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Well said trailmonkey.
In response to an earlier post I bet I can guess wh went to state school and wh went to feepaying schools with a high degree of accuracy - Dead easy to do from attitudes. Really really simple.
fee-paying schools perpetuates the class divide
No it doesn't.
Yes it does. In other Yerpean countries, where there is far less actual private education, and better funded state schools, there is far less of a 'class' divide. Norway, for example. There are rich and poor, but there is far less class prejudice (until recently, there were no private schools in Norway). Having been to Norway several times, and known many Norwegians, I've been able to gain a perspective on our class system, from the point of view of people who don't really recognise such a thing. That's just one example.
Some of Britain's worst social issues are as a result of the class divide. The way people are openly prejudicial toward 'Chavs' or 'Pikies' is one such worrying issue. FFS, up until recently, people born into the gentry were allowed to sit in the House of Lords, with the power to vote on laws that affected all of us. Hereditary Peers didn't get to that position through merit, that's for sure. So Lord Posonby-Smythe or whoever had power and status in our society, which wasn't earned, or even deserved.
'Chip on your shoulder'. Hmm, now where have I heard that before...?
Better Red, than soft in the head...
jonb - MemberSurely you are better off being able to interact with intelligent people than violent thugs
That was in relation to
TandemJeremy - Memberaracer. My school was not one of the worst but it certainly had its share of troubles. Two stabbings while I was there, daily fights and a couple of big gang fights.
I don't see how giving a child experience of that type of thing is good? That for me would be a definate reason to avoid somewhere. I'm not saying all schools are like that or even that only comprehensives are like that. The stories I hear from friends I know who went to boarding school are just as bad.
Jonb - did you read the rest of my post? I was a very unworldly kid and the wider educational experience of the comprehensive help make me a more streetwise and rounded charectar
bet I can guess wh went to state school and wh went to feepaying schools with a high degree of accuracy - Dead easy to do from attitudes
TJ - given the over-tones of the thread, that's a rather strange and arrogant statement to make.
And attending a state comprehensive school does [i]not[/i] automatically provide somebody with life skills and a balanced perspective.
jonb - Member
Surely you are better off being able to interact with intelligent people than violent thugs.
Is quite clearly a statement making a generalization. The only point you made is some intelligent people are also violent. I think the point made still stands.
[i]I feel that the existence of fee-paying schools perpetuates the class divide, and prevents the social mobility of those who have less economic resources at their disposal. That is wrong. Let's have an even playing field.[/i]
Actually quite agree with this but it is fairly redundant as when most people become parents, even if they may have had some social conscience, this reverts to a selfish and more primitive drive to get what they would consider the very best start in life for their children regardless of others.
...this might be harsh but life, for the main, is also harsh so most parents will want to do the very best they can for their kids with the money and resources available.
Yes, It seems that you were bullied and put in a school where violence was common place. Granted you mixed with different levels of society.
I was just trying to play devils advocate and say why is it better to go to a comprehensive to meet a broad range of people rather than go to a private school. I got the impression from your post that your and other peoples idea of varied people was violent people and bullies.
I went to a normal primary school but only have experience of the one secondary, private. But the people there were very broad in their backgrounds. Out of my closest friends, one was the son of a director of a very big utilities company, one was the son of a vicar (on a full scholarship), one was the son of an indian doctor and like me the vast majority just had parents who made sacrifices to send their kids there and did realtively normal jobs (dad worked his way up to maangement level after starting with the company as a milkman at 18. Mum was a primary Teacher (had to return to work to pay for my siblings and I to attend school). It was [url= http://www.boltonschool.org/SeniorBoys/ ]this one[/url] if you want to know.
I found out about the alumni while I was there. One of the things that inspired my interest in chemistry was reading about Sir Harry Kroto and his Nobel prize. Looking at other ex pupils it gave me the impression that anything was possible as plenty of them had gone on to do great things. Surely better than learning how to deal with knife bearing thugs.
