They haven't applied yet then, and they are perfect for the job, it would be unprofessional of me NOT to put them forward for it"
[/devils advocate]
My boss seems to agree on that point, so it seems unlikely that he will get any more work from us. First time we have used these guys and not been particularly impressed so far.
In which case your firm has nothing to lose by confirming that you were already in discussions with the candidate and telling the rec con to [scouse] do one [/scouse].
[devils advocate]
He probably asked if they had already submitted a CV.
They said they hadn't been asked for one so he thought .....
"I best get in there quick or they going to think we're not very good and I won't be paid silly money for emailing a document"
[/devils advocate]
At risk of teaching a grandmother to suck eggs, if the consultant has met the requirements to be paid their fee under the contract, then your firm will need to pay up and therefore there is no saving, which is what finances the internal referral fee.
Recruitment consultants are aggressive chancers, what kind of lawyer are you FFS, mtfu and fight, the answer is in what you told us the consultant has no valid claim if candidate told them they were already in contact. Tell your mate to inform consultant they no longer act for them.
There’s a lot of misinformation on this thread. It actually boils down to one simple issue: Who did the candidate want and ask to represent them? If they told the recruitment agency that you were representing them then the Rec Agency does not have a leg to stand on. It doesn’t matter a jot who got the CV in first if the person who got there first was not actually authorised to act on behalf of the candidate.
At risk of teaching a grandmother to suck eggs, if the consultant has met the requirements to be paid their fee under the contract, then your firm will need to pay up and therefore there is no saving, which is what finances the internal referral fee.
Bullshit.
The issue here is not the contract between the Agency and the Employer, it is between the Agency and the candidate. An agency cannot just lay claim to the candidate like a piece of meat, if the Candidate does not want to be represented by the agency then end of story.
At risk of teaching a grandmother to suck eggs, if the consultant has met the requirements to be paid their fee under the contract, then your firm will need to pay up and therefore there is no saving, which is what finances the internal referral fee.
Technically he hasn't done anything outside of his scope, he asked the candidate if he could send her CV and she said yes (without thinking about the additional cost on our part) but, it just seems a bit underhand that they knew one of the candidates was already in contact with us and didn't phone/email to discuss before slipping her CV through the door.
Perhaps I was naive in thinking that someone who wants to work for us in the long term would try to piss us off on their first job?
Recruitment consultants are aggressive chancers, what kind of lawyer are you FFS, mtfu and fight, the answer is in what you told us the consultant has no valid claim if candidate told them they were already in contact. Tell your mate to inform consultant they no longer act for them.
I'm assuming you're familiar with our consultant's terms of engagement?
Recruitment consultants are aggressive chancers, what kind of lawyer are you FFS, mtfu and fight, the answer is in what you told us the consultant has no valid claim if candidate told them they were already in contact. Tell your mate to inform consultant they no longer act for them.
HR director's getting a cut from the agency. They all do. 😉
Just make it clear that you won't be referring anyone again.
Your mate's fault, I reckon.
Recruitment agents won't submit cv's without the candidates approval, precisely to stop this situation when a role is advertised with multiple agencies. He shouldn't have allowed it to go forward.
Your mate's fault, I reckon.
Probably my fault for not saying "whatever you do, don't now approach us via a rec con, it will cost us an extra £15k"
I'm surprised she didn't realise, but it's the first time she has dealt with a rec con, so probably didn't think.
I'm surprised she didn't realise, but it's the first time she has dealt with a rec con, so probably didn't think.
Aah yes, if she'd not dealt with the slimy wee buggers previously she wouldn't have known.
Been caught out before, where had a cv go out with a rate on it the agency says they can't be bettered, then seen it advertised later on with a better rate at another agency. Nothing you can do about it really, first past the post.
My anger has now changed to frustration at myself for not being quicker and disappointment that I now won't be building an Evil Undead 🙁
Apparently the candidate told the rec con that she was already in dicussions with someone about the role internally, but the rec con said he would send over her CV anyway.
Did the candidate ask the agency to represent them or not?
Never mind that the reccon said he's send the cv anyway, did the candidate agree for them to represent her?
Did the candidate ask the agency to represent them or not?
Never mind that the reccon said he's send the cv anyway, did the candidate agree for them to represent her?
