MegaSack DRAW - 6pm Christmas Eve - LIVE on our YouTube Channel
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Just you & me then!
A friend or that up on Facebook. Really really good picture
When's that "like" button coming?
I'm reminded every day. RIP Pilot Officer OLH Hills.
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Good image. I haven't seen it before, but I shall be showing it around.
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And then you get the Irony of people sharing Britain First remembrance photos on FB.. Im sure the 60 million people who died fighting right wing fascism and oppression in WW2 would be horrified to see people blighting their memory with a remembrance poppy picture from Britain First.. IMO its like turning up at a remembrance service and pissing on the poppies.
When's that "like" button coming?
and I'd press a "woefully inadequate but heartfelt gratitude and respect" button too.
I was in Toolsatation at 11am when the chimes came over the radio. I stood and stared at the catalogue, motionless, thinking about fine, brave men that died and are still dying. The thought of it still chokes me up a bit.
For me today was when The Coldstream Guards lead the parade in with this tune blasting and drums beating loud, then the faded into silence. It remained silent for the full 3 minutes despite being near the town centre.
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Attended the parade at our rather impressive village memorial - both of our kids were parading with the Brownies and Scouts. Big turn out for a smallish village, a lot wearing medals, though my dad swears he doesn't know where his medals are. LittleMissMC got to plant one of the crosses on behalf of the Brownies. Immaculately observed silence. Always very moving. A couple of years ago my lad got to the read the "at the going down of the sun..." passage, and I was in bits, partly with pride and partly just with the emotion of the day.
Then spent a busy 2 hours in the village hall washing up from the post service refreshments, something some friends started a couple of years ago, and we raised £100 for the Royal British Legion. Got talking to a visitor who was there as they had researched her husbands family tree, he had two great uncles named on our war memorial, one in each war.
Interestingly, this year the service was taken by our temporary acting vicar, who is German. Seemed slightly incongruous but also very appropriate in some ways to hear the service in her German accent. It wasn't just our boys who have suffered in the last 100 years.
As an aside, one of the villagers killed in WWI is apparently reported as "Killed in action 14/11/1914", something I'd like to find out more about. Not just "died of wounds on..." but specifically "killed in action"
School service today - 1000+ OBs remembered of which almost 700 in WW1. The same number of red cardboard tanks on the altar steps. Reminder of the horror and futility of war. I have become a thankful and grateful pacifist in my middle age! Read Lynne Macdonald's The Somme and the horror can never be forgotten.
Eldest oab played in the band that led the parade here in Dunblane today.
A packed cathedral for a moving and thoughtful service, then all the churches and many others met up here for a short ceremony. A good few serving forces members turned out as well as the Legion, a reminder that war is still happening.
A good moment to stop and think of more than my life.
[url= https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7473/15750095905_3b97b88537_b.jp g" target="_blank">
[url= https://www.flickr.com/photos/matt_outandabout/15750095905/ ]IMAG1454[/url] by [url= https://www.flickr.com/people/matt_outandabout/ ]matt_outandabout[/url], on Flickr
Given the channels I watch I was expecting this:
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We remember WWI on the eleventh hour of the eleventh day of the eleventh month in France.
Troll, indeed, hope you feel better about yourself.
Without wishing to come across as a troll what I feel about that first picture is greatsadness that we've forgotten all the other nationalities that lost hundreds of thousands of men. Where are the french and the indians, the belgians?
Can we not have a day with no flags, no medals, no uniforms and just contemplate the loss of so many men and women in the last 100 years?
I had a nice day cycling in the sun. And remembering the family members who made it the way it is today.
And then feeling grumpy about all my favourite pubs being full of the crowd who only come out today and Mother's Day.
we've forgotten all the other nationalities that lost hundreds of thousands of men
Speak for yourself.
Speak for yourself.
+1
I am speaking for myself. I think what I wrote is clear, pictures like that clearly show we have. It was not a comment on individuals reflections and I cincerely hope my post wasn't disrespectful.
Josh, a valid point and no disrespect read (Sorry if mine was harsh.), but when I look at a pic like that, I don't think who the people on top are, where they are from etc. I don't see them as "us". I'm just thankful that now there are more people on the top half of the picture, and that the days of the lower half are, thankfully, mainly in the past.
Josh, every country mourns it own war dead at the appropriate time; I'm pretty sure that they are as understanding about the fact that we are remembering the commonwealth dead as we should be about them remembering their dead.
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My Daughter is the one wearing the red hoodie, laying a wreath on behalf of Sunday school.
Josh, every country mourns it own war dead at the appropriate time; I'm pretty sure that they are as understanding about the fact that we are remembering the commonwealth dead as we should be about them remembering their dead.
