My oldest son is due to start primary school later this year. We live in one of the rougher parts of edinburgh and our ctachment school is the worst in the city according to the relevant reports. We have tried to get him into other english language schools outside of the catchment but have as yet been unsuccessful. One option that we do have is to send him to a gaelic medium school that will immerse him in gaelic to teach him the language and also give him his lessons in gaelic. This school is designed to take both gaelic and non-gaelic speakers through their primary education - this school has a very good reputation. It also feeds into a far better secondary school than the local english speaking one. Neither me or the wife speak gaelic, but would be happy to learn to if it helped the boy.
What would you do?
English school + move house
Can't see Gaelic itself being much use, but a bilingual education is great for learning other languages later in life. My kids (English / Spanish) are noticeably better than others in their class at picking up a third language (they're learning Chinese...), and my sister's experience (English / Italian / French speaking kids) seems to back that up.
My vote for Gaelic, then.
Moving house is not an option, nor is independent school at this point in time.
Visit the schools, the reports can only tell you so much. Do you read to him every day, and fill the time with doing thing together, books everywhere. That will make a massively bigger difference than a primary school. Secondary different, can't compensate for a bad one with home activities.
I have visited both schools - it was like night and day. The purpose of this thread is to convince the wife.
Are there no Bantu schools near you then?
The only thing to concern you is the backgrounds of the majority of kids who go to a school. I'm guessing you don't want him drawn into the murkier side of society.
Go with the better school, if you're living in an English speaking country (albeit Scotland 🙂 ) he won't suffer compared to his peers.
I know folk who move house to make sure they get kids into GM school. Smaller class size, loads of money thrown at them for resources in the name of Gaelic, *generalisation - parents who give a crap about their kids/generalisation*.
More chances for music and art often aswell. English education doesn't suffer at all.
Go Gaelic in anticipation of secondary. It'll give him another free TV channel too.
I'd send him to the gaelic school, might not be relevant to yourself, as i don't know your family history but I wish my granny had taught me irish while i had the chance. Being bilingual should also make it easier to learn up other languages also i'd imagine. not a bad thing in todays multicultural world.
plus you seem to have the option of a school with a cracking reputation against an average one.. bit of a no brainer surely?
better gaelic school without hesitation. You can ignor eth elanguage medium tbh.
You can teach him English yourself - it would be difficult for them to not grow up proficient in its use given where they live and what language you speak, tv , books etc.
The language issue is not important the quality of the education is.
I assume the secondary school will be English speaking so i dont really see what harm it can do. If it does any harm it will be far less than being educated in a piss poor school where learning is not valued,their mates are chavs and the results are crap
that siad you also need to look at added value not result sper se and also the relevant OFSTED reports [ do they use them In Scotland?]
League tables are not that great IMHO hence added valueone is a better measure.
I can see why your wife is concerned about the language medium - are all lesson in Gaelic?- but the quality of the education should be the deiciding factor not the medium of the education.
I'm a fluent gaelic speaker. It has done me no harm at all.
The relevant reports can be a load of tosh - the intake can restrict or inflate the scores on tests regardless of how good or bad the school and teaching is. You have to visit the schools to make your own mind up, it's not just about the test results.
My son's been at a Welsh language school for about a year now. He's picked Welsh up very quickly though both the wife and I don't (or didn't speak) a word of it. The advantage was the class size: teacher ratio - in England the school he would have gone to had a one teacher plus assistant for 30 kids - in Wales he has one teacher plus 5 assistants for the same size class. If we moved back to England he'd definatley be behind compared to the other kids but at primary level I'm not really worried about that.
magowen100 - did he go a welsh speaking nursery?
Gaelic every time. The language itself is of medium use, but there are tons and tons of studies that suggest bilingual kids do better in everything.
The quetion is, how can learning another language not be good?
Actually - there is one way. Your kid and his friends/other siblings can give you lip and you won't understand 🙂
As for his English skills - well it's odds on that all the kids there will speak fine English anyway. So English lessons will be much more than 'My name is..' etc.
In Welsh medium schools IIRC they do English and Welsh both as first languages which is a bit of a cheat. My mate Arwel certainly did to avoid having to take French or German, but that was in a very Welsh area where lots of people were native speakers.
Will he remain in the catchment area for the secondary school, i.e. is it a guaranteed place if he attends one of the cluster primary schools?
