MegaSack DRAW - This year's winner is user - rgwb
We will be in touch
If its so ****ing easy in the public sector and the grass is so green come and ****ing work in the public sector. If not stfu!
No-one forced you to work in the private sector, you knew what you were gettiong yourself into, you had choices, just like we did. We signed up to x and have now had it changed to y, i am 100% sure that you lot would have a ****ing fit and throw your company Audi keys in!!
fair point well made.
+1.
Having worked in both sectors, it's the Private sector lot who seem a little shy of putting the graft in.
+1
Done both and the public was a joke. The ability to just dream up new job roles for people was incredible!
i am 100% sure that you lot would have a **** fit and throw your company Audi keys in!!
no we just get on with it as that's life in the real world, not some cosseted little fluffy bunny world of easy rides like you tossbags have had.
What gets me is for years the private sector laughed at the public sector wages and all the public sector could come back with was at least my pension is good. Now the public sector has been hit they seem to think It's our god given right for our pensions to be crap too
^ envy (Tazzy)
FWIW I am back in private, and let's be honest...the public sector work much harder. IME/IMO etc
no we just get on with it
LIES
Well that was a well thought through and communicated argument in favour of public sector workers. I bet you've won over a fair number to your cause.
Don't even start me on inefficiency in public sector, at least in the private sector employers are addressing it. In most cases.
And the public sector aren't?
LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL
(meanwhile, on planet Earth...)
I suspect most of those in the private sector could not do the jobs - I am certain they couldn't do mine or Mrs TJs jobs as they simply would not have the required skills - nor would they do it for the wages.
tazzymtb - Member
no we just get on with it as that's life in the real world, not some cosseted little fluffy bunny world of easy rides like you tossbags have had.
I think you're mistaking the public sector for the banking sector.
I don't know why that would be the case given that average public sector wages have been greater than average private sector wages for some time now.firestarter - Member
What gets me is for years the private sector laughed at the public sector wages
Don't even start me on inefficiency in public sector, at least in the private sector employers are addressing it. In most cases.
Give me a personal example...
druidh - Member
I don't know why that would be the case given that average public sector wages have been greater than average private sector wages for some time now.
Are you going to quote the tax payers alliance's research?
Having read the last 9 page thread, what stands out to me is the level of ignorance of some as to what A) the unions in their history have achieved for [b]all[/b] workers, and B)exactly what consists of a public sector job, a large proportion of council operations are carried out by private companies but because they are working on behalf of the council are presumed to be public sector. Quite shocking 👿
Druid average wages doesn't mean much , its like for like jobs where the difference shows
Bazz - Member
Having read the last 9 page thread, what stands out to me is the level of ignorance of some as to what A) the unions in their history have achieved for all workers, and B)exactly what consists of a public sector job, a large proportion of council operations are carried out by private companies but because they are working on behalf of the council are presumed to be public sector. Quite shocking
Spot on. Plus both 'sectors' are so diverse creating a dualism only plays into the hands of people who want to dumb the argument down to us vs them.
What i find interesting is that everyone i've spoken to who is employed in the public sector says they think private sector pensions should be of the quality as they receive, yet the proportion of people in the private sector who want that is much smaller. It appears many want parity, but based on a lower standard.
A fairly bitter and Indeedy pointless thread. We are all in the mire and really should ALL roll our sleeves up to find a way through it. You get wasters in both sectors. I do think there is probably more job roles that arnt needed in the public sector, I have always presumed various governments create them to be able to show unemployment going down 🙂
Tossbags?
Is that really the best insult you can think up?
Spot on. Plus both 'sectors' are so diverse creating a dualism only plays into the hands of people who want to dumb the argument down to us vs them.
Exactly.
druidhI don't know why that would be the case given that average public sector wages have been greater than average private sector wages for some time now.
Not when you actually look at equal skils / education / training =- private sector are far ahead.
Mrs TJ
degree in law, 25 years experience in her field, £20 000 pa
Me
diploma and degree qualified, 25 years experience in my field - £26000 ( fte)
And we are both doing jobs that not one of you private sector people could do
Argueargueargueargue.
Maybe we need a pay comparison thread?
here is a thought, lets stop asking whether the public sector or private sector is having a hard/easy time, and start asking why we accept being shafted by our bosses in both sectors. Are you telling me that senior civil servants are going to suffer in the changes? just like the way directors have suffered in the private sector.
Divide and conquer.
No - [url= http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-14028848 ]The Office of National Statistics[/url].CaptJon - Member
Are you going to quote the tax payers alliance's research?
