[Closed] 4x4 or 2wd with snow tyres?

Is the real question What car for driving over other stuck cars ?

2wd with snow tires is good on iced roads esp as typically they weigh alot less than 4x4s but come unstuck due to ground clearance ime

4x4s( unless your talking about faux by faux cars) really need to take it easy in the twistys and under breaking due to the weight and high cog

Key to remember is youll move forward easier in 4x4 but its still the same two wheels doing the steering the same 4 doing the braking as youndo in a 2wd car.

And finally , if you dont know how tomuse a 4x4 properly it can just make it more difficult to be rescued, you need to undersand their limitations.

I've both a 4*4 and a normal front wheel drive car, both have winter tyres on during the darker months of the year.

The advantage of the 4*4 is that it is capable of climbing the very steep hill to my house, whilst the 2wd can't, other than that both are fine for driving in the snow.

However I'd take the 4*4 everyday if it came down to feeling more secure.

If you need a 4x4 and a small commuter then a Panda is worth looking at

Winter M&S tyres make a huge difference on both regular an 4x4

Worth thinking about the car if its got big wide tyres and you stick M&S on it it will be out performed by a standard panda on skinny M&S tyres when it gets really bad

Having used winter tyres (well, four season tyre, actually) for the first time last year, I can't see a need for a 4x4 for most people. There might be occasions where the extra ground clearance of a proper 4x4 would be an advantage, but when the snow gets much above the bumpers, 4x4 will struggle anyway. As has been said, when it comes to braking, winter tyres on 2wd will stop quicker than 4x4 on summer tyres.

Yip pandas are fun so are those suzuki jimny things .
Get her on one of those off road courses ..
Then if the snow comes its water off a ducks back

Pick an audi of the size you like.

Buy the Quattro variant.

Stick snow tyres on in winter.

Sorted.

One of the car websites did a test. 4x4 with all season tires vs a front wheel drive with snow tires.
The 2wd car left the other fro deal in all situations.

I think it was autocar or auto express.

Edit- found the link

Is that the video equivalent of "caution fire is hot" sign ?

4x4 has advantage of better ground clearance if you live somewhere rural where you get drifting snow, but they do have plenty of disadvantages (economy, stopping distance in snow/ice on normal tyres).

If you don't need ground clearance then my choice would be a 4x4 variant of a car fitted with winter tyres. The new Skoda Octavia 4x4 diesel gets nearly 70mpg I think 😯

4x4 with winter tyres?

Seems obvious...

Qashqai, 2wd, winters.

shifter - Member
Qashqai, 2wd, winters.

What advantage would that have over a normal car? I just don't get it - higher COG, worse handling, worse economy and no 4x4. I guess you could argue that you've got marginally increased ground clearance, but if the snow is that deep then it's not much use without 4x4.

Qashqui its the new people carrier isnt it . When i see middle aged men driving them i just know that their wife picked the car. A little bit of them dies each time they are seen in it.

I drive a scooby legacy with M&S tyres - which is great.

But when I lived in rural Canada and we had snow on the ground and roads (no tarmac) for 6 months a year - most people thought snow tyres more important than 4x4.

So if you have to choose fwd with snow tyres or 4x4 without - I'd take the former

My transporter on continental summer tyres gets stuck on (laughably) slight muddy inclines. It's useless. (or rather the tyres are).
Same vehicle with winter tyres can hare around snow covered roads in Sweden and be the large taxi of choice.

No need for 4x4 unless you're tackling steep inclines.

4WD *only* helps with acceleration (or keeping the car moving/getting up hills). It doesn't help with braking or corners, so given the choice, I'd go with 2WD with winter tyres. Carry some snow chains and you'll be able to keep moving up to the point that the road is blocked with cars that can't...

I'd say get the 2wd you want - and winter tyres for the winter :). Don't compromise the 50 weeks a year for the sake of the 2 weeks, especially when 2wd and winter tyres are most likely good enough.

This was my commute last spring - until the farmer ploughs you're not getting through in any car 4x4 or 2wd anyway. It involves some 1-in-10 gradients and plenty of drifting snow. The car is a Honda Civic Type-R - abysmal in the snow on summer tyres but quite fine with the winters on.

The 2wd car left the other fro deal in all situations.(I presume you mean: The 2wd car left the other for dead in all situations 🙂 )

I used to drive a Range Rover Sport. With summer tyres on it was useless, the wide alloys acted like skis and the weight meant it was prone to slid about. I then fitted M&S tyres which made a huge difference.
Wife drives a Seat Altea with M&S set up for winter. Her Altea was more sure footed than the RRS.
I now drive a Audi Quattro with M&S set up for winter, but it’s the tyres that make the biggest difference

Well done Dashed, increased clearance is exactly what I meant. The only thing that caused me bother in recent winters on summer low profiles was clearance.

