[Closed] Am I being a snob?

the brightest of children do equally well in any school.

I'd suggest that's total rubbish, TJ. The brightest kids may have the opportunity to do equally well at any school, but that doesn't mean they might not end up mixing with people who'll drag them down at some.

Mixed ability classes focus all learning on the common denominator.Stream abilities with the pathway of moving up or down according to capabilities, and everybody is happy. Have the resources to help those in need of resources. But that is heresy, as it costs money.

"sodafarls, what you say may be true with 'chalk 'n' talk' teaching, but if you teach people how to learn then there's nothing to hold the brighter ones back. "

Can you expand on this? And can you explain how a brighter child will not be held back by the scenario where the syllabus does not progress as far as they are capable of over the course of a term/semester?

I'd also like to be refreshed in the efficiency of modern teaching methods verus "chalk and talk".

TJ - I have to agree - Brighter kids will do well wherever they are, even if they are not academically focused.

When trying to get people doing the same thing such as everyone focused on learning, you need to focus on those who want to rather than trying to bring the few who don't into line - the idea is that the few will get bored and join ranks while the ones who do will gain rather than lose out if you focus the other way round. Obviously the disruption isnt great but with mixed ability PC classes then it isn't going to be easy - hats off to teachers - it is a tough job.

The whole streaming thing makes me laugh after all this debate - so now we are going to have people learning based on their ability... so when a parent thinks their child has been hard done by and complains to the school that they should go up a class - what then???

Will they think the child isn't getting the right education and look for alternatives such as suplementary education or dare I say it even Private education?

Supply and demand. I can't afford a nice Ti frame or that lovely looking Santa Cruz so I make do with what I have got and dream. Others can afford it and hats off to them. Likewise if parents want to work their ass off to make a better future for their kids and their kids then I understand why - what is wrong with looking at how to benefit future generations of your family rather than just the immediate next generation?

On the whole debate of class society - you have rich, you have poor and all shades of grey in between. You'll never get away from that unless you move to a socialist state or even full blown communism and we all know how well that works... 😉

The beauty of todays Britain is there are more opportunities to do well for yourself and move up the class ladder if you want to and you look at a lot of people who have made it and are in the public eye - a large proportion of them started with nothing and have made their money through hard work rather than a good education.

Education is a great foundation but to me it isn't the silver bullet / only solution for children to get on in life and I won't be disapointed if my children don't succeed as I know how well I have done in life with minimal qualifications.

The "bright children do as well in any school" is accepted as true by teaching professionals.

[i]The "bright children do as well in any school" is accepted as true by teaching professionals.[/i]

That maybe accepted by teaching professionals but not parents. And I can understand why teachers or any professional body representing schools and teachers would say that. It's just a little biased though isn't it?

I have a friend who went onto gain a good degree in chemistry - followed by a doctorate but initially didn't do well at school, ending up doing resits at sixth-form college before progressing. Simply put - he was a typically bright child who didn't do well at your typical [i]any school[/i].

On the day he opened his exam results at school - I doubt he or his parents would have been comforted in the knowledge whilst failing his exams and failing to reach his academic potential - he was actually doing well at becoming a more streetwise and rounded character.

Qualifications don't guarantee wealth - but at least you won't be poor (relatively speaking). They give you better choices in life.

And pls don't get me started on the fall in standards of the education system ...

And TJ - ta for the email.

so now we are going to have people learning based on their ability

Aracer - No I don't think learning based on their ability is wrong in fact I think it is the best way, but as a parent if your child is at the top of their game surely you'd want to see how much further they could go.

If the state system doesn't cater for it then other alternatives would be considered if you were caring for your kids, which then brings us back to the merits of other options - one of which would be private education (or personally funded education) which would only be paid for if the parents felt their children would benefit.

I was merely trying to point out that we have almost gone full circle from saying everyone one should have the same education to now saying everyone deserves the best to get the most out of their abilities.

I think the whole debate is an interesting one as at the end of the day I'll do what I feel is best for my kids and the situation I am in rather than being a sheep and following the flock.

Back to the original poster - do what you feel is best, only you know your kids and your situation and what is ultimately best.

Apologies - misunderstood the point you were making.

saying everyone one should have the same education

Aracer - I think we are on similar pages 😉

No, once again you misunderstand me;

What I'm saying, is that all children should have the same educational opportunities, regardless of wealth.

Sadly, it seems that there are still those who don't feel this way, and would prefer an economically segregated system that keeps the proles down.

