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Well I say it's CLEARLY PROVEN that increases in speed lead to increases in severity and likelihood of accidents so therefore I DECLARE that anyone who drives over 10MPH is a DANGEROUS CRIMINAL and should be SLAPPED in the FACE with a KIPPER.
/thread
Current modern research using current information says English law us out of date.
In your opinion, but not in the opinion of those who make the law. Still, you know best I guess!!!
It would seem that the law is working too. Here's some statistics for you.
Back in the mid 70's drink driving was a factor in 60% of all traffic fatalities. Today they are just 12%
To quote from a recent study - Analyses by scientists indicate that over 70% of people in crashes caused by alcohol met alcohol dependence criteria, but most have never been arrested or received treatment.
In Australia where drink drive limits are much less than the UK, there are three times the percentage of people being killed in drink driving accidents than in the UK.
So it's pretty clear that the current laws are hugely successful in bringing down alcohol deaths. It's also blatantly clear that reducing the limit won't really do that much to combat the issue when the real issue is those who flout the current limits, and those with alcohol dependency issues. Target these people, not the rest of us.
@kananga – not all those pubs shut because of the smoking ban. What was the rate of closure before the smoking ban came in to force.
I don't know, why don't you enlighten us?
No, there’s been that many closures over 18 years the ban came in 2007. The biggest contribution being the rise of cheap supermarket alcohol and there’s a big link to the recession too, the smoking ban was only a small part of it.
The numbers I referred to were since the smoking ban, not before. Google it if you don't believe me. Sure many of these pubs had probably had their margins cut by recession, people drinking at home etc but the smoking ban was the final straw. Changes to the law meaning that a person can't risk a single pint and drive would be the final straw for many more of those pubs that are still just abut hanging in there. Closing a village pub not only means that the village has no more social hub, but also job losses not only in the pub, but in the pub's supply chain too.
The numbers I referred to were since the smoking ban, not before. Google it if you don’t believe me.
How about you link them? With that also evidence that it's due the smoking ban not increase in taxes, rates and cheap alcohol in pubs.
Kananga - have you read the north report I linked to? I suggest you do if you think thre is no evidence for changes to the law. ~This is why scotland has a lower limit.
"In your opinion, but not in the opinion of those who make the law"
The guy who advised on the existing level has said knowing what he knows now he would not have set it at 0.8 in 1967 as the data sets used totset it was already 10 years old
Then the north report came to similar conclusions.
Can't link direct to the PDF from phone
How about you link them?
Perhaps even more relevant - Scotland, where there is a lower alcohol limit.
https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/654184/Scottish-pubs-shut-decade-smoking-ban-drink-limit-crisis
jobs or avoidable deaths.
Depends how you prioritise these things really doesn't it ?
There is zero evidence that the scottish lowered limit has had any effect at all - and anyway do you think at least 60 deaths a year is a reasonable price to pay for keeping a few rural pubs open?
The Express will distort anything to attack the SNP
I think spesh made the old tee shirt. "Innovate or die"
At least one of my local rural pubs has a shuttle bus that will collect you and drop you off after a meal and drinks
They are doing well.
Oh well done you've posted a link from the Express. 😂
Kananga – have you read the north report I linked to? I suggest you do if you think thre is no evidence for changes to the law. ~This is why scotland has a lower limit.
TJ, there are some strong arguments for reducing the limit sure, there are also some strong arguments against it and instead of targeting those who drink responsibly (penalizing everyone), why not simply direct resource towards targeting those who do drink and drive. This would involve more police on the road in problem areas.
As has been shown in some other countries, having a lower drink drive limit does not necessarily reduce drink drive casualties over a country with higher limits. Better enforcement of the current limits would almost certainly reduce casualties however since people would realise that they just can't get away with it (which they easily can at the moment). The biggest gain is not targeting everyone but instead targeting the problem drinkers.
Did you not see my statistic above that 70% of people involved in driving driving related accidents have alcohol dependancy issues? This implies that it's not those having a single post ride pint who are the big problem. I suspect most of the rest of them know that with few police on the roads, they can just get away with it. Do you think a change in the drink drive limit would discourage them? Not a chance!
do you think at least 60 deaths a year is a reasonable price to pay for keeping a few rural pubs open?