Trailrat you have some odd ideas. You KNOW who chose whose car but think a Quashqai is a people carrier?

And - wooooosh right over your head.

The qashqai seems to be the invogue default for school run mums around here . It used to be the people carrier.

The problem with 4x4 is that you have to pay for it up front and carry it around the rest of the year where it saps fuel. And possibly pay hugely if it goes wrong.

Winters on 2WD need not cost you any fuel at all, and doesn't cost you in tyres either in the long run because each set lasts twice as long.

As above if you have a foot or more of snow to deal with then the ground clearance is important. There are 'normal' cars with 4x4 that are a little higher up which might suit. The problem with off-roaders is the size costs you loads of fuel due to air resistance.

The girlfriend now drives a pretty twisty section of road to work which typically gets affected adversley by snow

Google maps link to the road?

My next door neighbour has a RR Sport. He could not get up the (steep) hill to our houses last January due to snow.

My wife strolled up serenely in her Grand Scenic with snowsocks on.

The third way.

Never run 4x4 on road in the UK, never run winter tyres. Been stuck 3 times due to my own stupidity, got my self out too. Knowing how to drive what to carry and what to do is as important if not more so than what your in. Also knowing when to stay at home, gone are the days of getting a pat on the back for being the brave idiot who made the tough journey to get to work, most sensible employers would rather you stayed at home than risk too much (and then consider where you live)

Knowing how to drive what to carry and what to do is as important if not more so than what your in.

No it's not. If you've never driven winters you don't know what you're missing! Why struggle with the wrong equippment?

I'm not talking about getting to work either, I'm talking about going out for the day.

My next door neighbour has a RR Sport. He could not get up the (steep) hill to our houses last January due to snow.

Not quite true is it ? He stuggled due to satelite dish wheels with rubber band summer tires ill bet . Rr sport on winters wont struggle due to snow.

Not talking about struggling with the wrong equipment, driving in snow and ice is completely different, it's unpredictable, there are idiots out there, what looks like drivable could be a bank of snow. Going out with a magic pill of winter tyres or 4 wheel spin doesn't really help. Knowing some basics like how to get a car out when it's stuck and all wheels spinning are much more important.

Thanks for the woosh Trailrat, and the further two sentences to explain what you actually meant!

Going out with a magic pill of winter tyres or 4 wheel spin doesn't really help.

It really does.

Google maps link to the road?

The section of road is the A6 between Buxton and Bakewell:

[url= http://www.streetmap.co.uk/map.srf?X=410430&Y=372480&A=Y&Z=120&ax=410430&ay=372480 ]Streetmap link[/url]

It's a fairly twisty section of road with some exposed streep sections towards Bakewell.

I drive one of these in Austria

http://www.dacia.co.uk/vehicles/duster/

My girlfriend drives a 12 month old Disco. She spent a whole load more than me and they basically do the same job. Granted hers is a nicer environment to be in but for that money you would hope so.

Both 4wd. I bought mine with a decent spec, 2 years old for 8.500 Euros.
It's a fantastic little thing for the money.
It has never failed to get to the small Gasthouses/Resorts in the middle of norhwhere.

We had a 2wd Mondeo estate with winter tyres and it was great and managed snow and ice no problem, only limited by ground clearance.

Switched that for an Octavia 4x4 estate with standard tyres and it was terrible. Traction to drive, but no cornering and no braking. Now we have winter tyres on that and I am sure it will be excellent... but we haven't had a big dump to test 🙂

4wd in snow without winter tyres = pointless.

Fwd with winters. I've got the Octavia 4x4 and it's not bad on summers, but brilliant on winters. The fwd cars that I've driven at work and wor lasses car on winters, would beat the Octavia on summers

[url= http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8369/8399511026_3cc4254a09_b.jp g" target="_blank">http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8369/8399511026_3cc4254a09_b.jp g"/> [/img][/url]
[url= http://www.flickr.com/photos/66452821@N00/8399511026/ ]Skoda 1, Army Truck 0[/url] by [url= http://www.flickr.com/people/66452821@N00/ ]ritcheyp20[/url], on Flickr

I've had 3 Audi quattro's, a Range Rover and a Jeep Cherokee, and I will always choose winter tyres over all wheel drive. Even my old 3 series Touring was good on snow with Michelin Alpin winters fitted.
I'm currently running Toyo Snowproxes on our S-Max, and cheap Goodrides (fnar) on my Saab 9-5. I wouldn't normally have gone for cheapo winter tyres, but I got them FOC from a work mate.

Throughout the winter months its a legal requirement to have winter tyres on your car in Austria.
If you crash and kill someone without them you will be in prison for murder.

Fiat Panda Trekking, best of both worlds.

