Appreciate this is for motorbikes, but it's relevant nonetheless
I upgraded my motorbike and immediately felt like I didn't have enough confidence or ability to use it properly on the road. I decided to do something about it and signed up for my IAM. My local group wasn't too bad and my observer was excellent. Normal bloke, interesting motorcycling background and someone who wanted to have fun. Long story short I passed my test and get good insurance premiums (relatively), but I'm also more confident and capable. i can read the road better, I feel like I have more time, I learnt the importance of good vision etc. That was 8 years ago
Most of the skills transfer into driving or cycling, but it was definitely worth it. Wasn't particularly expensive either.
Being a better driver just means slowing down and paying attention.
Please don't encourage the grey hair brigade to drive any slower than they already do.
Footnote: it's fashionable to deride older folk but there are a couple of things the deriders need to bear in mind:
1 - Older folk are wiser.
2 - As you age you slow down, it's Nature's way of protecting you from deteriorating senses and mobility.
3 - You will be old one day.
4 - older folk have fewer accidents, which is why insurance premiums are lower.
word
larry lamb - the speed limit is a guide not a target.
Yes I am one of those grey haired brigade who drive to the speed limit.
As a person who doesn't think they're a good driver, I asked an IAM instructor about having someone sit in with me (I think its about £45). He said it's usually the people who think they aren't that good on the roads who are better drivers than then one's who think they are. His advice to me was always keep a good distance (the 2 second gap), which luckily I do.
5 - The figures for the number of accidents in older people are obscured as the number of licence holders to those still driving doesn’t show the actual figures.
6 - We’re derailing.
So, who is going to admit to any driving faults?
(One of) mine is taking familiar bends too quickly. I do catch myself doing it and give myself a stern reminder sometimes.
I’m perfect.
Being a good driver is nothing to do with the actual mechanics of driving the car. It’s all to do with making good decisions. I did a few sessions with IAM a few years ago, never followed it through but their instruction was 100% about continual risk analysis and decision making. Sure he option was there to go on skid pans and things like that, but the emphasis was definately on making better decisions.
any course that focuses on the mechanics of driving the car, especially fast, is nothing to do with being a better driver on the roads.
i’m all For people tak Ng drivingbcourses. Passing your test at 17 then receiving zero further tuition or learning for the rest of your life is bonkers.
taking familiar bends too quickly
Me too. I love it.
Was about to mention Reg Local too - check out the advanced driving forum on Pistonheads - he hangs out there a fair bit.
taking familiar bends too quickly
Me too. I love it.
I love it until I realise I'm going faster than the distance I can see to stop in 😉
In Germany where they keep records for all age groups seniors over 75 are the most dangerous people on the road, more dangerous than even young drivers. They cause three out of four accidents they are invovled in . Half the people driving the wrong way down a road are over 65. So when older people voluntarily slow down as an adaption to their diminished faculties I see it as a good thing.
Nach Angaben des Gesamtverbandes der Versicherer (GDV) verursachen Senioren über 75 schon heute drei von vier Unfällen, in die sie verwickelt sind. „Die Quote liegt damit höher als in der Hochrisikogruppe der jungen Fahrer“, sagte GDV-Unfallforscher Siegfried Brockmann.
So when older people voluntarily slow down as an adaption to their diminished faculties I see it as a good thing.
When older people voluntarily slow down as an adaption to their diminished faculties I see it as a good indicator that they should be taking the bus.
And those not living on a bus route and for whom taxis are prohibitvely expensive, Cougar? When they're still quite capable of driving but at slower speeds. How old are your parents? Are you going to tell them to stop driving when they start being more cautious and slow down, or when they don't seem to be comfortable at 60 on a winding B road because some on here hate people not doing the national speed limit - read back and check out previous threads.
It was, as you say, about maintaining a high (legal) pace through smooth driving, observation, car position and handling. It has stuck with me.
That puts it far better than I did, as well as the constant risk assessment mentioned above. FTR he also did skid pan training.
Took some advanced lessons years ago after passing my bike test. Read the Advanced driving book also.
Maximum progression surprised me.I expected to be driving slooooowwwwwly
Using vanishing points transformed my driving experience.
Mantra on the bike (and car) fast, but safe
Finally someone is being honest about the objective, doggy cam.
It only works until it doesn't work and then you're going faster.
People have accused me of never going on a course, well I did, right at the start of when I started driving.
Of not knowing what it's about, well I had a copy of that 1935 book referred toand read cover to cover.
I'l just cover one point in the training - predicting where the road is going to go. They give all sorts of stuff that give clues about where the road goes. The barmiest was telegraph lines, do you really trust telegraph lines to always folllow the road? No
Without a co-driver I know I'd have been lulled off the road on numerous occasions by firebreaks, electricity cable cuttings, telegraph cables, the road suddenly changing from following the contour to diving downhill... . if you use indicators beyond the road you can see to drive faster sooner or later you'll yourself going too fast in the wrong place at the wrong time.