Well, I don't know about where you live but certainly here in the West Country all of our lovely country pubs are only able to stay in business due to the throngs of drivers piling into the bars to drink their single pints before carefully driving off to their AIM courses.
when I lived in Kendal, there was 4 ex postmen who worked at my firm. Three of them were heavy drinkers (at least one was an alcoholic, we found cans in his van), the fourth one was teetotal, he used to tell me how great it was working for the post offiice, when I asked him why he left he said because virtually nobody made it to retirement because of the heavy drinking culture there , people just pegged out, every day it was in the pub for the remainder of the afternoon after your shift.
There is zero evidence that the scottish lowered limit has had any effect at all – and anyway do you think at least 60 deaths a year is a reasonable price to pay for keeping a few rural pubs open?
You may also find though that keeping rural pubs open provides a better quality of life for everyone. If you're that bothered by deaths on the road though them why haven't you taken your advanced driving test? Or do you just prefer to preach to others about what they should or shouldn't do?
I know it's fashionable to get all pious about these things and I'm sure lots of hand-wringers will jump down my throat but frankly 60 deaths per year is **** all when you consider the size of the at-risk population. It's not even a large proportion of road deaths. 60,000 (yes, sixty thousand) die of alzheimer's and believe it or not we all die of something.
believe it or not we all die of something.
Would be of boredom if TJ and Drac got their way!
If you’re that bothered by deaths on the road though them why haven’t you taken your advanced driving test?
Why are so obsessed by this?
Would be of boredom if TJ and Drac got their way!
One pint in a pub will never be very exciting.
If you’re that bothered by deaths on the road though them why haven’t you taken your advanced driving test?
Why are so obsessed by this?
Because if you haven't done anything yourself to improve your own skills then you are not really in a position to lecture to others about possible shortcoming's in theirs.
Drac are you just here to troll?
One pint in a pub will never be very exciting.
Maybe not for you but for others, me included then it's a looked forward part of a ride or Sunday lunch etc.
One pint in a pub will never be very exciting.
One pint in a pub with some friends can be a very enjoyable way to relax. If you need to get plastered to have fun I respectfully suggest you're the one with the problem.
I've done my defensive driving courses through work for driving in the USA, west africa and other places with terrible driving.
I may have missed the part where they talked about having a pint before driving defensively.
Because if you haven’t done anything yourself to improve your own skills then you are not really in a position to lecture to others about possible shortcoming’s in theirs.
That does not require an AIM though, you can make you driving safer without one of those. Stop speeding, drive at a sensible speed to the conditions, keep you car maintained or not have any alcohol when driving. They're just a few things that can be done. You being presumptuous that anyone who mentions drink drivers hasn't done anything about their own driving.
No I'm not trolling I'm still puzzled why you think the AIM is a god send and allows you to comment on drink driving laws.
One pint in a pub with some friends can be a very enjoyable way to relax. If you need to get plastered to have fun I respectfully suggest you’re the one with the problem.
No I don't need alcohol to have fun or relax for that matter but it has been known. I'm very partial to a pint or 3, funnily enough I was out Saturday night for a few which meant the car didn't move until yesterday evening.
Maybe not for you but for others, me included then it’s a looked forward part of a ride or Sunday lunch etc.
Not sure that is a definition of excitement.
I may have missed the part where they talked about having a pint before driving defensively.
Can you still drive defensively after a single pint though, sure you can.
No I’m not trolling I’m still puzzled why you think the AIM is a god send and allows you to comment on drink driving laws.
I'm more puzzled why someone who seems to care so much about road deaths would not have done such a course, or similar? I'm not a member of the IAM by the way, although have taken and passed their course in the past.
You know you're on thin ice when you start quoting the Express.
I’m more puzzled why someone who seems to care so much about road deaths would not have done such a course, or similar?
So you're saying you would accept my opinion if I'd done such a similar course and was assessed every 5 years, held a certificate rather the just past the AIM course some years previously?