Surely, if you are taking your partners safety seriously you need the Mercedes 6x6 G wagon from last nights TopGear!
[img] [/img]

We've got a FWD diesel estate with winters and a freelander with winters.

Not tried the latter in snow yet but we bought it as we need something that can go off road occasionally (we have sheep).

For normal roads the FWD with winter tyres is absolutely fine and is a lot more economical. Only time I have had trouble was trying to get up this hill when the road was completely covered in ice: https://www.google.co.uk/maps/ @51.109138,-2.394863,3a,75y,60.87h,79.33t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1s9YvjAChBsziJedjvri6VoQ!2e0

took 3 attempts as people kept coming down and it was too steep to start off in 2nd but 1st had too much torque. Gameskeeper we were meeting drove a 4x4 wondered how we had got up there.

Although it's been said a million times above, I'll say it again - winters over non-winter 4WD.

The tyres are the only bits touching the road so no matter what the car has in terms of fancy electronics or mechanicals, if the tyre is slipping, it's slipping. Winter tyres make an absolutely huge difference on icy and snowy roads and you'd feel the benefits more than 4WD. And as others have said, you can put summers on the rest of the time and not be lugging round a huge 4WD system you don't need.

The section of road is the A6 between Buxton and Bakewell:

Blimey, I thought you meant some farm track or country lane somewhere.. just get winter tyres!

4wd with snow tyres, of course.

The section of road is the A6 between Buxton and Bakewell:

Lol, just get a half decent modern car with snow tyres.

For the record I have ploughed around all over scottish snow-covered roads in both a normal fwd diesel and a 4wd sports car with 125mm ground clearance (permanent 4wd with LSDs) and I've never got stuck once - it's largely about how you drive it and sticking within sensible limits. That said I'd rather go out with the 4wd over the fwd, but snow tyres on the fwd make a world of difference. [i]That[/i] said, I would rather have a nice tall 4wd with M&S tyres over any of them for those times when it gets really nuts, but it's not common enough to bother the rest of the year with.

4wd is NOT a replacement for winter tyres. 4wd will help you go but won't do anything to help you stop!
Whilst 4x4 would be better than 2wd without winter tyres, the false confidence that 4wd gives you is far more concerning to road safety that the actual increased safety that 2wd on 4 matched winters gives you.
Mikewsmith... Knowing how to get unstuck isn't really the point. Being able provide stop/go/steering input in order to react to other road users to keep yourself safe is far more significant.
Something along the lines of an imprezza/xdrive/quattro probably doesn't give up too much mpg over 2wd alternatives.

4wd is NOT a replacement for winter tyres. 4wd will help you go but won't do anything to help you stop!

Strictly, 4wd helps you go as well as you stop in snow (by bringing 2 more contact patches into the mix). You just normally stop better than you go with a 2wd 🙂

By far the biggest risk I see people taking is not getting stuck, it's ploughing around at stupendous speeds in snow and ice. I spend half my time driving in snow adjusting my own direction and speed to predict where morons will go sailing across junctions and potentially take me out.

My crappy Focus with Icebears on pulled a stuck freeloader out of pitmedden once 😆 That was mud rather than snow but same rules apply I think.

With the mondeo and snowproxes I always suspect it's a little bit [i]too[/i] good at getting going, it'd be relatively easy to get in trouble if you don't keep your head engaged. So many people obsess about getting started and don't think so much about the other end of the equation.

But as far as making progress in fresh snow, on the flat the limiting factor is when it's ploughing so much snow in front of it that it comes over the windscreen (er, and crushes the front splitter, ah well)

Have had a 4x4 for the last ten years up til last spring, bought snow/ winter tyres for the mundano this winter and we haven't ****in had any snow!!!!

Have had a 4x4 for the last ten years up til last spring, bought snow/ winter tyres for the mundano this winter and we haven't **** had any snow!!!!

This actually happened with my other half's car. We had an epic winter (-17, gelled my diesel!) and she decided to invest. Sod all snow ever since.

^^ Can you two buy wet weather tyres next year please?

Sure, I made sure she got rain tyres with her new car but it doesn't seem to have helped. Maybe it's because the snow tyres are still sat on the old car in the drive rotting. I'll palm them off on someone.

(by bringing 2 more contact patches into the mix)

And i would argue that having 4 driven wheels you can use engine braking to provide controled 4 wheel braking and even hill decent if you have a low box. Soon as you touch the brakes going downhill youll slide and 1st gear isnt low enough, ive watched it happen many times while i sit at the top and watch them before engaging low box and letting the engine braking guide me down slowly and safely with no sliding.

I would argue that a 2wd car has the same number of wheels as a 4wd car.

And i would argue that having 4 driven wheels you can use engine braking to provide controled 4 wheel braking

Don't get this. Why is 4wd engine braking any different to the same retarding force applied through the brakes?

