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Late last year we had an extension built and work was completed to our satisfaction and builder paid in full in this spring.
However, now the bad weather has come, we have found that some of the custom-made oak window frames are leaking quite badly (enough to mean wringing out towels soaked with water). This only happens when it is windy and rain is forced through.
The builder came up once to fix them, took a look and proceeded to slap silicon sealant around the outside of the frame. He said he would come back when they had a chance to dry properly and removed the glass and reseat them correctly.
Unfortunately this only slowed the leaks, not stop them. He came back and, instead of doing what he said he would (remove the windows completely) he just took off the beading on the INSIDE of the frames and filled with aquarium sealant (so he says).
This was done very roughly with uneven filling and there is still the silicon on the outside. It combines to make it look really very messy (put it this way - I would have been unhappy if I had done it that badly).
I rang him yesterday and we had a heated exchange. I pointed out that he still hasn't done as he promised (he still hasn't removed the windows and fully resealed), I am also concerned that he has filled with something not fit for purpose (I have never heard of aquarium sealant being used in a domestic window situation) and that it looks messy and unprofessional.
He offered to (in his words) 'come back one last time and that's it'. I wouldn't accept this and said he has to come back until it is finished, doesn't leak and is of a standard we are happy with (ie, as good as it was when we signed it off).
So how can I deal with him to get what I expect? The only thing I can think of (seeing as he has been paid in full) is threats to inform HM Customs that he sometimes does jobs cash in hand...
HELP!
Is the water definately coming in around the edge?
To get them water-tight, can he not insert expanding foam (using the proper gun not the crap plastic nozzle sort) and then point the outside?
If I were you I would get another independent builder to check the work or perhaps someone from the planning office that way it will add more clout to your complaint, is the builder who originally did the work a member of a master builder federation or such like, as they would be a point of call to advise you how to proceed, also Trading Standards. I am having problem with water coming through my bay windows and it seems the builders used the wrong materials to loine our bay windows area, they tried it on by using sealent but it didnt work so I called an independant builder, I am due a visit from the builder today as it happens. Good Luck
I have no idea where it is coming in - that was his problem to solve. And I am not happy with quick-fixes - we spent lots of money on this and I want it to be right, not botched. He said he would reseat the windows yet hasn't done. To me, that is the only way they will be watertight - anything else is botching that I could have done.
second opinion from another builder/window person of repute. maybe even get them to do the remedial work and then small claims?
Write to him formally detailing the defect. Give him a reasonable time period in which to rectify the problem. State that if he does not recitfy the problem, you will arrange for another company to complete the work and then pass on his invoice. Obviously he may not really be arsed about it, but then you can resort to making a court claim against him.
Thats is easier than you may think and you can even do it on line.
The important thing though is to demonstrate that you have given him the chance to rectify the problem.
How easy is it to get money back via small claims if I was to go down that route?
If you don't want it to drag on, then do as doc_blues suggests. I have a work colleague who is doing a similar thing with a double glazing company at the moment. I would tell your builder in advance (in writing) what your intended course of action will be, including that you will recoup your additional costs through small claims court, giving him a date by which he has the chance to make good before you get someone else in. If you can provide an estimate of the remedial work you will have done and what work is required, so much the better.
Edit: Lowey has faster fingers 😉
Lowey + 1, I will not trust my builders to rectify the problem, seeing as the sub contracted the work out when they built the house I will want the builder who checked the work to do the job and get paid my the Original Builders, NHBC also involved. Did the work come with any written Gtee, if you do write to him send the letter by recorded delivery also I would find out where he is working at the moment and call and see him, he wont want the people he is working for finding out about his botch job he did on you.
You should establish if the builder manufactured the 'custom made frames' or just fitted them from a third party supplier.
The get an opinion as to whether the frames were incorrectly fitted or if there was a manufacturing or material defect.
You should establish if the builder manufactured the 'custom made frames' or just fitted them from a third party supplier.