As far as I am aware:
Candidate was already on the rec con's books, looking for work for a couple of months.
I emailed and sent job spec, candidate confirmed to me she was interested. My next email was going to be asking for her CV.
However, the next email was from her again, saying that just after our last email she had been approached about the same role by her rec con, who had offered to submit her CV for it despite being told that she was already speaking to us, she agreed without thinking of cost implications.
On reflection, I snoozed and lost, she should perhaps have thought of the cost implications, I should have told her not to deal with rec con after our initial conversation, rec con acted a bit underhand by not contacting us before submitting a CV of someone we were dealing with.
You live and learn eh 🙂 An expensive lesson in recruitment for me!
My what a different world I seem to live in!
So companies charge 15k for handing someone a CV?
Pretty much.
There isn't really another way to find specialised people though. If you find one then you'd be a very very very rich man 🙂
Plus, dealing with recruitment in house can make considerable demands on resources/time, things that you don't have, otherwise you wouldn't be hiring!
So companies charge 15k for handing someone a CV?
Kind of, but not quite - you do have to get hold of the CVs in the first place, and figure out who's a joker and who's a good candidate.
Is anyone else reading this and just thinking they're very happy not to exist in a world of petty smallprint and backstabbing? Sounds just like playground nonsense but with lots of other people's money.
Which isn't to say that I'm not sorry you missed out, of course I am, but what a horrible way to have to be.
That was sort of my point pedro.
I was feeling pretty happy that I had found someone suitable for our team without to deal with/pay recruitment consultants and making myself a decent bonus, but then I felt shafted after my own discussions with the person were interrupted by a recruitment consultant. I know how to deal with them in future now though, lesson learned.
End of the day the consultant makes his money on commission. If you had the option to take a cheeky punt for a slice of 15k or sit back, which would you do?
I'd be banging that CV across every time!
As a Recruitment Manager with 8 years external and internal experience I should probably chip in....
The recruitment company are trying it on. You're already in discussion with the candidate. They can't introduce someone to you you already have opened discussions with. The CV is an introduction thing is a red herring. Maybe in their T&Cs but not in reality!
Liking the standard tosh above about recruiters. 15k for emailing a CV? Yes, that's exactly how it works....!
What do you call a thousand lawyers at the bottom of the sea?
A good start.
What do you call a thousand lawyers at the bottom of the sea?A good start.
Charming. What contribution do you make to society jon?
I drive past at least one hospital, three schools every morning which I did the legals for, not to mention part of the motorway I actually drive on.
My mum had an operation in a wing of a hospital which I did the legals for, that felt quite good, pretty glad I wasn't on the bottom of the ocean that day.
Not looking for a medal, but I reckon I'm more useful to society in the office than I would be at the bottom of the ocean.
A good start would be you getting some decent/new joke material.
edlong - MemberYou're being bitter. ... [b] You snooze, you lose.[/b]
Okay ... "you snooze, you lose" ... okay ...
[img] 
[/img]
You have spoken to the candidate first Not the consulting firm, so you should be credited for. Not them. They are merely trying on the dirty tricks ...
Charming. What contribution do you make to society jon?
Calm down, it was only a joke, and an old one at that. It's one of those jokes that works for quite a few different occupations. I heard it all the time at university when I studied economics.
[i]In which case your firm has nothing to lose by confirming that you were already in discussions with the candidate and telling the rec con to [scouse] do one [/scouse]. [/i]
Yes it has. It will have signed a contract to pay them once they've recruited someone through them - somewhere between 15% and 25%.
tbh The Recruiter is doing their job.
Sob sob boo hoo I guess then! I'm guessing that if you had the opportunity for a 5k bonus then your salary is pretty tidy.
Liking the standard tosh above about recruiters. 15k for emailing a CV? Yes, that's exactly how it works....!
Enlighten me then as really am curious of how it can cost £15k to send someones CV?
The recruiter is doing his job.... Which in this case is trying it on.
They can't just send a CV, shout about T&Cs and claim a fee, it would never stand up. Where would it end? Say a recruiter makes a random candidate call, finds out they are at final interview with their client and no CV has been involved, which is common with LinkedIn, etc. Do you think they can then just wing a CV over and claim a fee?!
Tell em to get bent and you're considering how long to blacklist them for. Might even get a discount off the next fee if you're, quite rightly, strong about this and play it right.