Mrmo - actually they will do. Managers in the public sector almost all are a part of the same pensions, operate under the same t&cs and will get shafted the same - its another difference between the sectors.
And I'm yet to see any convincing evidence that making some old people poorer than they would be is going to save the country. We have been ****ed over yet again by a ruling class, a group of people who take our cash and our labour and use it to make their own lives better, to send their inbred offspring to private schools, to get their ailments dealt with in private hospitals, to live lives as far removed from that of ordinary people as their fetid sweaty grasping hands can achieve.
Divide and rule, make the poor private sector workers turn on the public sector workers while the SAME OLD BASTARDS RUN OFF WITH THE MONEY.
It's your country too y'know, and if you let them get away with it, they'll carry on.
Druidh - you need to look at equal qualifications then yo willfind a big difference.
From your link
Comparing the pay of these graduates flips the pay gap around, with public sector workers earning 5.7% less than those in the private sector.
TJ, not talking line managers, go further up the tree, MPs, civil service heads of departments
miketually - Member
Maybe we need a pay comparison thread?
Really?
The much bigger divide is between the unemployed, employed and the self-employed.
No - The Office of National Statistics
Did you read all the way to the end?
Over the past 10 years, the trend for low-skilled jobs to be outsourced to the private sector has continued, pushing up the average wage among public sector workers.In 2010, some 38% of workers had a degree or equivalent qualification in the public sector, compared with 23% in the private sector.
Comparing the pay of these graduates flips the pay gap around, with public sector workers earning 5.7% less than those in the private sector.
Within the two sectors, the gap between the highest earners - in the top 5% - and the lowest 5% of earners is greater in the private sector than in the public sector.
Really?
No 🙂
druidh - Member
No - The Office of National Statistics.
Seriously? If a first year came to the conclusion you did based on what that story says I'd fail them.
Fair point, well made.
So maybe our teachers should go to a profit making business to teach....
oh, hang on a moment...
Some sort of private sector school? What a spiffing idea!
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Me: Tax & NI collected this year 120k, Vat Collected and Paid 600k, my wages 20k my Mrs 20k my pension 10 k p.a. if I''m lucky after contributing for years.
The Public sector? Don't they educate the morons that can't read and write, the so called graduates that still have difficulty spelling the word. Don't they collect the bins er only once every two weeks these days? Don't they pay themselves more money than the PM yet withdraw care packages for the elderly? I seem to remember those Union Chiefs are paid from some of that tax money I collect.
Isn't it the public sector that'll put me in jail if I don't pay my VaT, yet wasn't it the public sector that lost millions in iceland and no-one was held responsible. Those Politicians that have ****ed things up, are they not in the public sector?
Yep lots of sympathy from me for the Public Sector.
I haven't got a pension, should I be worried?
Never worked in the public sector but I've worked for it, I've seen Quangos with half baked employees piss money up the wall and some of these should be fired no doubt about it. There are easy life jobs out there but by no means is this everybody in the public sector
You couldn't pay me enough to be a teacher / nurse / social worker, these people provide essential jobs and are on the whole underpaid. I'd be mighty anoid if my employer (me) decided to change one of the good things about my job.
So I say go ahead and stand up for your rights and Strike!
(if you're a teacher though can you strike at the weekend please because it's a right pain in the ass 😉 )
Derekrides - as you are a known troll, I am delighted to disregard your ill-informed ramblings.
So pleased you could contribute though.
Tossbags?
Is that really the best insult you can think up?
no I could tell you what I really think and get a very lengthy ban 😆
CaptJon - is this true or false...
The gap in average pay between workers in the public sector and those in the private sector has widened.Public sector employees were paid 7.8% more on average than private sector staff in April 2010, the Office for National Statistics (ONS) said.
This was a bigger gap than the 5.3% difference in 2007, the figures show.
Black and white, eh? Well, if you like thing simplified beyond the useful then you can have it, yes.
cruzheckler - Member
If its so * easy in the public sector and the grass is so green come and * work in the public sector. If not stfu!
I keep telling the wife to move into the public sector, problem is that it's a closed shop as they always require specific experience which can be only gained by training in the public sector for her profession
No-one forced you to work in the private sector, you knew what you were gettiong yourself into, you had choices, just like we did.
errr..... no, my private sector pension which was quite good and got screwed over by the firm and the Unions recommended we accept the shafting, just as they are now recommending accepting a non-consolidated payment in lieu of a pay rise which is shortermism gone mad. The same Unions that are recommending I support the fight for the pensions for others which they were too incompetent to defend in my own company.
We signed up to x and have now had it changed to y, i am 100% sure that you lot would have a **** fit and throw your company Audi keys in!!