I presume this is Tollcross/Boroughmuir you are considering?
move house
I love how people suggest that as if it's as easy as chnging your shoes.
I'm a fluent gaelic speaker. It has done me no harm at all.
edit that bit out in case she lurks here 😉
Tollcross it is. Secondary school is James Gillespie's which also has a Gaelic side to it which takes all Gaelic pupils within the city, so yes it is a guaranteed place.
Ah, even better than Boroughmuir then. What is your local secondary like by comparison?
However, I'd go with Tollcross on the basis of Gillespie's alone.
Go Gaelic. Children who've had a bilingual education tend to do better generally, for a variety of reasons.
Prof Colin Baker has done a great deal of research on this: http://www.bilingualism.bangor.ac.uk/people/colin_baker.php.en
Good luck!
Local secondary school is Craigroyston....
Think I have persuaded the wife that there is nothing to be lost by sending him to the Gaelic school, but that there is a hell of a lot to gain.
SBZ - he went to an english speaking one (in England). When we moved he had no prior exposure to welsh. He did start at school earlier than he would have done in england but he's only been taught in Welsh for the last year and a half. It does lead to some comedy moments when I think he's making up words (when you realise that five in welsh is pump, pronounced pimp, it suddenly makes the joke about what do you call a welshman with five sheep appear to have a new depth). It also is quite anazimg to see a four year old sing Sosban Fach at the top of his voice when I don't know a word of it.
Molgrips - in my local Welsh school english is the second language up to the age of five, so they are only taught in Welsh (even though 90% of the kids speak no welsh when they start). After five years old there is then the choice to go english or welsh streams.
The only downside I can see is if we moved back to England BUT I'm happy to pay for extra tuition if he needs it in order for him to have a second language.
I'd vote Gaelic. As an English speaking New Zealander who wanted to do Maori at school, but was prevented because of "timetabling issues with the top stream classes yeah right" I really wish I had stuck to my guns, it would be so useful in NZ now.
Fast forward to Scotland and I have recently done a LOT of work on my organisation's Gaelic Language Plan (as mandated under the Gaelic Language Act 2005). You will be seeing a lot more Gaelic in the future, especially with last nights result.
Being bi-lingual in any language has to be a good thing. However I believe Tollcross primary has some funding issues that you might care to research. Edinburgh Council allocated funds to extend the school then went back on it, or something along those lines those aren't actual facts.
Having done some of my teacher training at craigroyston, I'd Rex omens doing anything you can to get your kids to another school. Not a pleasant place at all.
My Gaelic teacher colleague reckons the kids with Gaelic speaking (or learning) parents do much better in Gaelic medium, so it should be worth you getting some lessons too.
I went to a Welsh primary school (North wales, not the english speeking South Wales, whole different ball game), before starting I probably knew enough to translate road signs. Got well above average scores in SAT's etc in year 6.
Moved to England just before starting Secondary School (Moved on 3rd September IIRC) and was definately not at a dissadvantage, the only problem was knowing the answer to questions in welsh but not English and having to translate my SAT papers and School Reports as none of the teachers could read them! And no I didn't embelish them!
The extra language is usefull if you keep it up, I can no longer speek Welsh, I can probably speek french better as that was taught rather than learnt if that makes sense? Within a year of moving to England speeking Welsh was almost impossible.
Neither of my parents spoke or speek Welsh.
Gaelic medium. The brightest kids at my daughters secondary school are the Gaelic kids.
If I was back home that would be a really interesting option, I understand the concern about doing something like sending your kids to a non-english speaking school however.
As with the rest, I totally say "go for it!", and not just because better school (although that is monsterously important!).
Our point of view is from living as an ex-pat in CH, and the experiences that our children and firneds/neighbours children have.
Agree, bilingual does mostly only good. It can be little tough for them at the begining, but here the problem is that they can be isolated in the playground until they pick up the lingo (also a cultural thing), but I guess that won't be a problem for yours in Em-bruh.
Also, we find there is a wee mental re-adjustment period as the kids brain re-aligns itself (warning, pseudo science!) to think and act in 2 languages that can outwardly appear that they are struggling, but they get over it really fast (6 months) and then... whoooosh! They do great.
As a scot, I would be thrilled to bits to have my kids be able to speak Gaelic, and me too for that matter!