Interesting.
You being presumptuous that anyone who mentions drink drivers hasn’t done anything about their own driving.
I have asked and only one person has come forward.
Why should anyone need to get extra training?
There is a legal standard of driving that is required to be met once.
The law makers have not deemed it necessary to make any significant changes to this for years.
I will have a pint before driving.
I tow stuff without any extra training.
I occasionally speed on motorways.
The only extra training I have had was a Lantra Off Road course for work.
So you’re saying you accept my opinion if I’d done such a simily course and was assessed every 5 years, held a certificate rather the just past the AIM course some years previously?
Interesting.
Nope I'm saying that if you care about deaths on the road - go and get some further driver training before complaining about what others do or don't do. If you have then great. If you haven't then I suggest you do and that if everyone did then it would have a HUGE positive impact on road safety - a far, far bigger impact than reducing the alcohol limit by a few %. Stop trying to twist my words Drac to try and catch me out to win your own pedantic little argument.
I suspect Drac given his job and his training is one of the highest trained and most highly skilled drivers on here.
I suspect Drac given his job and his training is one of the highest trained and most highly skilled drivers on here.
That's great TJ - but are you?
Nope I’m saying that if you care about deaths on the road – go and get some further driver training before complaining about what others do or don’t do.
Ok this is why I'm not twisting your words. This is a nice thing for people to do and I'd recommend people do a AIM I've said this before on previous threads. However it does not mean you can't complain about driving standards especially drink driving without one. People can alter the driving standards easily enough as I pointed out above.
Not sure I'd go that far TJ but cheers.
However it does not mean you can’t complain about driving standards especially drink driving without one.
But why would you complain about the driving standards of others but then not seek to improve your own standards - it doesn't make any sense?
All it demonstrates is that people are happy to whinge about what others should do, but cant be bothered to do anything about it themselves.
But why would you complain about the driving standards of others but then not seek to improve your own standards – it doesn’t make any sense?
How do you know they haven’t? Biggest change I did was to stop speeding that was years after I did my training. Once again so you get it, you don’t need an AIM to change you’re driving standards.
How do you know they haven’t?
Because (as I've said for the third time) I've asked on here and only one person came forward, TJ not included.
Oh and it's IAM, not AIM. Plenty of other options there though as you said.
I give up. Suns out so off to do some work at the cricket club, might have a pint too.
A bunch of the folk on here are emergency vehicle drivers. Trained to a much higher standard than most. I don't know if any of the coppers are pursuit trained - IIRC the highest level
Personally - I did a good few hours of advanced training with an ex police biker and IAM assessor.
You do know what Drac does as a job don't you?
You do know what Drac does as a job don’t you?
Why don't you just tell us instead of speaking in riddles TJ?
He drives the fake taxi. Highly skilled.
IIRC he is a senior paramedic training other paramedics. Trained himself to a very high standard of driving for driving emergency vehicles. Far higher standard that you. I am sure he could say more
Several of the other contributors to this thread are also emergency vehicle drivers. Dunno if any are pursuit trained - obvuiously the cops need to hold their cards close
so when you are arguing in ignorance against that level of expertise you do end up looking somewhat foolish
@kananga – my we are a sensitive little soul aren’t we?
You're not getting the subtext of all his postings. Check out the windsurfing one for example on page 1 or 2. He's not a sensitive little soul, he's a hard drinking, hard living adventurer, living life on the edge and not playing by anybody's rules. If I was a woman I'd be throwing myself at him.
so when you are arguing in ignorance against that level of expertise you do end up looking somewhat foolish
So in your eyes TJ in order of hierarchy of people qualified to comment it goes as follows:
1 - Emergency vehicle drivers.
2 - YOU
3 - Everyone else.
4 - Those who have done some additional driver training off their own back, but who don't agree with you, relegated below 3 as you believe that it makes them too confident for their own good.
You are a complete clown. Get off your high horse and stop being argumentative for the sake of it.
pot kettle black
😉
You have been told you are wrong by folk much better trained than you, You have been shown thr evidence that shows you to be wrong but still you insist drink driving is OK.