"I decided not to wear a poppy today because one sixteenth of my ancestors was a Nazi and I should respect their views too, so in the interests of being all inclusive, I bricked a Synagogue."
http://www.arrse.co.uk/community/threads/poppy-outrage-thread.221269/page-22
Insightful piece from a brave man:
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/nov/08/poppy-last-time-remembrance-harry-leslie-smith
Sorry, but that picture is all wrong for me. We don't live comfortable, safe lives because of WWI. That war was a clash of empires, it was senseless, industialised slaughter of a generation. It wasn't a war of good against evil, it wasn't a war of survival, it was a war over prestige and territory.
To try to pretend that all those deaths were for a higher purpose is to gloss over the true horror of it.
I spent today at The Tower of London. I'm glad I went. I agree with the OP's sentiments. However, i also believe that there is more than a modicum of truth in what bencooper says. I am a common man. I like to believe that my forebears fought for the right thing.
Ben is correct, the sad fact is, those who truly benefited from both the world wars are more powerful than ever.
Follow the money... there are still 100 year old debts being paid, but to whom?
So many brave men lost forever and their families bearing the scars to this day, but for what exactly?
Beyond all the media facade of heroes and villains, the same story is played out, the bankers, the arms industry and those who claim the spoils of war keep the war machine turning for their own benefit, the lives lost but an acceptable investment towards profitable returns and extending global influence.
History is written by the winners, but the game is rigged.
I've just read on twitter that approx [b]40 days of global military spending could end world poverty[/b]... can anyone confirm or deny this, with facts to back it up?
Sorry, but that picture is all wrong for me. We don't live comfortable, safe lives because of WWI. That war was a clash of empires, it was senseless, industialised slaughter of a generation. It wasn't a war of good against evil, it wasn't a war of survival, it was a war over prestige and territory.To try to pretend that all those deaths were for a higher purpose is to gloss over the true horror of it.
cannot disagree with this.
Ben, good point, but Remembrance day is not just about WWI, it's supposed to be for all wars. Definitely applies to WWII.
Re the Indian contribution, we happened to be visiting Brighton Pavillion on Saturday and what really got to me was the chattri on top of the downs where they used to cremate the Indian soldiers who had died in the hospital. One of the photo captions said that it was the only one for thousands of miles. They were a long way from home.
Ben, good point, but Remembrance day is not just about WWI, it's supposed to be for all wars. Definitely applies to WWII.
True, but they're WWI soldiers in that picture.
And what's changed? 453 dead soldiers in Afghanistan, 179 in Iraq, and for what? Remembrance day is used to put a nationalistic, sentimental gloss on the continuing loss of young lives in pointless wars. To see Tony Blair, a man responsible for maybe a million deaths, standing there with his poppy and sad face instead of in a prison cell makes a mockery of it.
The Royal British Legion took an anti-war song and rereleased it without the anti-war verses. They take donations from arms companies. This is the establishment saying that it's fine and proper to die for one's country, without asking why.
^^^^ beat me to it. Like so many public monuments it's all about hierarchy, submission, predominantly working class lives being lost as a result of p-poor decisions being made by the politicians and officer classes behind the lines (Gallipolli, etc etc).
What changed? WWII.
This is the establishment saying that it's fine and proper to die for one's country
I agree with your initial post but I strongly disagree with that sentiment. NO-ONE is saying it's 'proper' or in any way desirable to die for one's country. That's the whole point of this.
The reason we remember is to try to prevent.
The reason we remember is to try to prevent
That's the reason you and I remember, it's not the reason the establishment remembers. Have they shown any inclination to try preventing war? The UK has been at war somewhere in the world ever since 1914.
I fear "remembering" is all to often an expression of the exact kind of nationalism that led to the conflict. There are exceptions though, the last Normandy beaches anniversary included representatives from both sides.
As for doing something to prevent war, I organise an exchange between German and French schools. Building links of friendship and cooperation between young generations.
it's not the reason the establishment remembers. Have they shown any inclination to try preventing war?
In the long run, yes. That's why we are members of the UN and the EU. Afghanistan and Iraq are not on the same scale as either world war, let's be honest.
Also remember nuclear disarmament, the lack of war in Iran, and defence spending cuts to name just three examples of diminished appetite for war. Of course they haven't achieved perfectly, but that doesn't mean they have done nothing.
