[Closed] Ahhh the moral absolutism of religion

Rapists do well in the catholic church so it's no surprise.

The Catholic church becomes more of a satire of itself with every day that passes....

can't believe the gall of it....

Sadly I can.

Sadly I can.

At one point Richard Dawkins made me uncomfortable, I'm really starting to come round to his intolerant point of view now.

if only religion was irrelevant - that's why aetheists get so angry - the fact that belief in a few fairy tales can end up having so much effect on the world around them...

well they made the right choice following their rules

Shows how shite their rules are.

This kind of crap would make me go postal in the vatican if I had a terminal disease, I really mean that.

The rapist....as much as he his a monster....is entitled to a trial....I can't say the same about the Vatican.

I'd like to think all involved said "Well **** you then catholic church" and became pastafarians.

Is it not a bit weird to be disagree with someone being excommunicated from the church if you believe the church has no meaning ?

9 year old girl excommunicated for having an abortion after being raped, the rapist on the other hand is not.

The girl was not excommunicated.

(At least not according to the article you linked to)

I think you'd be doing well to find much support for that view anywhere outside of a very small portion of the leaders of the Catholic Church.
This is where the anger should be directed.

This kind of crap would make me go postal in the vatican if I had a terminal disease, I really mean that.

The rapist....as much as he his a monster....is entitled to a trial....I can't say the same about the Vatican.

Are you not exhibiting a bit of moral absolutism yourself there?

I've already forgiven them which will hurt them far more than running amok in the Vatican.

Is it not a bit weird to be disagree with someone being excommunicated from the church if you believe the church has no meaning ?

I thought the same. Excommunication means that the person can't receive holy communion, I'm a bit baffled why some people on here should be outraged by that - unless of course they are catholics.

Boils my blood, although they did the poor girl a favour being excommunicated. Who would want to be part of an organisation after that anyway.

I thought the same. Excommunication means that the person can't receive holy communion, I'm a bit baffled why some people on here should be outraged by that - unless of course they are catholics.

Exactly, just seems a bit strange to me how people who disagree with religion can get wound up about this 😐

"just seems a bit strange to me how people who disagree with religion can get wound up about this"
+1 to this. Practising catholics think it is better for a 9 year old girl to die during labour taking her unborn fetuses with her rather than have a life saving operation . Practising catholics think that the mother who consents to her childs life being saved and the Dr who saves the child should not be in their gang .

This is entirely their business the rational world should just shrug it's shoulders and move on. Nothing new to see here. I'm glad the catholic religion has no place in ,defining morals, the education of the young or the formulation of our laws

I did not realise you needed to belong to a group or be directly affected in order to speak out

Thanks for the clarification

Utterly stupid comments about people getting upset about a religion, its more about how they treated an innocent 9 year old girl and punished her and not her attacker. Idiots 🙄

You don't need to belong to the group to comment.

I'm not for one minute saying people can't have an opinion, I'm just saying I find the logic behind the opinion difficult to understand.

It just seems strange how people seem to be horrified by someone being excluded from something they think is totally bogus and meaningless.

Well of course Junkyard you can speak out in support of the doctor's and the judge's right to receive holy communion, if it bothers you that much. I'm just understandably surprised that it does bother you.

It just seems strange how people seem to be horrified by someone being excluded from something they think is totally bogus and meaningless.

What if the individual is being excluded through no fault of their own and does not want to be excluded? That would be wrong even though the thing they are excluded from is bunkum.

its more about how they treated an innocent 9 year old girl and punished her and not her attacker.

But they didn't. In your outrage you forgot to read the article properly.

if only religion was irrelevant - that's why aetheists get so angry - the fact that belief in a few fairy tales can end up having so much effect on the world around them...

This

What if the individual is being excluded through no fault of their own and does not want to be excluded?

Well considering the people who seem to be most appalled are people who dislike religious indoctrination of children.
Then surely the girl is better off now ?

(Even though she's not actually been excommunicated)

Can't be bothered debating this with pompous contributors.

Can't be bothered debating this with pompous contributors.

Which ones are those.

