AFAICS she had some health issues that unfortunately the NHS weren’t much help with (CFS/ME type stuff – I remember because I am a fellow sufferer)
Genuinely, I'm very sorry to read this.
health issues that unfortunately the NHS weren’t much help with (CFS/ME type stuff – I remember because I am a fellow sufferer)
For what it's worth I can fully sympathize; my dad has been a sufferer for many years; in his case, it's almost certainly down to organophosphate poisoning; for some reason though, the government chose not to pursue the approx 30,000 cases of ill health due to the sheep dip that they ruled mandatory at the time
As the Guardian revealed last year, at least 500 farmers across the UK were left with debilitating health problems after using organophosphate-based (OP) chemicals to protect their sheep against parasites, under the government’s compulsory dipping programme which ran up until 1992.
Based on a more recently released survey, campaigners estimate more than 30,000 were likely to have suffered some form of ill health from using OP dips.
It is now known that officials had evidence of the danger that using the chemical was having on farmers’, their wives, children and even the local officials ensuring that sheep were properly dipped, yet at the time ministers publicly rebuked farmers not using it.
Some figures who have spoken very prominently about other cases of organophosphate poisoning had surprisingly little to say when it came to HM Government's involvement in such matters
https://twitter.com/OldTomYoung/status/1083391421699248133
Pff, and you call us sheeple...
News to me, though I suppose there's a lot of folk on the lam(b) when it comes to the truth
Grum summed up the poster's situation very well, as I see it, a long time and lovely forumite who had a bad experience and found "help" or "comfort" at the top of a slippery slope.
Shows how easy it is, and how all the poi ta that PJM has raised are still not enough to shine a light on the much darker forces influencing those circles.
Whilst Alex Jones and David Icke are 2 clear examples, there’s evidence to suggest more credible sources such as Carole Cadwalladr and Peter Jukes are not all they seem
Curious - re Peter Jukes, the only "evidence" that I've seen is from Jay Beecher, who is hardly a reliable source. his claims about Jukes were echoed by James Melville, who subsequently apologised and paid Jukes' legal costs.. It's fair to say that the alt-right often weaponise accusations of paedophilia and the allegations made by Jay Beecher against Peter Jukes have thus far not been followed up by the police.
Carole Cadwalladr has been on the receiving end of targeted abuse on social media, but again I cannot see anywhere that she is "not what she seems to be" (paraphrased).
Some citations would be a good place to start.
the alt-right often weaponise accusations of paedophilia
"Have you stopped beating your wife..." Stock in trade for the peddlers of grift and whisperers of nonsense that support them
Keep it on topic JHJ.
I was unaware of Jay Beecher's allegations against Peter Jukes; my main concern is that whilst on the face of it both Jukes and Carole Cadwalladr are investigative journalists, exposing scandal, when it comes to it, they generally promote the establishment narrative.
See also another of Peter Juke's pals Tom Watson, which of course leads us back to Exaro News
Some citations would be a good place to start.
....
No further questions, your honour.
Carole Cadwalladr are investigative journalists, exposing scandal, when it comes to it, they generally promote the establishment narrative.
You are aware that Carole Cadwalladr exposed Cambridge Analytica which got the current government into power and was a major contributing factor behind the Brexit leave campaign? I hardly think she could be described as 'promoting the establishment narrative' when she did so much to shine a light on the goings on of the current bunch in power!!
I have said this before - but can we please not pile on cinnamongirl. It really doesn't help, anybody. Thanks!
I have said this before – but can we please not pile on cinnamongirl
Stop spreading absolute shit then.
So the defense of this...
Whilst Alex Jones and David Icke are 2 clear examples, there’s evidence to suggest more credible sources such as Carole Cadwalladr and Peter Jukes are not all they seem
... is this...
my main concern is that whilst on the face of it both Jukes and Carole Cadwalladr are investigative journalists, exposing scandal, when it comes to it, they generally promote the establishment narrative.
Ok, gotcha. I don't agree, but if that's as weak as that argument is, I'm not going to waste any more time on it.
hels
Free Member
I have said this before – but can we please not pile on cinnamongirl. It really doesn’t help, anybody. Thanks!
Absolutely not intending to pile on the person, but by posting quite controversial points surely a rebuttal is allowed?
I mean, alleging the use of 'crisis actors' at all, let alone in this context, is pretty 'out there' and deserving of a response, surely?
Absolutely not intending to pile on the person, but by posting quite controversial points surely a rebuttal is allowed?