I signed up to "X" and had it changed to "y", no company car keys to throw in
The arguments for reform would be a lot easier if the government shafted the MP/ EU pension schemes asap to show some leadership on the issue
CaptJon - is this true or false...The gap in average pay between workers in the public sector and those in the private sector has widened.
Public sector employees were paid 7.8% more on average than private sector staff in April 2010, the Office for National Statistics (ONS) said.This was a bigger gap than the 5.3% difference in 2007, the figures show.
And when they 'rightsource' the next tranche of low-level public workers the gap will grow again.
Anyway druidh, you're out of this fight aren't you, with your secure pension and early retirement? 🙂
Has it not become apparent yet that both sides of the argument can dig up statistics to "prove" their side of the argument? Maybe it's because the truth lies somewhere in the middle?
There is almost certainly waste and inefficiencies on both sides of the fence, and both sides do make attempts to address this, not always successfully but the quest goes on.
I am a public sector worker (not balloted, not striking - yet) and the biggest difference that i see is what capt.jon touched on earlier, most public sector workers would support private sector workers' right to better pensions, lets face many CEO's will have a far more superior pension than any of us, but alot of private sector workers seem to think that everyone should a bad pension if they have one. A result i fear of government and press misinfomation, exactly what they want. 🙄 🙄
I keep telling the wife to move into the public sector, problem is that it's a closed shop as they always require specific experience which can be only gained by training in the public sector for her profession
What profession is that? it is surprising that they want properly trained and accredited staff tho. After all anyone can do the job
Personally I think it's none of my business what anyone else gets paid, public OR private sector. 99% of the time the only wage I can have a direct impact on is my own, so the negativity here seems a bit pointless really.
If anyone is interested in some more explanation of the detail of the survey druidh linked to, watch this:
This is an interesting read too: http://www.badscience.net/2010/01/if-you-want-to-be-trusted-more-claim-less/
lets look at how the selfish actionss of my local primary school teachers are impacting others
parents at scool for dinner today.. so chance to have word with head who sent out letter saying school closed to all next wed.
staff have indicated they might strike so he s closing school but as its actually before the strike all staff will be paid as normal.. no school means no privately run before and after school club staff there all young mums.. have been laid off for day on no pay as ther ll be no kids.. mrs tts having to take 6 hours off work so shell be 210 down before tax this month..
seems there all right jack the rest of you can...
Oh what a shame your babysitters are on strike.
6 hours and earn £210 nice work if you can get it.
Mrs TJdegree in law, 25 years experience in her field, £20 000 pa
Me
diploma and degree qualified, 25 years experience in my field - £26000 ( fte)
And we are both doing jobs that not one of you private sector people could do
TJ, you been drinking? Not like you to make such crass unsupportable comments, Ernie maybe but whilst I don't often agree with your views they're usual fairly well articualted and coherent.
On another note
The much bigger divide is between the unemployed, employed and the self-employed.
More like
The much bigger divide is between the unemployable, employed and the grossly incompetant and overpaid.
The comments section under this [url= http://www.****/news/article-2065479/Public-sector-workers-earn-4-000-year-pay-premium-compared-private-staff.html#ixzz1ebcgZ2IF ][i]Daily Fail[/i][/url] article (essentially a regurgitation of TPA spin on public sector salaries) is on [i]fire[/i].
I know of plenty of desperately short-staffed elderly care wards - journos who peddle this kind of BS should be forcibly conscripted as care assistants. I'll happily break them in. 😈
stevewhyte - MemberOh what a shame your babysitters are on strike.
6 hours and earn £210 nice work if you can get it.
£35 an hr is not a lot for someone at the top of their profession really is it ffs. If you think you deserve to earn that using your knowledge, skills, experience get a job as a teacher?
lets look at how the selfish actionss of my local primary school teachers are impacting others
parents at scool for dinner today.. so chance to have word with head who sent out letter saying school closed to all next wed.
staff have indicated they might strike so he s closing school but as its actually before the strike all staff will be paid as normal.. no school means no privately run before and after school club staff there all young mums.. have been laid off for day on no pay as ther ll be no kids.. mrs tts having to take 6 hours off work so shell be 210 down before tax this month..seems there all right jack the rest of you can...
Why are parents not grouping together to share the child care on Wednesday? There must be three in each class who're off work anyway that day who can look after ten kids each. Perhaps your wife could offer to look after some other kids for half the day as a swap, so she only has to miss 3 hours at work?
£35 an hr is not a lot for someone at the top of their profession really is it ffs.