FWIW, thorugh in another language in a couple of years (e.g. French), you'll be amazed how easy it is for them.
Kev
TINAS - its good to hear a move back didn't affect you too much, as I've said its my only concern with son at a Welsh speaking school.
I do think you're right though the language has to be sustained either at school or at home otherwise it'll be lost. Out of interest when you say you can no longer speak welsh can you still understand it? i.e. not speaking it yourself is different to not understanding it being spoken (hope that makes sense)
not the english speeking South [b]EAST[/b] Wales
FTFY 🙂
I also have another friend whose parents moved from somwhere in the Home Counties to remote Mid Wales - near Tregaron. So she has the comedy value of speaking English with a very southern accent but also fluent Welsh. She kept up her Welsh very well by having local friends who were native speakers, and now she is a GP in.. somewhere the other side of Carmarthen. Near Brechfa I expect 🙂 Where Welsh comes in handy talking to doddery old locals.
Big Eck will soon have banned all things English in his bid for freeeedom so they'll have a head start 😆
Another vote for Gaelic from the bilingual point of view. Apparently if you can learn a second language while young it makes it dramatically easier to learn other languages later and that has to be useful now. The downside is you may need to learn it as well if you want to be able to help or even correct homework. Has to be cool as well
I have a question. Is Gaelic seen as a pan-Scottish thing or simply a Northern/Western thing? Seems odd to find Gaelic medium schools in Edinburgh which is not historically a Gaelic area..?
Something to consider, if he goes to the Gaelic language school it sounds as if that will be quite a distance from where you live and also his mates? it make him a bit of an outsider and as wee kids can ,not saying that they all are, bit it might make him a target or not quite as friendly as the rest of the local kids. That might not be an issue to you, my friend has kids at the school, but they live in the sticks so not an issue for them.
All of the points made about language skills would be a great advantage.
I have a question. Is Gaelic seen as a pan-Scottish thing or simply a Northern/Western thing?
From an outsiders point of view I'd say it was pretty much a northern/western thing. The only people I know who speak it are from the far north and islands, and they never use it but it makes for interesting pub discussion.
do think you're right though the language has to be sustained either at school or at home otherwise it'll be lost. Out of interest when you say you can no longer speak welsh can you still understand it? i.e. not speaking it yourself is different to not understanding it being spoken (hope that makes sense)
I can read a book slowly as I know enough to get the gist of a scentance and fill in the gaps, listening to Welsh you'd have to be speekeing really slowly and saying something simple! Whereas French which I've not done since GCSE I could probably have a short conversation in, different wasys of learning I guess because at one point I could speek/read/write better Welsh than English and regulalry got 'confused' as to what I was reading e.g. Q: "Was the book in Welsh or english?" A:"No idea, I'd ahve to read it again and check". And I could do stuff like read a Welsh book to my parents in English, i.e. translate it as quick/quicker than I was reading it.
not the english speeking South EAST WalesFTFY
The north west is something like 66% of households speek Welsh, and IIRC the only place outside Patagonia where Welsh is spoken as an only language. South West is full of 2nd home owners, South East is basicaly england. The Valley's are very 'Welsh' I'll grant you but even friends from there don't believe that people up north don't/can't speek English.
I'm not a big fan of state funded gaelic medium education in parts of Scotland which weren't traditionally gaelic speaking. As a parent however I'd certainly consider making use of it if it was likely to give my kid a better education experience.
My mate was from Llanelli. His family and all his mates were Welsh only unless they were talking to us. Likewise my other mate from Aberaeron. Neither of which is in North Wales last time I looked 🙂
Did you come across people who couldn't speak English then? I met a fair few who sounded fairly foreign in it, but were still fluent enough. Perhaps I should say adults - I have read several reports from people who only learned English at school.
As an alternative, have you already looked at Davidsons Mains PS? Good school, good high school though there's not automatic entry to the high school if you are out of catchment area I think. However as far as I know most get in. There's already chilldren from Craigroyston and Drylaw that go to D Mains.
Tried there - 30 odd people on waiting list.
Aren't they all a bit odd in that area?
The natives have 6 webbed fingers and toes right enough.
FWIW, we considered sending our daughter to Tollcross. That was my primary (Boroughmiur was my secondary), my folks were living just around the corner and my wife is a native gaelic speaker. One of the reasons we didn't is that we wanted my daughter to fit in with all the local kids and being at Tollcross would make her "different" and a stranger to many. To be fair, this is more of an issue as they get older.