I mean, alleging the use of ‘crisis actors’ at all, let alone in this context, is pretty ‘out there’ and deserving of a response, surely?
I dont want to scare her off, because I'm more interested in hearing about the Freedom Convoy from someone who was part of it, rather than a potentially biased news story.
Mainly, what are the freedoms that people want, but also how blocking/obstructing major roads is going to acheive this.
All very easy for folk who aren't under the constant threat of an eager ban hammer
Keep it on topic JHJ.
Suffice to say, the 1st time I heard of Bellingcat in it's infancy, was via Tom Watson...
https://twitter.com/tom_watson/status/502934865659318273
back then, I was well impressed by Watson's apparent gusto and willingness to take on the status quo, not only in terms of apparently wanting to get to the bottom of 'allegations of a paedophile ring leading all the way to no 10' but also fresh from his work putting a chink in the armour of the Murdoch Empire, with his trusty sidekick, Peter Jukes...
https://twitter.com/nw_nicholas/status/1101176747498844169
That'd be the same Bellingcat that continually claimed to be THE source for all things relating to the Syrian Conflict, whilst failing to mention the source of the arms flooding into the region...
No big surprise there though
https://twitter.com/MarkAmesExiled/status/1043866370277036033
Cadwalldr can often be found singing Bellingcat's praises, no big surprise given her links to the Integrity Initiative.
https://twitter.com/kennardmatt/status/1484103609738530817
In essence, I was previously impressed by the work of Tom Watson, Peter Jukes and Carole Cadwalladr, however, over time, their actions revealed they were far from trustworthy; 'controlled opposition' if you will.
But back on topic... do I condone the actions of a bunch of misguided souls, stirred into action by relentless propaganda?
Hell no, and those conspiraloons mentioned at the start of the thread don't sound too savoury either...
but can we please not pile on cinnamongirl. It really doesn’t help, anybody.
A bit late for that....
crisis actors
With regard to the impact of one person's conspiracy theory on another, I'm going to give a real example of something that happened on this forum to me last week. This is me:
Well, I must come from an incredibly unlucky family then – as posted before I lost my uncle in May ’20 and my mum just before xmas ’20 from Covid. An old school friend of mine has been in charge of an ICU in Leicester, he’s been telling me about the impact that Covid has had on him and the people around him.
Just a few posts later, an account which was activated here on the 5th December 2021 and which has never once posted anything vaguely off road cycling related retorts with this:
I can’t help but think that this thread and the much wider debate in general would be better served if the following phrases were banned wholesale across the country:
– My [insert family related noun here] died of Covid
When challenged by another forumite who posted this:
...but you post this (below), knowing that a contributor to this thread has lost 2 members of his family to Covid. It’s one of the most deliberately nasty comments I’ve seen posted on this thread or the other.
Judetheobscure replied with this:
WHAT?
Are you serious? Everyone on this forum has lost someone to something! I was simply making the point that a) a death from Covid is like all other deaths – tragic and deeply sadenning for those who were close to the individual
Now, no apology was forthcoming, but Jude's post was edited to remove the offensive (to me) reference. That's it. I am not trying to revisit a closed thread, but certain accounts were rather callous in their responses to me and others.
I've several examples of incidents where people have piled on abuse at me on twitter for tweeting that I'd lost family to covid. Moreover, last Saturday, I was enjoying a pint with a friend in my local when a bloke my friend knew walked up and proceeded to hijack the conversation. He ended up telling me that "only 18,000 people have actually died from covid you know". I explained what I'd quoted in the first paragraph - that I've lost a parent and an uncle to it.
"Oh really, did they have any underlying health problems?"
At this point, I explained that I was done with the conversation removed myself from the conversation and went elsewhere in the pub.
What happened next truly upset me - the bloke followed me and kept repeating his assertion at me. I asked him several times to go away and to leave me alone, but he didn't stop until I made it clear to him that if he said one more word to me, I'd put him on the floor.
The point that I'm trying to make here is that the loss of people close to me has had a profound effect - I've just finished a three month course of counselling. I'm trying to put pieces of my life and career back together, it's really not easy. I know that I'm not the only one on this forum who has lost loved one's to covid or who has dealt with or continues to deal with the fallout from long-covid. I'm truly sorry for everyone who has had to go through it.