He manufactured them himself.
To be honest by now I would have engaged someone else to come in and provide a written report and quote on what has been carried out correctly/ incorrectly and approach the original builderer and ask for their approach to rectify the faults.
Sounds like they're just making it all worse, you might as well find someone who'll actually do it properly and get it done so that you can enjoy looking out through the windows when it rains rather than running around with wet towels and winding yourself up.
Up until now we had been patient as the builder is the husband of my wife's work colleague so we had (wrongly) assumed he would behave responsibly and want to do a good job. And to be fair on him, until this problem appeared, he has *generally* (apart from flooding the house from the loft room down when doing the rads) been very good - so he has either lost interest now he has been paid in full or he just doesn't know how to repair it properly.
He is coming next week for his 'one last time' and I will serve the letter on him then - that I intend to have the work independently assessed and he will be liable for any additional costs I incur.
I've gone through something similar, check your houshold insurance for legal cover and see if you can use the "full court" as opposed to small claims.
I eventually went down the small claims route (and won). But the the guy has been quite cute and has nothing in his name, so I'm left with a piece of paper that basicly says he ows me £3000.
Contacted Trading Standards who said it was nothing to do with them and HM Customs who don'tt seem to have done anything as he's still advertising localy.
I could have his bank account arrested, but it will cost me each time, is only valid for the credit in his account on that day, and he must be left with £275 credit anyway - it's frustrating, and I doubt I'll ever see any of it.
If anyone knows where I can go to find a buisnessman with the principles of Peter van Hoogstaten in east central Scotland let me know - I'm beyond caring whether or not I recieve the money, I just want the **** to have to pay up.
Apologies for turning this into a bit of a personal rant !
He is coming next week for his 'one last time' and I will serve the letter on him then - that I intend to have the work independently assessed and he will be liable for any additional costs I incur.
I'd suggest waiting untill he's been,tell him as he leaves what you're going to do, then send a letter by recorded mail.
Cheers Taylor - might just do that. What a right-royal pain this is Grrr...
May be worth taking some detailed pics before and after his 'one last time' visit....
Be careful about what sealant has been used. It is my understanding that some sealants can cause the seal on the double glazing units to perish.
Yeah I did wonder about that - certainly getting concerned now...
I have no idea where it is coming in - that was his problem to solve.
You don't sound like a very helpful customer. Since it's [i][b]you[/b][/i] who lives in the house, why don't you try and see where the water is coming through since, quote, "this only happens when it is windy and rain is forced
through" ? and presumably this only happens in severe weather, as last winter you apparently had no problem at all.
And how are you going to be able to prove in the small claims court that's it's his fault, if you can't be arsed to check where the water is coming from ? .... he could argue that it's condensation from your tumble dryer, or the that you have a blocked rainwater pipe which is causing your window to be exposed to a constant stream of water which the window is not designed for.
Just a couple of notes : [i]"he just took off the beading on the INSIDE of the frames and filled with aquarium sealant"[/i] I would expect the loose beads to be on the inside, not on the outside of the window, so nothing strange about that. And I personally, wouldn't have a problem with 'aquarium sealant' although I would be very surprised if he had actually used it, as it would undoubtedly be vastly more expensive. If any has squelched beyond the beads it should be very easy to cut it off.
Whatever the problem is, I doubt whether it can't be easily rectified, specially as you managed for year without it being obvious. I suggest that you try to work with him to sort it out, rather than going down the road of issuing threats - perhaps offer to cover the costs of any extra materials which might be required. Good luck.
Hmm As a new window installer then he SHOULD have done them to comply with building regs, he SHOULD have registered them with the council himself (or else the council will have been out to inspect)
IIRC he SHOULD be FENSA registered and have provided you with a copy of the insurance policy for the work.
If he hasn't done any of these he's in the sh1t i think and the council can jump on him.