Even with a co-driver you can get caught, we had to use OS maps in the forests back in the day, no pace notes (small errors in pace notes is another story). On one occasion my co-driver called a "flar right maybe" on a very fast section in Dyfi. I lifted a tad thankfully and floated through feeling very uncomforatble - there were already four cars off the road and one dead driver. It was hardly noticeable on the map and tighter than it looked from reading the road and the lie of the land.
"Mantra on the bike (and car) fast, but safe"
These two things are mutually exclusive most of the time. Motorway and dual carriageway fair enough - you can see for miles so can hoon it at silly speeds safely if the motorway is empty and weather good, but if you're talking about vanishing points then you're talking about blind bends, therefore more country B road driving so you're making progress 'quickly but safely', watching that vanishing point enabling you to take a bend even more quickly, then all of a sudden you're on top of a cyclist/horse/pedestrian/sheep in the road, at the same time there is an oncoming car so no option to avoid.
Not so much fast but safe, more like fast and lucky....so far.
Car handling skills are pointless and are the sort of thing that makes people overconfident....the whole point is not to get into a situation where you're dealing with a skid or reacting to an unexpected situation. You've failed long before that point.
I love driving fast as much as anyone, but roads today are much busier than they used to be, the days of having fun on public roads is over. We have the safest roads in the world, but even we have hit a limit with about 3500 deaths a year (or whatever it is now) on the roads and we've failed to make headway into that over the last 10 years or so after a steady decline before that. People insisting on 'making progress' in pursuit of a few giggles and an adrenaline buzz are the problem. just do everyone a favour and get a track day car and look for your fun off public roads. If you really want to prove your machoness behind the wheel then put your money where your mouth is and go racing and pit your driving skills up against others.
I’l just cover one point in the training – predicting where the road is going to go. They give all sorts of stuff that give clues about where the road goes. The barmiest was telegraph lines, do you really trust telegraph lines to always folllow the road? No
In my first advanced course, 25 years ago, we were specifically taught don’t trust telegraph poles as they go off piste. You want to get your money back for your course Ed 😉
Same here read the road not the surroundings as they can’t be trusted. I was also taught the vanishing point is one thing that you use to assess your speed if it’s long you can go faster if it’s short you adjust your speed. The vanishing point is also progressive not speeding hurtling up to one point to another. Either some of you didn’t listen or were taught really badly. I’m also not sure what rally driving has to with it.
"‘quickly but safely’, watching that vanishing point enabling you to take a bend even more quickly, then all of a sudden you’re on top of a cyclist/horse/pedestrian/sheep in the road, at the same time there is an oncoming car so no option to avoid."
I think that misunderstandings are the issue. The limit point is not about enabling you to take a bend even more quickly, it's about being able to stop in the distance that you can see to be clear
Telegraph poles and other cues give a clue, but they're not necessarily acted upon because they cross roads to properties, which can be misleading when they appear to follow a straight course when they're actually crossing the road on a sharp bend. You should take all available information and not one detail
Car handling skills are not pointless because taught properly, off-road, they'll teach you just how quickly you can cross the line between safe and unsafe, and how to act when electronic stability programmes, ABS, etc activate
"the whole point is not to get into a situation where you’re dealing with a skid or reacting to an unexpected situation. You’ve failed long before that point."
I couldn't agree more
Someone really doesn't understand vanishing points....
Unexpected situations happen. Knowing how to deal with them helps. As an example - an animal suddenly crossing the road.
I don't use vanishing points to drive faster, I use them to drive safer and smoother.
I have said in another thread, people who speed excessively are usually idiots.
I took it off road, rallying, circuit racing and then racing motorbikes.
Proves nothing speeding on open roads, definitely not what a good driver you are
The principles of Roadcraft apply very well to non-response (blue light) driving. Although the 'system' of car control under roadcraft is a complete ballache to master, once it 'clicks', it works very well. Even if the 'system' isn't fully mastered, most drivers would benefit from exposure to some aspects of Roadcraft.
Better positioning, observation and anticipation of what may occur allows the driver to plan their own journey far better. Simple things like leaving a decent gap and looking much further ahead across bends / junctions means you are already reacting to things long before the people around you have even noticed them. Often, you can maintain a higher average speed and save fuel by anticipating queues, gaps at roundabouts or when lights will change. Most folk drive up to things too quickly, slow down quite abruptly and look late. Advanced driving simply isn't about booting it everywhere or catching oversteer.
In regard to IAM / RoSPA, I ran a police driving school for a few years and had to liaise with both, mostly arranging visits. Yeah, they're a bit earnest / geeky and obviously can't do response / pursuit / high speed work but they largely know their Roadcraft and could help most drivers raise their game. Many IAM / RoSPA examiners are advanced police drivers with a wealth of knowledge far beyond application of the system of car control.
Would recommend either organisation. There's now't to lose and much to learn.
Exceedingly well put Downshep.