True; I get £41 for every hour of contact time that I have now that I'm at the top of the higher pay scale.
Which works out at about £23 for every hour that I'm actually [i]at[/i] work. Assuming that I work evenings, weekends and holidays at home for free.
£35 an hr is not a lot for someone at the top of their profession really is it ffs
Hmmm! It's a lot more than I get and I'm at the top of mine.
Actually I've just checked, it's twice what I get before enhancements for working weekends, nights and bank holidays.
totalshell, I think the teachers are trying to avoid being £200 per month down for the rest of their working lives. Doesn't seem to balance all that well with your wife losing a single days pay, on reflection.
Come to think of it, why doesn't your wife use some of her holiday entitlement instead of unpaid leave? Funny you know I'm having to look at arrangements too as our school is closed, so probably have to pay some childcare for that.
cruzheckler - Member
£35 an hr is not a lot for someone at the top of their profession really is it ffs. If you think you deserve to earn that using your knowledge, skills, experience get a job as a teacher?
PMSL i did and i am and i sure dont get £35
Muppet
£35 an hour?
I have never got close to that - thats £70 000 pa. 3 times average wage near enough. Few public sector workers will
so i am a "muppet" for earning more than you? explain?
Come to think of it, why doesn't your wife use some of her holiday entitlement instead of unpaid leave? Funny you know I'm having to look at arrangements too as our school is closed, so probably have to pay some childcare for that.
Who would do it? He doesn't seem to think the people he entrusts to educate and care for his children are worthy of decent pay and conditions.
I work from home and have grown up kids so could easily look after half a dozen kids next week
fully social services approved say - £35/hr each?
😀
On a serious note, public sector spending increased by more than 50% over the term of the last labour government (£451bn to £688bn at constant 2010-11 prices).
In 1999 the government spent £343bn, which would have been £440bn by 2009/10 had it only increased by inflation. Instead it had reached £670bn.
The extra spending arguably did nothing to improve the provision or efficiency of public services in general, in fact ONS evidence suggests the opposite.
The extra spending simply expanded the public sector at the expense of everyone else, and was funded through labours profligate borrowing and stealth taxes.
The spending was done for the sole purpose of buying voters by increasing the size of the labour voting public sector. And because the labour government thought that everyone had entitlements but no obligations.
If you work in the public sector on one level I have some sympathy, no-one wants to lose more of their paycheque each month (even if the amount you are being asked to pay into your still gold plated pensions is small compared to what most other people have to, or more likely can't, pay for less provision). However, from a fundamentally moral or intellectual perspective, why should you expect, or feel entitled to a pension commitment from the taxpayer which is unaffordable to those providing it?
Furthermore, if your entitlement requires the country to borrow more than it can possibly sustain, how can you reconcile your entitlement then?
Why do we need the level of public sector employment that currently exists, i.e. that funded by an increase of 50% in public spending?
bainbrge - Member
On a seriod note, public sector spending increased by more than 50% over the term of the last labour government (£451bn to £688bn at constant 2010-11 prices).In 1999 the government spent £343bn, which would have been £440bn by 2009/10 had it only increased by inflation. Instead it had reached £670bn.
The extra spending arguably did nothing to improve the provision or efficiency of public services in general, in fact ONS evidence suggests the opposite.
The extra spending simply expanded the public sector at the expense of everyone else, and was funded through labours profligate borrowing and stealth taxes.
The spending was done for the sole purpose of buying voters by increasing the size of the labour voting public sector. And because the labour government thought that everyone had entitlements but no obligations.
If you work in the public sector on one level I have some sympathy, no-one wants to lose more of their paycheque each month (even if the amount you are being asked to pay into your still gold plated pensions is small compared to what most other people have to, or more likely can't, pay for less provision). However, from a fundamentally moral or intellectual perspective, why should you expect, or feel entitled to a pension commitment from the taxpayer which is unaffordable to those providing it?
Furthermore, if your entitlement requires the country to borrow more than it can possibly sustain, how can you reconcile your entitlement then?
Why do we need the level of public sector employment that currently exists, i.e. that funded by an increase of 50% in public spending?
Do a proper analysis of the numbers, and include the caveats, then try again without the political BS.
That's true. Given the choice of hanging on through the various rounds of redundancies and having been both out-sourced and in-sourced, and having re-applied for my own job on three occasions previously, I took the option of reducing my income by 2/3rds, taking a lower pension than I would otherwise have been entitled to.vinnyeh - Member
Anyway druidh, you're out of this fight aren't you, with your secure pension and early retirement?
Of course I also lost all those lovely share options that I'd been enticed with and the shares I actually owned turned out to be worthless.