Now I MAY be way off the mark here, but ringing your local planning office will confirm the above. I have learnt a lot of this from having windows done and grilling the firm about the paperwork/guarantees etc
You don't sound like a very helpful customer.
If theres water coming in theres water coming in, whats the point in having windows otherwise, they are not supposed to leak at all.
How much more help do you have to be, hes already admitted to the problem by offering to come back to refit the windows.
Might not be of any use to you but this guy is very highly thought of.
http://www.derekwaller.co.uk/
>What a **** wit, if theres water coming in theres water coming in, whats the point in having windows otherwise, they are not supposed to leak at all.
Errrr, as Ernie pointed out it's taken approx a year to manifest itself and "This only happens when it is windy and rain is forced through."
Edit: Nice edit to flippinheckler's post by someone to remove the ranting words 🙂
How much more help do you have to be
Well saying [i]"that was his problem to solve"[/i] suggests that the OP wasn't exactly going out of his way to be helpful. As I said, I would try to work with him to sort it out, rather than going down the road of issuing threats. Specially as the customer was perfectly happy with the work for at least a year, and presumably the price too. I don't think trying to stitch him up, is the way forward. IMO.
Taylorplayer how about winding up his company? I believe it's not too difficult to do.
Get a hose pipe and spray it on the windows in stratefgic locations,and look for water ingress,or on a windynight hold a candle lit to the gaps around the window,be careful you dont set the curtains on fire though,as youll have no more problems with windows.
Taylorplayer how about winding up his company? I believe it's not too difficult to do.
Are you talking "practical joke" type wind up or are you suggesting that I somehow financialy wind up his company?
I know that he now has 2 vehicles that he didn't previously so intend to have the sheriff court officers go around (which will cost me) but if the vehicles are in his partner's name then they're not his vehicles.
Small claims isn't the definitive victory that many on here seem to think it is.
Did this builder do all the external work on the extension??
Are you sure that the water is coming in through the windows?
If you are getting sooo much water in that you can wring a towel out after a downpour you might find that the leak is coming in from somewhere other than the window. Could be that the water enters the the external facade above the window at the gutter or soffit for example, and travels down the wall cavity and then hits the window frame, that then sends the water in to the room. If the window is the problem then it is fairly easy to fix, good quality silicone will do the job very well. If the windows aren't the problem (as I find to be the case quite often), then it can be rather difficult and expensive to fix.
And how are you going to be able to prove in the small claims court that's it's his fault...
I think you'll find that the burden of proof is reversed in the small claims court, it's up to the defender to defend the case. Though I agree that trying to sort things amicably first is the best option. (In my case he simply refused to put things right and said "take me to court" - seems he knew what he was doing there !)
I have tried to explain to him where it is coming in - I was being rather flippant in that comment because I am just getting fed up. I have taken time off work to meet him and try to show him exaclty where it is coming in but he didn't turn up with no call. The extension was only finished earlier this year - this is the first winter and it started leaking when we got the first heavy rain with wind. He did all the work including gutters over etc.
The extension was only finished earlier this year - this is the first winter.
Ah right, I took [i]"Late last year we had an extension built and work was completed to our satisfaction "[/i]
as meaning "late last year" 😉
I would try project's suggestion of a hose directly onto the windows, maybe whilst the builder is there. If it [i]is[/i] the windows, I can't imagine it would take much to remedy - I take it they have an even but not excessive gap all round and the aren't bowed or twisted. You said that the silicon sealant around the outside of the frame slowed down the water ingress, looks like that is where the problem is then - perhaps suggest that a more substantial attempt is made to seal them round the frames.
It's up to you, but personally, I would offer pay him for any extra time he spends on them. After all I assume you just want the problem sorted, and am guessing that you've paid quite a bit for your 'custom-made oak window frames' so another 2 or 3 hours labour costs is hardly going to make a huge difference to the total cost. And it's got to be a lot easier than going to the small claims court, involving third parties, etc.