History has proved that there will always be those who seek to subjugate others, to ensure a submissive and docile workforce. Restricting access to education and knowledge is a very effective way of doing this. Private education, whilst offering higher standards for the lucky few, is something that perpetuates this system, which is counter-productive to Human social progression.

Mind, there will always be those who seek to find some way to appear superior to others.

'Oh, I've got more money than him, therefore I demand better'.

Why not simply be happy that you have the [i]same[/i] as others? And that in itself, is of a high standard?

Sounds to me that the OP is seeking to make himself appear 'better than others', by sending his kids to a 'better' school than Trinity and Blade...

Sadly, it seems that there are still those who don't feel this way, and would prefer an economically segregated system that keeps the proles down.

There is of course a difference between wishing for equality of opportunity and refusing to do the best you can for your children because of misplaced ideology.

I don't think it is economically segregated at all. Most parents choose to take advantage of our state system which is providing a high level of education and other prefer to spend their cash on providing a different type of educational experience to their children.

At the end of the day my experiences have shown me that both systems have their merits and I preferably would send my children to private school if I could (not for academic reasons I hasten to add) but I am perfectly happy with the state system as well.

Its down to what you see as being best, I can't afford it so I'm going to try hard to make sure my kids get the best I can provide so they become well rounded people but that isn't only going to happen due to the school they go to.

The impression I get from what I hear / see is that I think there is a proportion of parents who expect school to give their kids everything they need but they actually have a key role in providing learning opportunities for their children too.

which is counter-productive to Human social progression.

Darwin's theory of evolution - survival of the fittest...

Do you think Lions give Zebra's a day off so they can be given an equal opportunity to enjoy the day and raise their baby Zebras?

But As I, and others have stated; we don't feel that placing kids in a private school is necessarily doing the 'best' for them. And have gone to some lengths, to explain why.

I think the main point of our argument was that if kids are all put in the same learning environment together, they have greater scope for gaining understanding of the complex diversity of the society they will grow up in. There is perhaps a greater chance of this, in a state comprehensive, than in a private school.

Misplaced ideology? If you don't actually bother to act on your beliefs/ideals, then change will never happen.

The beauty of todays Britain is there are more opportunities to do well for yourself and move up the class ladder if you want to and you look at a lot of people who have made it and are in the public eye - a large proportion of them started with nothing and have made their money through hard work rather than a good education.

Research show that the gap between rich and poor is increasing all the time, and social mobillity is actually getting worse. Education probably plays a big role in this.

Rudeboy - have you ever been to a private school?

Of the state school and the private school I went to I got a much better understanding of the world and mixed with people from all levels of society at the private school.

My state school was full of what I would call white middle class pupils.

I preferably would send my children to private school if I could (not for academic reasons I hasten to add)

Please explain. Do you mean that you would prefer that they were able to name their school in job interviews, etc, and somehow gain an advantage? Like how the mere fact that you went to Eton/Harrow gives you a leg-up?

Darwin's theory of evolution - survival of the fittest...

Good Lord, is that the best you can come up with? Shall we just not bother with the disabled kids, then? Cheeze... 🙄

We are not base animals. We area highly evolved and intelligent (?) species.

Rudeboy - have you ever been to a private school?

Give me strength...

Have you not read my previous posts?

Exercise: Go back and read through them; you might learn something... 🙄

I have read your earlier posts and was wondering if you had any experience of private schools rather than bigoted views formed from limited experiences?

My preference is nothing to do with the so called "old boy network" as I've never seen that being used during my time since leaving school - that is just comical.

The reason I would is personal preference based on experience rather than out dated misconceptions.

I have read your earlier posts and was wondering if you had any experience of private schools

You obviously haven't read them carefully enough... 🙄

fair play - didn't read them all but sounds like you have a similar background to myself so interesting to see such polarised viewpoints.

I think that there will always be a private education system - whether it be after school classes for people who want to progress in maths all the way up to full blown private boarding schools.

Seriously lost how this thread is going as it appears to be just Fred's and others opinion on how society should be which, whilst wishful, is not the case. So what is it you're actually suggesting the OP should do? In that sense, what would you do if you were a parent? How would you decide on a suitable school for your children or is it just a case of give their name to the LEA and let them place them?

So what is it you're actually suggesting the OP should do?

Try not to be so snobbish about other people, might be a good start...

[i]Try not to be so snobbish about other people, might be a good start... [/i]

Right, okay. Is there more or is that it?