The ones that can read articles accurately ?

flippinheckler - Member

Can't be bothered debating this with pompous contributors.

To be fair you couldn't even be bothered to read the article properly.

Are you not exhibiting a bit of moral absolutism yourself there?

I've already forgiven them which will hurt them far more than running amok in the Vatican.

Good point.

Which ones are those.

The ones that can read articles accurately ?

My mistake, I still think it's just as outrageous that they excommunicated the mother and the doctors. My outrage meter went berserk.

Other than that, those who made the point that if your an atheist you shouldn't care that they were excommunicated. Fair point, although I'm willing to bet the poor mother was hurt by it going on my experience with Brazilians.

A lot of people still take their faith very dearly and I'm sure issues like this cause a lot of harm emotionally in the religious world - an organization treating people with such contempt disgusts me. The leaders of various churches seem to be hell bent on making themselves irrelevant as fast as possible.

Even by the normal religion thread standards this one went down quicky, ah well; I have no useful contribution to make as they say.

Jose Cardoso Sobrinho, the conservative regional archbishop for Pernambuco where the girl was rushed to hospital, has said that the man would not be thrown out of the Church, because although he had allegedly committed “a heinous crime”, the Church took the view that “the abortion, the elimination of an innocent life, was more serious”.

Well, I guess that is their view but also the opinion of a sizeable proportion of pro-lifers. Personally I'm just glad the pro-lifers have not currently got their way with our law makers. Couldn't give two hoots about the excommunication but would struggle to have a rational debate with someone with those sort of views.

...although I'm willing to bet the poor mother was hurt by it going on my experience with Brazilians.

She quite possibly saved her daughter's life - I doubt whether she's that upset.

This absurd and ridiculous decision isn't a reflection on the power of the church imo, but the opposite - its weaknesses. Most catholics and/or Brazilians will see it for what it is - an absurd and ridiculous decision, that can only undermine the credibility of the church's hierarchy.

But in the eyes of the atheists they haven't punished her.

This absurd and ridiculous decision isn't a reflection on the power of the church imo, but the opposite - its weaknesses. Most catholics and/or Brazilians will see it for what it is - an absurd and ridiculous decision, that can only undermine the credibility of the church's hierarchy.

I really hope you are right.

But in the eyes of the atheists they haven't punished her.

Really???? I think atheists can see the punishment without themselves believing in god - if excommunication is a big deal to those involved.

It's also the moral philosophy underpinning the decision that gets under my skin though. This kind of thinking ends up legitimizing these views in the eyes of religious idiots everywhere.

[url= http://www.aljazeera.com/news/middleeast/2013/02/201323223618362435.html ]Islam doesn't seem to have these ethical dilemmas,not in Saudi anyway[/url]

Islam doesn't seem to have these ethical dilemmas,not in Saudi anyway

And this thread just hit an even darker level.

[s]Something seems a bit fishy with this story can anyone else find another credible source? There are lots of stories of a 9 year old girl in Mexico giving birth a few days ago. That seems like a monumental coincidence given the rarity of births to mothers of this age.[/s]

Scratch that. The independent is also reporting it. Still a bizarre coincidence.

But in the eyes of the atheists they haven't punished her.

I think most people can empathise with the suffering they are trying to inflict on her even if they think she is deluded in her belief.

Time magazine as well, granted that it seems to be fairly old news.

Islam doesn't seem to have these ethical dilemmas,not in Saudi anyway

I'm not exactly seeing what Islam has to do with that story, other than it being in Saudi.

Can I also just say that the way some people and tarring the whole church because of the comments and actions of a few is blatant prejudice. It's a bit like saying all black men are rapists because of one report of that happening.

Can I also just say that the way some people and tarring the whole church because of the comments of a few is blatant prejudice. It's a bit like saying all black men are rapists because of one report of that happening.

Yes but it this case it's a bit like the NAACP announcing that they like rape.

Also just seen that the story is four years old. Likely it was seen because of what happened recently in Mexico.

Why do you keep mentioning Dawkins?

Well....figureheads of a organization followed by millions and millions throughout the world and all that.