I don't see how giving a child experience of that type of thing is good?
If a child is growing up in that environment, then they'll be subject to that sort of thing sooner or later anyway. The point that TJ is making is that exposure to that, is part of the education of many urban school children. But, it's not the point. Your original post seems to be saying, and it only echoes what others are implying, is that we can stereotype the children in state schools as unintelligent, violent, under priveliged and likely to handicap the education of intelligent, passive children. This is very wrong and quite disturbing that people feel that way.
I wouldn't decide which school to send my children (not that I have any) to based on broad generalisations and stereotypes. I'd look at the school in question. If I considered the local state school to be good then I'd send them there (and spend the money on bikes 😉 otherwise I'd go private or consider moving house (which amounts to the same thing in that you pay for access to a better school). Probably wouldn't send my kids to boarding school though, bit like outsourcing your parental responsibilities.
I went to state schools which was a decision my parents made as they felt it was appropriate - philosophically and politically. Both my parents were teachers in the state sector - but my father was also on the regional exam board and involved in government education policy.
My secondary school was 80% non indigenous and had some issues like all schools, and sometimes things weren't very pleasant.
The biggest difference I find as I work in a profession very populated by private/ public school educated people is in the outward manifestations of confidence, and thats about it. But then my opinion probably doesn't really matter as the main argument appears to be going on between people who've already made their minds up.
Ap - You've hit the nail on its head - many people seem closed minded and unable to understand that stereotypes are not the norm...
.
.
.
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....perhaps the side effect of a State education!!! 😉
HTTP404 - back to your original question - no you're not - you are just looking out for your kids as a responsible parent.
Sorry aP, but I love the way...........................
The biggest difference I find as I work in a profession very populated by private/ public school educated people is in the outward manifestations of confidence,
Is followed by..................
But then my opinion probably doesn't really matter
It's Ok, we believed you,without you having to prove it within the same paragraph. 😉
😛
Evidence shows that on average state school teaching is better than that on offer in private schools. The differences in achievement arises from the kids' backgrounds, you tend to get 'poor schools' in poor areas. However there are some really good state schools that take kids from all backgrounds and give them the opportunity to fulfil their potential. I went to a school like that and it produced some real successes in different ways, Stephen Harris (of Iron Maiden) was in my class, Jonathan Ross was a few years behind, another guy there went on to become a history professor, plus it produced a few villains and villeins. In my experience what the top private schools give their alumni is supreme self-confidence, often among people who are too thick to know their own limitations, but it can certainly help people get on.
HTTP404 - back to your original question - no you're not - you are just looking out for your kids as a responsible parent.
So why mention the appearance of other kids or parents, or think that their names are an issue?
Seems that the OP, whilst wanting a decent education for his kids (fair enough), would rather they go to a school where the other pupils and their families fit into his idea of respectability.
Which seems quite narrow-minded and snobbish, imo.
HTTP - may be a bid odd and arrogant but its fairly easy to tell IMO.
I think its important to consider not just the generalities but also the specific - which is why I said earlier in thethread that in the situation the OP is in he can only make up his mind based on what his kids are like and what the schools in question are really like.
There is a lot of info in this thread to help you make up your mind. IMO state schools are best for most kids to get a rounded education. The money spent on fees could do an awful lot outside of school for the kids
This is from a [url= http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latymer_Upper_School ]Wiki piece about the public school I went to for 2 years[/url]:
Pupils come from a wide area of London. After the Blair Government's abolition of the Assisted Places Scheme for the children of poorer families, the social range has narrowed and the relatively small number of bursary places that are subsidised by the School is not able to compensate for this.[2] In particular, Hammersmith's substantial Polish and Afro-Caribbean communities are significantly under-represented.[3][4] The Sixth Form has been co-educational since 1996, and the main school became fully co-educational, with the introduction of girls into Year 7 for the first time in 2004. With that year's entry moving into in Year 11 it became fully co-educational in 2008. The Good Schools Guide said "This is an urban inner-city school that still has a grammar school feel and parents value the social mix that comes from taking in plenty of state school children at 11."[1]
It concerns me, that this fine educational establishment, with some of the best resources to be found in any school, does not serve many of it's local children. Ironic, then, that it was in fact set up to educate the poor. With fees now at over £12000 a year, many people are simply excluded. This, imo, is unfair. That you can only get the best education for your kids, if you can afford it. A situation made worse by the scrapping of the AP scheme, which enabled me to go there. This hinders social mobility. The social divide is ever-widening.