Or roll over. Not my money!
Sob sob boo hoo I guess then! I'm guessing that if you had the opportunity for a 5k bonus then your salary is pretty tidy.
I think you've missed the point Tom.
It can cost upwards of £20k every time we try to hire a new member of staff, so to avoid having to pay recruitment fees, many employers offer existing staff members a "finders fee" if they find a successful candidate themselves (which is much lower than the recruitment consultant's rate), meaning the company wins and the member of staff wins.
It has nothing to do with the existing employee's salary or bonus, it's like being paid a recruitment consultant's fee for effectively doing their job.
Enlighten me then as really am curious of how it can cost £15k to send someones CV?
It's a captive market. They have the candidates we need on their books. We would have no way of finding staff who specialise in the areas we need, we wouldn't even know they existed. Unless of course you come through an internal referral 🙂
It's a captive market. They have the candidates we need on their books. We would have no way of finding staff who specialise in the areas we need, we wouldn't even know they existed. Unless of course you come through an internal referral
Right Ok I've got that but why £15k?
Enlighten me then as really am curious of how it can cost £15k to send someones CV?
Ok, here we go.
Assuming we're talking about contingency recruitment, as seems the case here, you get paid once you place a candidate with a client.
You don't get paid for anything else.
99% of what you do in recruitment you don't get paid for. You spend you time trying to generate vacancies from clients, building your candidate database, etc etc. You pay for the staffing cost, the advertising, the rent and rates, everything up front.
The client sees the final piece of the jigsaw which is when the phone up and say have you got XYZ, and low and behold it they do have XYZ and they'll email them over to you.
"bloody hell, all they've done is send and email and now they want £15k"
Here are the two points the making it hit home for me:
1) There are plenty of agencies out there in a free unregulated and very competitive market. Supply and demand and a push for value couldn't be clearer and yet the agencies still demand what is considered and extortionate fee? Well guess what, most agencies, especially in the current market, are up against it and will go as low as they can to still actually pay the bills and god forbid make a profit. The fee paid is the bare bones market rate with very little margin in there, if negotiated anywhere near correctly.
2) If it's so easy, why don't companies just do it themselves, especially if it just involves searching a database and sending over a CV? It's because it's a professional service that they don't have the skills/capabilities to do and professional services cost, whether that's accountancy, consultancy, prostitution or legal!
Rant over!
edit:
It's a captive market.
It couldn't be less of a captive market. Candidates can register with as many agencies as they like for free, in fact recruitment business aren't legally allowed to charge. They can apply direct. They can be a referral or recommendation from an employee (in this case). They can be on Linkedin. I'm not sure how less of a captive market it could be?!
WELCOME TO THE WORLD OF IT AINT WHAT YOU KNOW, BUT WHO YOU DO KNOW !!!
Except in this case exactly the opposite is true.
They did know the candidate.
They didn't know where they stood legally (for a legal company) and are going to pay the fee.
Almost right, but actually completely wrong. And a wee bit shouty.
So yeah figured that they'll be running costs but still £15k seems bloody silly money. Maybe working in the public sector all my working life has given me sheltered view.
True Story: a couple of years ago we were recruiting for an Office Manager and a certain recruitment consultancy (who have a somewhat 'angelic' reputation) kept sending us cv's, of poor candidates may I add. One the the consutants at this firm decided she would like the job so contacted us directly for an interview. We liked her and offered her the job, which she accepted. A few weeks later we received an invoice from the consultants for their services in placing her with us! We obviously refused to pay a d it got quite nasty, with them threatening court action. Bunch if chancers.
Almost right, but actually completely wrong. And a wee bit shouty
😆 😆 😆
I N R A T S
...but...OP you are a commercial lawyer and this is a matter of the law of agency no?
IIRC consultants can/do have clauses in their contracts covering this? There's bound to be caselaw also?
Tbh your employer has been very reasonable. It would be perfectly understandable if your employer had said 'already KNOWN to us'. Why no cv? Could this person have thought it was just a lighthearted gossip/headsup?
Kickbacks are very rare.
However, the next email was from her again, saying that just after our last email she had been approached about the same role by her rec con, who had offered to submit her CV for it despite being told that she was already speaking to us, she agreed without thinking of cost implications.