Of course your right though, there are plenty of good religious folk and institutions (eg the CofE) including swathes of the Catholic community who would be appalled by this.

Why do you keep mentioning Dawkins?

I don't know, as an example of an evangelizing atheist and someone I don't particularly like?

Can I also just say that the way some people and tarring the whole church because of the comments of a few is blatant prejudice. It's a bit like saying all black men are rapists because of one report of that happening.

While that is a perfectly good point, this is a thread about religion on STW.

There doesn't seem to be any rules about anti religious prejudice.

(I'm not religious by the way)

I don't think anyone has tarred all religious people with the same brush yet.

I have no useful contribution to make

Cougar - Moderator

Islam doesn't seem to have these ethical dilemmas,not in Saudi anyway

I'm not exactly seeing what Islam has to do with that story, other than it being in Saudi.

I don't know, as an example of an evangelizing atheist and someone I don't particularly like?

The thread seems to be a vehicle for your own prejudices

The thread seems to be a vehicle for your own prejudices

Your offended by my problem with Dawkins?

surfer - Member

I think most people can empathise with the suffering they are trying to inflict on her even if they think she is deluded in her belief.

In a nutshell.

Your offended by my problem with Dawkins?

I'm not offended at all, why should I be. He appears to have offended you however.

Youve created the straw man

evangelizing atheist and someone I don't particularly like?

I'm not offended at all, why should I be. He appears to have offended you however.

Youve created the straw man

Whatever.

Bwaarp I may have overstated slightly about tarring with the same brush but the very first comment after your original post was this

Rapists do well in the catholic church so it's no surprise.

That's just blatantly offensive and it does suggest that the whole church is like this.

I don't think anyone has tarred all religious people with the same brush yet.

Practising catholics think it is better for a 9 year old girl to die during labour taking her unborn fetuses with her rather than have a life saving operation . Practising catholics think that the mother who consents to her childs life being saved and the Dr who saves the child should not be in their gang .

That's just blatantly offensive and it does suggest that the whole church is like this.

Apologies on that posters behalf Geetee as I started this thread. I can understand why you would find that offensive.

I do however think that some of the followers could do more to push for change in catholic church though.

But that's a long way from trying to tar all Catholics.

The mod's should lock this thread - I don't want to hurt the community by making you all bitter at each other.

Apologies to all.

I applaud you Bwaarp and thank you. I was brought up catholic but lapsed a long time ago and now consider myself an atheist but my parents are still very much in the church as are a lot of people I care about.

I didn't lapse because of the terrible indiscretions of the church but it certainly made it easier.

I applaud you Bwaarp and thank you. I was brought up catholic but lapsed a long time ago and now consider myself an atheist but my parents are still very much in the church as are a lot of people I care about.

I didn't lapse because of the terrible indiscretions of the church but it certainly made it easier.

It's ok mate, I understand this is a sensitive issue and better left out of a forum to be dealt with in other avenues of public discourse.

It's in the interests of the community for members to be able to come on to the forum and not see things that are hurtful.

It was stupid of me to write the OP in the first place - I reported my thread so it should be locked soon.

dawkins is right --one day all this will be seen for what it is, infantile disorder....

Please don't apologise on my behalf. It is a fact, a well proven fact, that the catholic church has a long history of the sexual and mental abuse of children including rape and the extensive covering up that abuse by those at the highest levels, hence my comment. It is not levelled at all Catholics simply at the Catholic Church.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_sex_abuse_cases

terrible indiscretions

Joolsburger I'm catholic, I went to a catholic primary school.. You really don't need to explain it to me. The word 'church' means everyone in it. The 'church' did not do these things. Individuals did these things and other individuals covered it up. I found your comments deeply offensive.

don't you guys ever get bored of this?..

Humans, so highly evolved with their endless chittering..

[img] [/img]

Kevevs i get bored of hypocrisy and I get bored with morons like joolsburger betraying their bigotry.

To go off on a wee tangent - the Vatican is the most disgusting place I've ever been to. The high altar being the worst part of it. Such extravagance when there's people starving and in poverty - sickened me to the core.