Latymer is one of the less 'exclusive' schools, too. But it's still a 'posh school' for 'posh kids'.
"a classless society cannot exist where an individual's merit is measured by commercial worth."
Funny isn't it that the children given a much better chance at winning on the commercial scale later in life tend to have had a hell of a lot more spent on their education.
But that's not really of interest to you , is it?
He is entitled to do what he sees best for his kids, I moved away from London as I didn't want to raise my family there, is it any different to sending your kids to private school?
I'm not a snob but I want my kids to grow up into people who have a good perspective on life and a good chance in life to do the same for their kids.
Imagine how good state schools could be if all the money ppl pay in fees to private schools went into state education, and all the parents who apparently care so much about their children's education got involved with PTA etc at state schools.
Don't get me started on religious schools btw - not sure how come public money can be used to fund a school which blatantly discriminates on religious grounds.
Toowundred!
TandemJeremy - Member
Well said trailmonkey.In response to an earlier post I bet I can guess wh went to state school and wh went to feepaying schools with a high degree of accuracy - Dead easy to do from attitudes. Really really simple.
Put up or shut up TJ, your opinionated & vocal, so show us your worth please.
your opinionated & vocal, so show us your worth please.
Your opinionated and vocal what? Uncle? Best mate? Pet frog?
I prefer TJ's vocal opinions to some others on here...
I went to a dreadfull state school and hated it. We had all the chavs and a girl who ended up 'Well preggerz' at the grand age of 14, because she didn't want to do her GCSEs. Don't forget the few children that ended up on house arrest at the age of 16.
It was full of useless kids that just disrupted the education of others, the education itself was pretty shoddy probably because the teachers spent all their time sorting out the troubled children.
If I have kids and have the money they they will be straight to private school with good education and proper people. Don't worry I will get my own back when it comes to picking nursing homes.
proper people
Oh dear...
What's the opinion on state Grammar schools that feed from local comps at age 14, and if you do well at 15 or at your GCSE'S at 16 you can come join the streamed fun for A-levels or whatever alternatives are offered these days? Do they have them in Britain?
Your opinionated and vocal what? Uncle? Best mate? Pet frog?I prefer TJ's vocal opinions to some others on here...
Fred, from someone who used to pretend to be black, just to get a reaction, I find that quite amusing.
If TJ says he can tell who has been to which type of school, then let him prove it. I'm sure he doesn't need gobshites to speak for him.
TJ's responses have been fine, he always argues his points IMO.
grumm - MemberImagine how good state schools could be if all the money ppl pay in fees to private schools went into state education, and all the parents who apparently care so much about their children's education got involved with PTA etc at state schools.
Don't get me started on religious schools btw - not sure how come public money can be used to fund a school which blatantly discriminates on religious grounds.
People who send their kids to private school are also paying taxes so pay for other peoples kids to go to state schools. They are in effect paying twice for their childs education.
Does money make a good school? It obviously helps but will throwing money at a child raise their IQ or change their attitude to learning?
Can TJ also tell how much someone earns or who is gay or who prefers to ride a singlespeed?
Fred, from someone who used to pretend to be black, just to get a reaction, I find that quite amusing.
I find that statement utterly hilarious!
How long d'it take you to think that one up? Well done!
'Pretend to be Black'! LOL! 😆
Got any more like that?