Dont do much off roading then,

Going down hill and apply the brakes - youll get weight shift to the front and your bias vslve will send more power to the front brakes and youll lock up once you lock up on ice you will speed up!

First thing i was told when i started off rosding was - if your using your brakes on the course your in the wrong gear. ( trials not comp safari)

Obviously if you have abs and other such driver aids then you may well be ok - although our transit - the only we we could get it to move on snow even on winters was to pull the traction control and abs fuses.

Don't get this. Why is 4wd engine braking any different to the same retarding force applied through the brakes?

As Trail_rat says, if you go for the brakes MOST cars will put 80%+ of the retarding torque through the front wheels. Also, it's usually quite sharply applied as modern cars are generally over-servo'd. Engine braking with a true 4wd it's pretty spectacular what you can maintain control on. Naturally it won't help in an emergency brake situation where you'd not get enough braking from engine braking anyway, but in a "driving around the streets slowly" situation, engine braking is really light years better than just braking. My car has EBD control and that's pretty good but still nothing compared to 4wd engine braking for smooth slow control. MAybe some of the modern ones that just vary pressure rather than applying slip/grip/slip to wheels might be better - not tried them. 4 wheel engine braking is what the hill descent control gadgetry tries to emulate using brakes on modern 4wd's, assuming the driver has no skills.

2WD with snow tyres it is then! Cheers.

The Passat applies the rear brakes in preference, to minimise dive apparently.

If one wheel slips under engine braking, would the other one on that axle not slip if you didn't have diff lock?

What's the difference between hill descent and ABS?

The whole idea behind using engine breaking is to slow in such a way that you dont lose traction.

Ive driven up and down this several times ( i lived at the bottom with no other way in and out) in my land rover on toyo open country m + s road biased ats

[img] [/img]

[img] [/img]

Abs is like repetitive stabbing of the brakes - the hill descent in my parents rr is like dragging the brakes on your push bike.

The Passat applies the rear brakes in preference, to minimise dive apparently.

Seriously? Have you any more info on that as I would doubt that any car would employ a rear wheel braking preference. Are you getting this confused with 'hill descent control' which some vehicles have?

Applying rear brakes instead of front first wouldn't reduce dive, dive is caused by the longitudinal weight transfer set up when the car is decelerated, regardless of which wheels trigger it. Its a suspension design outcome. The only way to reduce dive on an existing car with any particular brake setup is brake less harshly!

If one wheel slips under engine braking, would the other one on that axle not slip if you didn't have diff lock?

Quite the contrary in some respects but with the same net result yes. Open diffs provide equal torque at the wheel outputs. In a powered situation, the wheel that slips sets the torque that the other wheel sees (basically zero) which is why they are not great. In engine braking the same applies, whichever slips first will cause the other to provide very little retarding torque. But the wheels will still tend to be turning at speeds similar to the passing snow/ice so they are more likely to regain traction quickly again. However the point is not to break traction at all, as this is often unrecoverable. Much like when walking down a snowwy slope in slippy shoes, if you stomp down trying to get maximal impact braking from your feet quickly you will tend to slip, if you try to smoothly maximise braking over 10 steps you probably won't slip. Of course you still may run into a tree if it was too close 🙂

ABS waits for traction to be lost, or be about to be lost, then stabs the brakes repeatedly. Hill descent is a much more controlled method and is done different ways by different manufacturers but its aim is to maintain controllable slow descent without ever breaking traction and without large braking inputs.

The big issue is that descent control usually only features on off roaders, whereas gears and engines feature on all cars with similar effect. Of course engine braking is vastly improved if you have 2 axles braking instead of 1, and is even better with snow tyres instead of all season.

Seriously? Have you any more info on that as I would doubt that any car would employ a rear wheel braking preference. Are you getting this confused with 'hill descent control' which some vehicles have?

I read it on a forum, cos usually the rear pads wear more than the fronts apparently. Not entirely sure if it's true but here's [url= http://www.passatworld.com/forums/42-volkswagen-passat-b5-discussion/116970-what-about-rear-brake-bias-passat.html ]some more info/mis-info.[/url]

The whole idea behind using engine breaking is to slow in such a way that you dont lose traction.

Exactly the same aim as ABS, hence my question. From what you've said, if ABS was quick and/or clever enough it would be the same.

No it's not the same as ABS. ABS provides on-off modulation, engine braking provides smooth constant torque. ABS working its bits off is effectively descent control (super fast actuation of each wheel independentl) and is still not as good as proper engine braking on a locked 4wd, but is a close approximation for most uses. However the key difference is that ABS is designed to allow some slip, as that is where best braking lies on tarmac. In snow you absolutely cannot have slip, it's a subtle difference that requires slightly different control algos which is why it needs to be specifically engaged on cars that use it. Incidentally cars that use hdc and have low range available usually combine both for best effectiveness.