If everytime an organisation/group did something we had to add caveats about how it was individuals within that organisation we would be here for ever

Football fans rioted - what all of them everywhere?

Cyclists involved in a race - what every cyclist in the world turned up to race etc

It should be clear when someone means the church as a political hierarchical organisation or all the worshippers within the worshippers/believers tbh.

Its clear the church, in some areas, did turn a blind eye to these /try to hide them lest the churches image was harmed and some cases at a very high level indeed.

If i say the catholic church was guilty of systematically covering up child abuse would i really need to point out that I dont mean every single catholic in the world for clarity?

Junkyard you've just defended the very premise for prejudice by saying that you don't feel the need to differentiate between the guilty individuals and the group they belong to.

So unless you don't want to be a hypocrite I would say yes, you should differentiate.

[i]Can I also just say that the way some people and tarring the whole church because of the comments of a few is blatant prejudice. It's a bit like saying all black men are rapists because of one report of that happening.[/i]

Black men don't convince a large group of other black men that rape is acceptable.

It is not the members of the church who are bad, they for the most part simply have some beliefs. It is the evil and stupid few who lead the church who pour tar all over their followers by making statements like this idiot in Mexico has.

Black men don't convince a large group of other black men that rape is acceptable.

What you don't think that there aren't examples of that in black culture? You're not going to have to look very deeply to find exactly that and a lot of other pretty unacceptable prejudicial ideas. You think black culture is uniformly accepting of homosexuality?

I am not defending what members of the Catholic Church did. My own personal experiences put me on the side of the
Victims. But I am not on the side of hypocrisy.

To go off on a wee tangent - the Vatican is the most disgusting place I've ever been to. The high altar being the worst part of it. Such extravagance when there's people starving and in poverty - sickened me to the core.

I thought the Vatican was ace - was well impressed with Michelangelo's fancy ceiling.

What were you expecting glupton - why did you go ?

Well mods....I did ask....

bwaarp - Member

Well mods....I did ask....

Mark doesn't like religion so expect this to roll on for 20 plus pages.

Rank hypocrisy

Calling someone who disagrees with you a bigoted moron, are you sure you're not still a catholic? I'll give you one thing, you are certainly committed. I'm not biting defend them if you want, doesn't change a thing.

Junkyard you've just defended the very premise for prejudice by saying that you don't feel the need to differentiate between the guilty individuals and the group they belong to.

Can you actualy read - where did I say this ?
I say the statements dont mean what you wish to interpret them as

I say you are seeing prejudice and statements that are just not there and failing to understand what people mean
Phrases such as "church" are used all the time
Catholic church opposes gay marriage - do you think you will get hits from google on that for example?
and you should be able to differentiate as to what it refers to [ church as an organisation or church as in ALL followers]- if you cannot then you are going to see prejudice and offence everywhere

So unless you don't want to be a hypocrite I would say yes, you should differentiate.

Egyptians protest - what they are all protesting every last one of them even the govt

I could be here all night giving you examples where we all know what they mean

[i]What you don't think that there aren't examples of that in black culture? You're not going to have to look very deeply to find exactly that and a lot of other pretty unacceptable prejudicial ideas. You think black culture is uniformly accepting of homosexuality?[/i]

I don't think any of these things are deeply embedded in black culture at a senior leader level, no. I think there may be *very* small groups in any cultural group that may hold unacceptable beliefs. What I don't think is that there is an institutionalised ethos of socially unacceptable ideals being indoctrinated to massive groups of largely impressionable people who have most often joined for help, guidance and support.

Mark doesn't like religion

Does that explain the seeming lack of rules on here about religious intolerance and anti religious ranting ?

YES! It's evolving into a racism debate!

Where's my popcorn.

What is intolerant about stating a fact in regard to an organisation who have at the highest levels (including the current pope), time and time again, been proven complicit in the systemic, organised and ongoing rape and abuse of children and the vulnerable all over the world. If criticising them makes me a bigot then so be it, I can live with myself.

Is this some sort of attempt to get the thread locked by goading/criticising the owners or something?

I have no idea what his religious beliefs are bit think they had little do with these threads or the frequency