To summarise - people's need to believe in conspiracy theories can have real-world consequences. Sometimes peoples' empathy goes right out of the window because their innate need to voice something controversial overrides their ability to understand that to do so will cause distress. Unfortunately, in so many ways this continues to happen in virtually every topical event, from the climate crisis to economics - "the experts are all wrong, here's what I saw on YouTube" being the default retort. And I'm bloody tired of it.
They’ve just been interviewing a few of the Alpha Bellends Assemble fruitloops on channel 4 news, including (somewhat inevitably) Piers Corbyn.
They ended up arguing amongst themselves about which particular conspiracy theory it was they were advocating today, but it’s just the usual QAnon bullshit
They should just throw the lot of them into a soft play area for their own protection
@PJM1974 that is despicable behaviour, and a hard read, I can only imagine how awful it must have been to experience it for real. The on forum behaviour directed at you is pretty scummy too. Some people just have a complete empathy vaccum.
@PJM1974 - that’s absolutely ridiculous.
I’m not sure I’d have managed to be as restrained as you in the same situation
I would have lost my shit at the 'underlying health issues' bit. As if that somehow makes them lesser people. 🤬
So sorry this happened to you. Some people's wiring has gone seriously wrong in the last couple of years.
@PJM1974, that's dreadful, I really don't know if I'd have remained as calm as you. That's shocking.
What they all said.
There's a time and a place, "I've recently lost family members" is perhaps not the opportune moment for someone else to be forcing an argument.
Sorry dude, that's horrific.
I was really hoping to visit Finland one day.
Thanks all, I genuinely appreciate that.
I understand why some individuals latch on to questionable theories, i have an old friend who has gone completely off piste.
He is in his 50s divorced, no kids or much family, he lives in rural isolation (by choice) he has never worked in public or private sector organisations and has limited colleagues and friends, he has a lot of time on his hands and exists on Facebook... i think there are many like him and these theories provide community, a common cause, something to get behind, something that provides them with a perceived knowledge/value that they may not have found elsewhere.
That and the fact he's gone ****ing mad.
Forgot to say i have been keeping an eye on him and did buy him a bump hat for Christmas- which he did laugh about... well i think it was laughing
I understand why some individuals latch on to questionable theories, i have an old friend who has gone completely off piste.
It does happen, I've friends who are well educated and qualified in their respective fields who have their quirky views as it were, but these sorts of things always used to be relatively harmless. I've never been followed around my local by a UFO nut for example, because for the most part there used to be some self-awareness about fringe beliefs etc.
i think there are many like him and these theories provide community, a common cause, something to get behind, something that provides them with a perceived knowledge/value that they may not have found elsewhere.
Indeed. It's a real shame that our schools don't teach critical thinking.
I was listening to a podcast with an expert in conspiracy theory beliefs etc and he reckons he could fairly quickly identify at least one conspiracy-type unsubstantiated belief in pretty much anyone - even the most rational, evidence-based, skeptical (in the true sense) sciencey types.
Not me though obviously 🙂
I always work on the principle that there’s no way on earth that the people generally accused of complex conspiracies are anywhere near intelligent or competent enough to actually pull off what they’re being accused of.
I'm a teacher. My job is to help children understand 'truth'. I teach biology, a mostly factual subject with a lot of ethics involved at certain points.
A significant part of my role is to try to modify pre-conceived ideas that the students consider to be the truth. In general pupils believe their parents over their teachers, so attitudes met at home are the norm so thus become truth.
It takes a huge amount of work to modify pre-conceived and inherited ideas in children. To do so successfully is massively difficult unless the person is open to new ideas.
To change the attitudes of some people will be enormously difficult. It will be akin to trying to persuade me that dinosaurs didn't exist.
people’s need to believe in conspiracy theories can have real-world consequences
Absolutely this. It's easy to write it off as fringe nutters and wierdos, but once they start to gather pace they become a different beast entirely.
A recent poll showed that >40% of American's don't believe that Biden legitimately won the election. How on earth is America coming back from that?
Every time somebody repeats something that's objectively false, the truth is diminished. What's going to happen when 51% of Americans believe something equally stupid/wrong?
It’s a real shame that our schools don’t teach critical thinking.
Yes - this is what strikes me: the people believing this shite often haven't thought about it beyond what's on the very surface - often a single question/counterpoint is enough to completely up-end the logic of what they are saying. They are obviously very passionate about this, but they don't really seem to have spent more than about 5 minutes actually thinking about it themselves.