In the long run, yes. That's why we are members of the UN and the EU. Afghanistan and Iraq are not on the same scale as either world war, let's be honest.
theres a belief that world war 3 has already happened (im not going all jivehoney)
the post colonial collapse of order in parts of africa has left 10 million dead in the congo alone
what is deeply hypocritical is our continued subsidised arms sales industry
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just look at the peace and stability we export to teh middle east
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[i]Afghanistan and Iraq are not on the same scale as either world war, let's be honest.[/i]
In terms of deaths of soldiers you're probably right, in terms of civilian deaths I think you comment at best lacks understanding, at worst is blindly xenophobic
well said Ben Cooper.
coincidently, i visited a small war graves cemetry a few weeks ago on my way to a ride. tucked away at the foot of the Bavarian alps is a small British cemetry for those who died during WW2. almost exclusively air men. and a surprisingly large number of Indian officers alongside many other commonwealth and british air crew.
i think the average age was around 19-21. some of the inscriptions were quite moving.
needless to say i was a bit of a wreck for some time afterwards.
edit:
just found this on the CWGC website:
"DURNBACH WAR CEMETERY contains 2,934 Commonwealth burials of the Second World War"
wow.
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beat me to it. Like so many public monuments it's all about hierarchy, submission, predominantly working class lives being lost as a result of p-poor decisions being made by the politicians and officer classes behind the lines (Gallipolli, etc etc).
I'm sorry but that's a view of reality that isn't borne by the numbers, Officer casualties in both WW1 and 2 were are a far higher rate than the average. In WW1 the Officer losses were so disproportionate they had to restrict the number that were committed to battle to ensure that after the battle the unit could be reconstructed.
The distinctive point in WW1 was that all were expected to join up and the horrific casualties were shared across the social strata.
You will notice that today not single politician (that I am aware of) that has a son or daughter in the armed forces
Personally, I just can't take the poppy nonsense seriously.
It's almost like a big joke, WW1 and 2 were massive sacrifices, I have no truck with learning their stories and learning the lessons is important. But these lessons are learned far more valuably by watching history documentaries.
My biggest issue is that this whole remembrance thing isn't about learning lessons, it's about normalizing and linking today transgressions, it's overly emotional bollocks.
I can't take it seriously while we start wars and create conditions for the military industrial complex to run riot. i particularly can't take it seriously when we're one of the biggest arms suppliers.
If remembrance was anti-war I'd be all for it. But it's far from that imo.
For these reason, I refuse to wear a poppy and the whole thing strikes me as distasteful.
what is deeply hypocritical is our continued subsidised arms sales industry
Wholly agree with you there kimbers... whatsmore, the arms lobby appears to have enough clout to steer the media narrative.
In terms of deaths of soldiers you're probably right, in terms of civilian deaths I think you comment at best lacks understanding, at worst is blindly xenophobic
With you on that nick, the perspective generally presented by the media has a distinct whiff of patriotic propaganda.
I can't take it seriously while we start wars and create conditions for the military industrial complex to run riot. i particularly can't take it seriously when we're one of the biggest arms suppliers.If remembrance was anti-war I'd be all for it. But it's far from that imo.
Spot on
Is our appetite for war diminished, not on the current evidence. "Trainers" being sent to Iraq???? Dont they mean the SAS who just seem to enjoy the job a little to much.
In my family I had a grandfather that served in the RFC, 1 grandfather that served as a motorcycle dispatch rider, 1 great uncle who served in the commandos, 1 great uncle who served in the Paras and two great uncles who served on the Somme. Basically a family history composed of people who served in the sharp end of the infantry.
I'm not entirely sure any of them would have agreed with what remembrance sunday has become really. The grandfather who was a dispatch rider served in the Middle East and Italy and if I remember saw action at Monte Casino, he was an especially cynical bugger.
My biggest issue is that this whole remembrance thing isn't about learning lessons, it's about normalizing and linking today transgressions, it's overly emotional bollocks.
Oddly enough (?) none of that yesterday - all about remembrance, of the OBs from school and for all sides. Not overlay emotional either, simply respectful and thoughtful. Re learning lessons, every new boy is given one of the fallen to research in their first week. The first thought is to remember the lessons. Yes a wreath was also laid at the memorial to a recent OB killed but no harm or glorification in that.
If remembrance was anti-war I'd be all for it. But it's far from that imo.
I can't see how respecting and remembering the fallen is either pro or anti. If anything the latter....
For these reason, I refuse to wear a poppy and the whole thing strikes me as distasteful.
Each to their own.
In terms of deaths of soldiers you're probably right, in terms of civilian deaths I think you comment at best lacks understanding, at worst is blindly xenophobic
Really? Well I'm aware of the likely numbers of civillian casualties, and that is awful indeed, but again I don't think it's comparable to WWI. The reasoning is completely different, the scale is different, the background is different, the prosecution is different. The only similarity is that people are dead.
Questioning the "war to end all wars", he said before his death: "It wasn’t worth it. No war is worth it. No war is worth the loss of a couple of lives let alone thousands."
"War," he said, "is organised murder, and nothing else."
Harry Patch