IGNORE THE GAELIC NAYSAYERS!
I don't care how 'useful' a language is, or how politically charged it can be. The fact is, being multi-lingual is always useful. It is true that Gaelic may not be hugely numerically-relevant in modern Scotland, but it will undoubtedly be advantageous in future years; and regardless, it is still an Indo-European language, and can be a springboard into other languages ranging geographically from the Indian subcontinent to Northwestern Europe.
The confidence, the multicultural exposure, and the additional psychological benefits to be had from learning in another language are beyond imagining.
Please do your oldest child a favour and enrol him in the Gaelic school.
I'm not entirely sure that I want my kids mixing with the kids round here if I'm brutally honest. Think it would be way to easy for my boys to head off down the wrong path, plus we dont intend to spend a whole lot of years here.
Did you come across people who couldn't speak English then? I met a fair few who sounded fairly foreign in it, but were still fluent enough. Perhaps I should say adults - I have read several reports from people who only learned English at school.
Loads of kids at school had to learn English as their second langage as the parents didn't speek any. And if you went shopping it was safer to start a conversation in Welsh to avoid the blank expression of a shopkeeper who doesn't speek English. So I'd say 5-10%of the population didn't speek any English, and everyone spoke Welsh in conversation with the exception of (for want of a better word) ex-pats.
In that case, I'd consider that moving house and keeping your kids at the same school would be an advantage (assuming any further move would still be within Edinburgh). Remember to consider the hassle of getting them to/from school every day.
This is a good one, so I'll jump in.
Gaelic school, and maintain your heritage if it is your heritage, no braier.
I think it is a no brainer! what is it abotu the Gaelic speaking bit that is holding your wife back. If you had both schools English speaking and had a choice you would choose the better school? Why is it different that they speak Gaelic? I studied bilingualism and child language acquisition at university. It isn't a problem you and the wife not speaking Gaelic, s/he will go through a period of not speaking either language very well and there will be a period of time where their linguistic development will be behind but that is because the brain is struggling with the 2 languages, grammar building, etc however they'll hti about 7 and be fluent in 2 languages, way ahead of their peers.
being able to speak more than 1 language is hugely advantageous (not matter what the 2nd language is) and will make it easier to learn additional languages. That has all been proven in studies.
I wouldn't worry about kids being "ousted" as they go to an "odd school" kids will always find something to bully/pick on with other kids and if this is all they can find then you'll be fine.
I didn't go to a Welsh secondary school and forgot my Welsh I do wish my parents had further pushed it as kids. I ALWAYs get asked "Can you speak Welsh?", "Can you say xxx?" and I wish I could. I also always wanted to get into the media, editing on TV, camera work etc but it's a crazy business. If I spoke Welsh I could've easily got onto S4C always desperate for Welsh speakers!! See advantages.
No brainer .. Gaelic school.
Different oddities for different areas i'd say. Up bruntsfield way it's all a bit posh-mad-bizarre, dmains a bit like that village in hot fuzz, craigroyston a bit mad (all from my point of view of course, being a bit scummy myself).
SaxonRider - Member
IGNORE THE GAELIC NAYSAYERS!
Can't say I've seen many "Gaelic Naysayers" - there's a fair few who rightly (IMO) point out that it's not a particuarly useful language*, but most of us on the thread seem to agree that bilingual education is a Good Thing.
* Not useful: small country, small population, no use outside of said small country. Even French is more use!
If you want any actual verifiable facts on Gaelic use check the Registers of Scotland website, there are some stats from the 2001 census. From memory 1.2% of the population of Scotland are Gaelic speakers. There will be some more facts when the 2011 census reports, it is widely anticpated that figure will be significantly higher.
Like most aspects of history, especially when politics favor differing views over time, there is much contradictory opinion on the extent to which Gaelic was spoken in Scotland. V interesting stuff (to a neutral outsider - me)
The opinions and views on this thread have convinced her that it is a good idea to send him to the gaelic shcool.
Thank you people.
my grand daughter was at the bun sgoil in tollcross and my grandson is currently there at nursery if you want to chat to some parents from there let me know
oh and they get a bus to pick them up and take them home
For those interested in Canada, it is worth noting that there is a number of [url= http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadian_Gaelic ]Gaelic speakers in Nova Scotia[/url], especially on [url= http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cape_Breton_Island ]Cape Breton Island[/url], and that one of them is [url= http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natalie_MacMaster ]Natalie MacMaster[/url], on whom I had a crush many years ago. 😀
How are we pronouncing this particular "Gaelic" anyway?