Regardless of having to pay the RC (I don't think you should as they didn't 'find' her), I would be wondering if she is cut out for the job..........
........a lawyer who "[i]didn't think about the cost implications[/i]" 8)
What Happend to advertising a job..doing a few interviews and then choosing an employee?...is it any wonder the country is on its arse!
All I am seeing in this thread is pages of B Ship candidates arguing with each other. Carry on.
[i]So yeah figured that they'll be running costs but still £15k seems bloody silly money. Maybe working in the public sector all my working life has given me sheltered view. [/i]
No, what happens in the Public Sector is you still spend the money, its just 'hidden' from you. And many, many Public Sector organisations use agencies, and the fees will be the same (ball park).
I use to run a department, most paid £40-50k, so anyone recruited through a agency would cost us £7-10k.
I usually said I was looking for staff to the team, before I called the agency. We didn't pay referrals, just let them expense a decent meal with their partners. Got at least 50% of my staff through word-of-mouth.
Thanks b r for not answering the question.
Stufive the best candidates. Its all about maximum exposure for the job. Thats time consuming/costly. Public sector is totally different. They dont hang out/wait but go with who is best available at that moment.
Partly why now Brum council is shedding 30% of its staff sadly. A combination of average staff/poor decisions by said staff and a culture not driven by efficiency.
Jobs for the boys wink wink nudge nudge
In any success fee environment, the fee looks alot on a standalone basis but as hmanchester said you spend alot of time on things that don't succeed so your charging structure has to recognize this wasted effort - or as a colleague used to say, you need to spend alot of time kissing frogs, before the prince comes along.
Almost right, but actually completely wrong. And a wee bit shouty
I lolled
OP you are a commercial lawyer and this is a matter of the law of agency no?
It's not really about the law, more about internal politics.
I say one thing (and believe me, I've said it a few times!), HR department (in charge of the recruitment) ignore me and say something else. Seems they are quite happy to pay loads more cash, they just weren't interested. Doubt I'll ever recommend anyone again though.
All I am seeing in this thread is pages of B Ship candidates arguing with each other. Carry on.
The irony of your useless comment is not lost on me 🙂
Drac
[i]Right Ok I've got that but why £15k? [/i]
Because its a percentage of salary/package to be paid in the role.
Was that the question I hadn't answered?
Because its a percentage of salary/package to be paid in the role.Was that the question I hadn't answered?
Well I'd guessed that but still no one who works in the industry has been able to explain how it's £15k, they've mentioned wages and running costs but seriously £15k for one client.
I've worked in recruitment and as has been said, there's a huge amount of work to be done to place someone - from initial client & requirement hunting, candidate sourcing, pushing CVs through, managing the process really tightly to ensure the candidate doesn't go elsewhere or accept another role (in which case all your work is for nothing), not to mention the fees to subscribe to all the job boards to allow you to source CVs.
End of the day, the higher the salary of the role, the harder that person is to find. And the agency needs to make their fees and the consultant needs to make their commission.
[i]Well I'd guessed that but still no one who works in the industry has been able to explain how it's £15k, they've mentioned wages and running costs but seriously £15k for one client. [/i]
Because its a percentage of the salary! If you are recruiting for someone who'll earn £100k, then that's £15k is the agreed commission is 15%.
I think you work in the NHS, how much commission do you think an agency got to get these two on board?
http://www.boltonft.nhs.uk/2012/12/two-new-non-executives-appointed/
Its not about sending a CV, you only get paid when the company employs the person you've sent (and there are often 2-3 agencies involved, so only one gets paid). And usually the company has a clawback if the employee stays less than a period (often upto one year).
I'm not a recruiter, but have dealt with enough and employed enough folk to have a good idea with how it works.
Well I'd guessed that but still no one who works in the industry has been able to explain how it's £15k, they've mentioned wages and running costs but seriously £15k for one client.
Because of the market. If you reckon you can do it for ten grand, do it.
Because its a percentage of the salary! If you are recruiting for someone who'll earn £100k, then that's £15k is the agreed commission is 15%.I think you work in the NHS, how much commission do you think an agency got to get these two on board?
Right I see that too but it still seems silly money to me but get what you mean now.
Because of the market. If you reckon you can do it for ten grand, do it.
What? I never claimed I could do it cheaper I'm just staggered at what it costs.