Yes - started late last year, completed this spring when we paid him . Not happy about paying him more though - he wasn't able to make them water tight when installing them and being paid to do so - I don't see why paying him again will get any better a result.
I don't see why paying him again will get any better a result.
Not paying him [i]again[/i] - just offering to cover him for a couple of hours to sort out an unforeseen problem. And yes, you're likely to to get better results as it's a fact of human nature, that people find it hard to find the motivation to do something which they have already been paid for - strange but true.
Of course it's just a suggestion, if you feel happier with 'serving a letter on him - that you intend to have the work independently assessed and he will be liable for any additional costs you incur', then do that.
But whilst it's impossible for me to make a valid judgement on work I can't see, I get the impression that this geezer is no idiot. Although you talk about him manufacturing custom-made oak 'window frames' I'm guessing you mean that he also made the sashes. If he's up to making oak sashes, then he knows his stuff imo. Whatever the problem is, I suspect it's very likely that there is a reasonable explanation - as he doesn't sound like a "Botchit and Leggit" outfit. I would try to keep him sweet, you might find him useful again in the future - geezers who can make oak joinery aren't two a penny you know. Of course I could be wrong about him - but you appear to have been happy about his work until now.
I would say Ernie is right - co operation will get you better results than confrontation.
Your chances in a small claims court are low I would have thought.
How much is the stress worth it to you? It will cost you money to go down the court route - surely you will need and independent report on what the damage is and so forth.
This is one of the reasons I try to avoid using anyone to do work on my house. It seems that messing up the install is seen as part of the job by the builder concerned. Why should you pay him to correct something that should have been completed correctly in the first place? Good luck, but I think this will be a nightware to resolve.
I honestly don't believe what I am hearing from TandemJerry and ernie_lynch!
If you had a hand-built bike made and, say, the wheels were out of true so you take the bike bike and the builder has another attempt at repairing them but botches it rather than doing what you say. You are not happy still so you call them and arrange to take it back in, inconveniencing yourself, but he isn't there. When he finally gets it, rather than starting from scratch and rebuilding, he just attempts another botch leaving them out of true - would you then offer to pay him more money to put it right or demand that he builds the wheels to the standard you would expect?
And here is a picture of a *small ecxample* of the problem (three windows, each approx 4ft x 1.5ft) all at a similar standard.
[img] 
[/img]
Has he just masticked around the gasket?
That looks bloody awful.
I know! But apparently, according to some on here, I should pay him to do it correctly!!!! :-O
Is that cill flat?
Yes it is - I think it is just distortion from the camera and the grain of the wood conspiring.
I was not saying pay him again - but that co operation will get you further than confrontation.
work was completed [i]to our satisfaction[/i] and builder paid in full in this spring.
You have no hold over him - you have paid as satisfied on a completed contract.
He offered to (in his words) 'come back one last time and that's it'
You don't know where the water is coming in. You are talking about going down the legal route when he has already agreed to come back to sort it
Did you specify the windows and their appearance - particularly the profile of them?
I was not saying pay him again
Fair enough but it has been suggested. And we have tried to settle without confrontation as he has been back twice to try to fix them (as per the picture above). It became confrontational only when he stipulated he would only come back one more time which I do not think is acceptable - as far as I am concerned he should come back until they ARE finished to a professional standard and we are satisfied they do not leak.
You are talking about going down the legal route
No I was asking how I should approach this - other people mentioned legal route and I have listened to their suggestions just like the other ones. It is called dialogue.
you have paid as satisfied on a completed contract.
So you think there is no obligation for someone to make something fit for purpose? I could go back to the out of true wheel scenario again....
Did you specify the windows and their appearance - particularly the profile of them?
We discussed what sort of appearance we would like, he produced a small mock-up of what he recommended would work, we agreed that we liked it.
jayzeus, that workmanship is sh*te. Can see why you're not happy.