I guess I should have been more of a man and stuck it out, hoping that I'd always be able to make the cut, but sometimes there's more to life than just the money - like being able to go and ride a bike almost whenever I want 🙂
CaptJon - MemberDo a proper analysis of the numbers, and include the caveats, then try again without the political BS.
That post was not woth responding to but well done for keeping it short and to the point. 🙂
Thanks for the advice CaptJon, but I didn't have to do a proper analysis, someone else did it for me! Plagiarism is a terrible thing, however all the numbers are from the ONS.
I tried to amend to remove the political BS for you though:
On a serious note, public sector spending increased by more than 50% over the term of the last labour government (£451bn to £688bn at constant 2010-11 prices).
In 1999 the government spent £343bn, which would have been £440bn by 2009/10 had it only increased by inflation. Instead it had reached £670bn.The extra spending arguably did nothing to improve the provision or efficiency of public services in general, in fact ONS evidence suggests the opposite.
The extra spending simply expanded the public sector [s]at the expense of everyone else[/s], and was funded through labours profligate borrowing and stealth taxes.
The spending was done for the [s]sole[/s] purpose of buying voters by increasing the size of the labour voting public sector. And because the labour government thought that everyone had entitlements [s]but no obligations[/s].
If you work in the public sector on one level I have some sympathy, no-one wants to lose more of their paycheque each month (even if the amount you are being asked to pay into your still gold plated pensions is small compared to what most other people have to, or more likely can't, pay for less provision). However, from a fundamentally moral or intellectual perspective, why should you expect, or feel entitled to a pension commitment from the taxpayer which is unaffordable to those providing it?
Furthermore, if your entitlement requires the country to borrow more than it can possibly sustain, how can you reconcile your entitlement then?
Why do we need the level of public sector employment that currently exists, i.e. that funded by an increase of 50% in public spending?
bainbrge -
The extra spending arguably did nothing to improve the provision or efficiency of public services in general, in fact ONS evidence suggests the opposite.
Errmm-massive improvements in outcomes in the NHS. efficiency no - as health services are only efficient when rationed - reduce waiting times and increase flexibility you decrease efficiency as crudely measured - also improvements in care that cost more show up as decreased efficiency.
Takle an insulin pump for example - cost more to run, cost a lot to train staff an patients, makes huge improvements in life and outcomes
its the difference between price ana value
Still full of bullshit just look at the pejorative terms and outright lies
Where did yo copy and paste it from? taxpayers alliance?
pejorativegold plated pensions
pejorativearguably did nothing
profligate borrowing and stealth taxes.
outright liepension commitment from the taxpayer which is unaffordable to those providing it?
outright lieborrow more than it can possibly sustain,
Errmm-massive improvements in outcomes in the NHS. efficiency no - as health services are only efficient when rationed - reduce waiting times and increase flexibility you decrease efficiency as crudely measured - also improvements in care that cost more show up as decreased efficiency.Takle an insulin pump for example - cost more to run, cost a lot to train staff an patients, makes huge improvements in life and outcomes
its the difference between price ana value
Specific point accepted. However, it depends what type of public sector spending you look at, and we could go on for ever with competing examples. Did the GP funding deal entered into by labour improve outcomes or just GP salaries?
It's fundamentally difficult to measure productivity in the public sector, and very easy in the private. However, the general point still stands, are we 50% better off as a nation as a result of a 50% increase in public spending, on any measure at all?
Maybe if the spending had been more focused on the right things rather than just more employees?
However, the general point still stands, are we 50% better off as a nation as a result of a 50% increase in public spending, on any measure at all?
Define the nation being better off? So we can measure.
Did the GP funding deal entered into by labour improve outcomes or just GP salaries?
Outcomes - far better care of the chronically sick in the community - might even have saved money by reducing hospital admissions
In the next 20yrs there will be a civil war.
I just hope I'm still young enough to fight.
Maybe if the spending had been more focused on the right things rather than just more employees
Public services are provided by people - thats what costs the money - people
hora - MemberIn the next 20yrs there will be a civil war.
I just hope I'm still young enough to fight.
Posted 17 seconds ago # Report-Post
You would end up swapping guns every five minutes and being shot!!
TJ - some pejorative terms but there's no law against that! Indeed 'gold plated pensions' to my mind is descriptive and simply means 'final salary pensions'.
In terms of outright lies I beg to differ, but feel free to argue that the debt burden of the UK government is sustainable...not sure who will listen though. Certainly not the people who fund it.
Public services are provided by people - thats what costs the money - people
Just not this many people...on final salary pensions.