Gay-lic (steady) or Gallick?
Good job one and all - rarely you get an almost unanimous agreement on here.
DD - it's like Gallick, but the people who speak it are called Gaels (gales).
Surely Gallic is a different word to Gaelic?
Gallic meaning essentially French, non?
[i] It is true that Gaelic may not be hugely numerically-relevant in modern Scotland, but it will undoubtedly be advantageous in future years[/i]
I've read some bollocks in my time on this forum, but this probably takes the biscuit!
@b r
I'm sure parents were saying the same thing in Wales a few years ago. Now try to get work with the government if you don't know Welsh.
[i] Now try to get work with the government if you don't know Welsh. [/i]
And they'd be next in the firing line.
These self-important people need to get a grip, stop playing politics and spend the money on giving our kids a GOOD education.
And the rest of the world is focused on teaching their kids English.
Ok, so that's the boy starting gaelic nursery from tomorrow. I should probably learn gaelic myself now - any suggestions on a starting place?
And the rest of the world is focused on teaching their kids English.
Yep, but ours already speak English.. soo.....?
SbZ - try Scotland 🙂 Sorry, I can't really help but if it's anything like the situation in Wales there'll be tons of material and classes and so on, some free some not.
Good job one and all - rarely you get an almost unanimous agreement on here.
This must be the calm before the storm.
Gaelic school, and maintain your heritage if it is your heritage, no braier.
Not sure how much Gaelic has ever been spoken in Edinburgh / Central Belt TBH.
GM schools seem to better funded so why not take advantage of it though.
Just make sure they stay up to speed with their reading and writing in English too.
My nephew went to a gealic primary school in invercldye and they got free after school childcare as an incentive to go.
This was about 5 years ago so not sure about if they still do it.
It might be one of things that is available but not advertised, so might be an idea to ask.
As a recently discovered rascist bastard who despises the scots/welsh with passion I would say go with the gaelic school. Know your enemy.
DD - it's like Gallick, but the people who speak it are called Gaels (gales).
****in' pronunciation of that language has been properly bolloxed up by people who know bugger all about it. I suppose it's because it very nearly died out before a bunch of patriotic heritage miners decided to resurrect it.
Not sure how much Gaelic has ever been spoken in Edinburgh / Central Belt TBH.
Its def more of a western isles thing these days. Its hilarious/tragic that the scottish government is spending millions changing the road signs in areas that have no gaelic heritage to ones with gaelic translations of names that never had any gaelic origin. Bloody politicians.
It doesn't matter how I say Gaelic, with my limited selection of antipodean vowels there are still some people around who think I am in charge of warding off vampires. Now that's a job title I could be getting on with.
Resurrecting an ancient thread here, but any update on your findings SBZ?
We're in exactly the same situation ourselves, and are applying to the Gaelic medium in order to get away from crap local school - how do you feel you've got on?
Dazzlingboy - he's getting on brilliantly. Very glad that we made the decision to send them there. There is a nice wee community feel to the whole thing and the staff and parents are all well motivated and friendly.
If it's Edinburgh you're in then come 2013 the gaelic side is moving to it's own stand alone unit at Bonnington primary.
Feel free to email me with any questions you may have.
May well do that - thanks. Going along tomorrow morning to check it out. Slightly nervous about the "parents (us) don't speak a word of Gaelic" side of things but I'm told that's not a problem - would you agree?
Feel free to email me with any questions you may have.
Does this include questions on wether or not there's an Afterlife?
dazzlingboy - we dont speak gaelic and it's not causing a problem. Very few of the parents do speak gaelic to be honest.
Grandaughter tandemwarrior is in the local Gaelic school and loves it. We're over on the West (Dunoon) where there is a bit more evidence of the language, ie most roadsigns are bilingual and the Royal National Mod is here again next year.
While mum & dad aren't doing any Gaelic, Mrs tandemwarriors is doing two night classes to support her. One is run by the same teacher from the primary school, the other by the local college. We can apply to get funding to pay for a course. There's even full immersion courses available at the Gaelic University on Skye.
Rob