Personally, the most interesting question is: "why do you want to believe that?". The US stuff is easy to understand - there are lots of fairly obvious reasons why a certain chunk of US society doesn't want to believe that the Dems legitimately won. But the covid stuff is less obvious - why do people want to believe that "only" 18,000 people have died? Is it just the standard reasons that people believe in conspiracies..... or are they so angry about the restrictions that they have latched-on to this bullshit to legitimise their anger (rather than it just being "but I don't WANT to wear a mask!")?
Sorry about your experience PJM1974 - I would have lost my rag completely
I always work on the principle that there’s no way on earth that the people generally accused of complex conspiracies are anywhere near intelligent or competent enough to actually pull off what they’re being accused of.
This is very true, however the problem is Watergate. Whilst ultimately they were caught out the sheer scale and complexity of the conspiracy, involving highly intelligent and competent people, was staggering.
I doubt that we would be quite so awash with conspiracy theories today if it wasn't for Watergate. Especially originating from the United States.
Personally, the most interesting question is: “why do you want to believe that?”
There's often a hefty chunk of narcissism involved IMO. Doesn't necessarily matter what the conspiracy theory is they just like the perceived kudos of having special secret knowledge that the mass of sheeple don't have access to or can't understand.
It staggers me how people fall for it. I've had my moments on social media when I've (in good faith) challenged someone's opinion and have asked them to not only give evidence, but to explain how they understand it. 90% of the time I'm redirected to the account of some crypto-bro, a meme or a YouTube vid.
And there's always the Chewbacca defence.
There’s often a hefty chunk of narcissism involved IMO. Doesn’t necessarily matter what the conspiracy theory is they just like the perceived kudos of having special secret knowledge that the mass of sheeple don’t have access to or can’t understand.
Yes, and I'm wondering whether this is dependent on how complex (or confronting) the reality of the situation is. ie: are people more inclined to believe conspiracy theories in response to a more complex or confronting reality?
hefty chunk of narcissism involved IMO.
Harsh and imo unfair. I believe that it is more a case of it creating a feeling of empowerment to people who otherwise feel, often quite rightly, powerless.
Yes it makes them feel good about themselves but often because they find themselves through no fault of their own in shit situations.
Harsh and imo unfair. I believe that it is more a case of it creating a feeling of empowerment to people who otherwise feel, often quite rightly, powerless.
Yes it makes them feel good about themselves but often because they find themselves, through no fault of their own, in shit situations.
I agree that more people are probably drawn-in for the reasons you mention, but I think both things can be true. I'm sure there are lots of reasons to people to buy-in to alternative facts/realities.
Often the facts speak for themselves... however, by sticking to the facts, you can find yourself in an alternate reality.
There are many stories the media will never investigate, whether for legal, financial or political reasons.
In many instances, even when stories are investigated, there are all sorts of goings on behind the scenes when folk have the wealth to bring in reputation management services who will plant false info and misdirect for a fee.
But the covid stuff is less obvious – why do people want to believe that “only” 18,000 people have died?
I have seen people arguing and I agree with them thats its one of the easier ones to explain. We have had decades or even centuries of humanity going against nature and "winning" (so long as you ignore inconvenient details) but here is one which really slaps us in the face. Its about feeling small in the face of nature and not wanting to admit it. Therefore some people chose the its a fake somehow and that a subset of humanity has created it for gain vs all of us being victims to some level or another.
It comes down to agency either at an individual or species level. Some feel happier if the control is at the individual level as opposed to just chance even when as a species we can tilt it in our favour.
There are many stories the media will never investigate, whether for legal, financial or political reasons.
All conspiracy stories are worth investigating. They sell and provide huge benefits to those who break the stories. Over 40 years later the Washington Post still receives credit for its tireless investigation of Watergate. The Guardian newspaper has massively benefited by investigating conspiracies such as those involving brown paper envelopes.
Obviously investigating baseless theories full of obvious unscientific bullshit is however a waste of time. Although the Sunday Sport did for a while exploit a niche which no one else could be bothered with.
Harsh and imo unfair. I believe that it is more a case of it creating a feeling of empowerment to people who otherwise feel, often quite rightly, powerless.
I have a lot of sympathy with this view - New Scientist
Worth a read.
It refers to two different types of narcissism: grandiose and vulnerable.
It definitely seems likely that the uptake of conspiratorial thinking among the 'wellness community' is aided by narcissistic tendencies IMO.
As above I think there's several different routes into it. There was a woman who was on TV ranting madly about q anon stuff who now realises how sucked in she was - she was a successful person and hadn't undergone any traumas or great life challenges I don't think.