2 unfit to ride - how can I show this on the forum? I am fairly sure I can do this in real life. It needs rather more than forum posts. All those little subliminal signals that you get in real conversation
Jon / rudeboy - thanks.
I thought Fred was brown? we have seen pics of him. Not black nor whirte but a sort of midbrown colour ( I'm pinkish)
"but will throwing money at a child raise their IQ..? "
Why do better off parents need to spend more on their children then?
...
"or change their attitude to learning?"
What was your attitude to learning at 10 years old? Were you aware of such a concept?
TJ is very vocal on a small amount of subjects, I would say I agree on some, disagree on others. I would never normally challenge someone on here, but such a bold statement just reeks of self worth.
And besides, I can't tell, so I'm interested in how he can.
Can TJ also tell how much someone earns or who is gay or who prefers to ride a singlespeed?
Are you suggesting there is some kind of correlation between these things? 😛
People who send their kids to private school are also paying taxes so pay for other peoples kids to go to state schools. They are in effect paying twice for their childs education.
Good - they can obviously afford it, which means they clearly aren't paying enough tax! 😉
Does money make a good school? It obviously helps but will throwing money at a child raise their IQ or change their attitude to learning?
Isn't that one of the main benefits that people have been suggesting public schools give you?
Fred, you know, I just pull them out of the hat sometimes 😉 Your posts have always had me enthralled, its been fun watching you change over the years.
You used to have a bag of spuds on your shoulder, now your down to a potato or two, not long before it becomes a mere chip.
I'll rephrase the question,
What does the extra money provide? In many cases private schools offer a selection procedure based on "academic ability" the money covers the fact that this excludes them from government funding (or that they opt out). What would giving more money to a comprehensive change that would make it a better school?
At ten years old I loved learning, I liked maths and science, quite enjoyed school. Didn't like English or French but worked hard at it because I wanted to be good/better. I'd read books on things I liked, had things like mocroscopes and chemistry sets to play with. Learning was just fun/interesting for me.
Your posts have always had me enthralled
That's funny; 'cos yours haven't!
TandemJeremy - Member
2 unfit to ride - how can I show this on the forum? I am fairly sure I can do this in real life. It needs rather more than forum posts. All those little subliminal signals that you get in real conversation
I'm sorry, I thought you were posting on a forum, boasting about being able to tell which type of school people went to. I didn't realise you meant you could only tell if you had actually met the person, & asked them where they went to school 😉
grumm - Member[i]Can TJ also tell how much someone earns or who is gay or who prefers to ride a singlespeed?[/i]
Are you suggesting there is some kind of correlation between these things?
I was more trying to think of things that there are sterotypes for but are all irrelevant when you look at the person rather than the label. Does it really matter if someone has been to public school? I know people who have and haven't and some are good, some are bad - I don't know what the point was that TJ was trying to get across.
Hadn't thought of any correlations - but let me think... 😆
What would giving more money to a comprehensive change that would make it a better school?
Smaller class sizes? More learning support? Better equipment/more books etc? More activities/trips on offer? More/better training for teachers? Er...
RudeBoy - Member
That's funny; 'cos yours haven't!
I bet you come up with something, I know you won't let it lie.
More/better training for teachers? Er...
This gets better. So now the teachers are rubbish at state schools too ?
2 unfit - sory for the confusion - yes it needs more than a forum post. I dunno what point I was trying to make now either.
Gays - you can tell by the shirts, the way they walk and the aftershave
( thats a joke btw)
This gets better. So now the teachers are rubbish at state schools too ?
Er.... where are you getting that from? I went to a state school and the teachers were generally pretty good.
Just saying that if you had a bigger budget, you can afford more training for your staff, which is probably a good thing. Which part of that do you fail to understand?
I was just arguing that there would be clear benefits to more money for state schools - not just schools that only benefit the already priveleged and exacerbate divisions in society.
Can someone remind me what the OP was??