FWIW, I think the OP should just send his kids to a fee paying school.
From the arguments he's put forward so far, his children will never succeed in a state school because everytime they fail to meet his lofty expectations, it will be deemed to be the fault of poor teaching, bad influences or any one of many faults that he's already decided exist within the state school system. Sending your kids into school with those sort of prejudices and misconceptions is every bit as damaging as anything he imagines that Blade and Trinity might get up to.

I think the school might be a better place without the likes of the OP involved in it.

As I said - only he knows his kids and the situation so he should make a decision he feels is right for his kids.

How would you decide on a suitable school for your children

Dunno but I'm pretty sure that the names of some of the kids and the haircuts of their parents shouldn't be a major deciding factor. I think trailmonkey is probably right, sadly.

Freeundred!

I know it's politically incorrect to suggest this, but you really don't think that names and appearances might be indicative of some other differences?

I know it's politically incorrect to suggest this, but you really don't think that names and appearances might be indicative of some other differences?

Go on, enlighten us.

FWIW I think that for many parents selecting a school is one of the toughest decisions they face as the result will shape their childrens whole lives for better or worse; thats a lot of guilt/pressure to put on a parent and therefore picking a school means coming out of their comfort zone, bringing out any underlining prejudices a person may have and make spot judgements on people based on very little information. The OP may be accused of being a snob but its just saying what thousands of parents from all backgrounds are saying behind closed doors as they try to come to a decision on their childrens education.

Aracer - Yes, but no!

ts just saying what thousands of snobs are saying behind closed doors as they try to come to a decision on their childrens education.

FWIW I think that for many parents selecting a school is one of the toughest decisions they face

Our primary and over riding criteria was which school our kids felt that they would be happiest.
That's what school they both ended up going to.

[i]Our primary and over riding criteria was where our kids felt that they would be happiest.[/i]

So was ours. With so many variables and no crystal ball, deciding where my children would be happiest was our toughest decision

FWIW I think the OP is aware that he might be being snobbish and was trying to establish if his motives were snobbish or based on what was really best for his kids.

A lot of discussion on here is about the generalities rather than the specifics.

trailmonkey - Member

Our primary and over riding criteria was where our kids felt that [b]they[/b] would be happiest.

nukeproof - Member

deciding where my children would be happiest was [b]our[/b] toughest decision

Subtle difference in approach.

Our primary and over riding criteria was which school our kids felt that they would be happiest.

ISTM there's just as much prejudice and snobbery from the private school haters on this thread as from the other side.

[i]Subtle difference in approach. [/i]

????

My 3 year old would happily have signed up to Dora the Explorer school* if it was an option!

(* However I am not suggesting that Dora the Explorer school would not be equal to other schools and will not be judging Tico, Boots or any of her other classmates on their gender, nationality or species)

Let's sum this up for you - Rudeboy:
- You have no children. So no parental experience. Get some or go to build-a-bear 🙂
- Have had a relatively privileged upbringing (Latymers is £12K per annum?? thanks Mum) but you resent anybody else having one.
- You're prejudiced against privately educated people and stereotype them as typical public schoolboys. But say don't go around stereotyping the lower-class, get to know them, talk to them.
- You apparently would happily donate a total of appx £100K per child of yours to any school your children attend (this is the full cost of private education to 16yrs).
- You thinks children below the age of 14yrs should not be streamed. Showing how little you know about education and children.

You're a hypocrite. End of.

[i]that all children should have the same educational opportunities, regardless of wealth.[/i]

Where there is wealth there will always be inequality.

I don't think anybody has actually disagreed with your principle of [i]same educational opportunities[/i]. It's the fact you object so strongly to anybody paying for an alternative.

It's called to choice.

As for trailmonkey's post - I don't know which thread you've been reading but what you've written has not been stated or implied by me. I think you've made a lot of assumptions about me as a person and my motives as a parent without any foundation whatsoever.

...what Bushwacked says.

ps: [i]Our primary and over riding criteria was where our kids felt that they would be happiest.[/i]

😯 - you let a 3 yr old decide? my one would have decided on the colour of the uniform alone.

Keep your children away from scum. Decide for yourself what scum is. If that means sending them to a private school, then beg borrow steal to get the best for your children. If you can achieve that in state school, then do that instead.

Can someone help HTTP out, please? I can't be bothered any more. Bloke doesn't bother to actually read stuff.

Thanks.

I can't be bothered any more.