[Closed] 35 in a 30 zone

you can't request it, but they'll probably offer it unless you've already been on one recently.

Yes, and yes only if you are given the choice.

Won't it say on the notice of intended prosecution what your options are?

I got caught doing 38 in a 30 and didn't get an option of a course - just the fine and 3 pts.

Yes it is based on ACPO guidance and it depends upon the region as some areas will have a policy of speed awareness course up to a certain level and then prosecution, others will just give you points and fine.

I got a speed awareness course for doing 34 in a 30. Mate of mine got one for doing 33.

On my course there was a woman doing 38 who got an awareness course & the bloke running the course was very surprised at that.

You can't request a speed awareness course. They can offer you one.

Were you definitely done? 35 on your speedo, or actual? I reckon 35 indicated on a speedo might just be under the threshold, depending on how lucky you are.

i got offered the course for 42 in a 30. i very gratefully took it.

Was it a camera or a car? Unlikey to have been a patrol car as there aren't any nowadays apart from the one going up and down the M6 writing tweets that they've caught lots of naughty motorists.

Has anyone been caught speeding in a 20 zone yet? I try not too speed, but sometimes miss where it switches from a 30 to a 20.

Camera van in a quiet layby in Wales:(

Were you definitely done? 35 on your speedo, or actual? I reckon 35 indicated on a speedo might just be under the threshold, depending on how lucky you are.

Most will read over. By law they cannot read under and usually manufacturers will set tolerance above.

My Civic is pretty much 5mph over actual.

By law they cannot read under

i've heard this a few times but surely if so then it would be an MOT check point.

I had a car with a non-working speedo for at least a couple of MOT's and never got more than an advisory.

Every car speedo I have known reads over, normally about 10%.

You can easily check against GPS on your phone or if your satnav can display speed.

Yes it is based on ACPO guidance

Which is 10%+2 I believe, so at 35 you're right on the edge. You'll probably get the offer of either a course or a Fixed Penalty of a fine (£90?) and three points.

Every car speedo I have known reads over, normally about 10%.

Yup. So your speedo would've been reading around 40 or a shade under in all likelyhood. Consider yourself lucky.

Someone will be riding in shortly on a long-legged equine to tell you that you're no better than a child molester and you deserve what you get. Don't do the crime if you can't do the time, or something equally tedious.

Did you see the camera flash? Or did you just see the van and then have a panicky glance at your speedometer?

The vans don't need a flash, that's just the static ones.

I did an awareness course for 40 in a 30.. as others have indicated you won't know until they either offer it or not.

I have heard that 20 limits are legally unenforceable - and no I can't say why, just something my Dad learned from local police (he's Parish Council and the village he lives in have recently had a 20 zone installed)

J

Cougar - Moderator

Every car speedo I have known reads over, normally about 10%.

Yup. So your speedo would've been reading around 40 or a shade under in all likelyhood. Consider yourself lucky.

This is why I asked if it was actual or value on the speedo. If the OP glanced down at his speedo when he saw the camera van & thought "35 - oh, bugger" then he might just get away with it.
Depends if is what actually happened & whether the needle was just above the 35 or just below the 35.... 🙂

OP - you mention it was in Wales - funnily enough, so was mine; in Bala. And so was my mate's who got done for 33 in a 30.

By law they cannot read under
i've heard this a few times but surely if so then it would be an MOT check point.
I had a car with a non-working speedo for at least a couple of MOT's and never got more than an advisory

The reason they don't read under is that that makers don't want to be sued when you get done for speeding.

You don't have to have a speedo, but you might find yourself having your collar felt a lot if you don't have one...

am bo - Member

By law they cannot read under

i've heard this a few times but surely if so then it would be an MOT check point.

I had a car with a non-working speedo for at least a couple of MOT's and never got more than an advisory.

I'm not sure if it's a legal thing, but most manufactures will air on the side of caution with them through fear of being sued if it's shown people are speeding because their car under-reads.

I'm told when they're designing a new car the get the various suppliers in and they might say "okay, you can have this one, it's accurate +/- 2% and costs £30 per car, or you can have this one that's accurate +/- 10% and costs £5 per car".

They'll usually choose the cheaper one - then they'll instruct the makers to ensure that they are set to over-read by 10% so at best they're completely accurate and at worst they over-read by 10%.

There really is no downside for the manufacturer - an over-reading speedo makes their car seem faster than it is, makes it seem more efficient than it is for a given (false) speed and it means services come around sooner (and the mileage is recorded at a faster pace).

They can't be "got" for it, because they will always claim that it's only prudent to make them over-read by 10% based on a device that's accurate +/- 10% to ensure none of their customers are speeding when they don't think they are.

80's Fords were renowned for their ability to travel at fantastic speeds, far in excess of what they were claimed to be able to do - claims of 140mph XR2s weren't uncommon 😉

Every car speedo I have known reads over, normally about 10%.

You can easily check against GPS on your phone or if your satnav can display speed.

Yeah because there is never any error associated with GPS readings...

Whilst a speedometer may not read less and can read more than your actual speed it does not follow that it [I]will[/I] read more than your actual speed.

Purely hypothetically speaking, how long do the letters take to come through the post these days?

[quote=jam bo ]i've heard this a few times but surely if so then it would be an MOT check point.
I had a car with a non-working speedo for at least a couple of MOT's and never got more than an advisory.

All sorts of stuff which are legal requirements which aren't tested at the MOT. It's a legal requirement to have a working speedo (if one was originally fitted) even though it's not an MOT test point, so you were breaking the law - here you go:
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/1986/1078/part/II/chapter/F/made

The idea that it will over-read by 10% is also spurious - mine barely over-reads at 30mph, an indicated 35 would be a real (GPS measured) ~34 (also confirmed by roadside speed indicators, where they show 30 at an indicated ~31), and my previous car was similar, so it's a dangerous assumption that an indicated 35 is legal.

[quote=tomhoward ]You don't have to have a speedo

Only if your car was first used before 1937 - or 1984 for some other types of vehicle - see link above.

@ oldnpastit

AIUI a letter has to be served on the registered keeper of the vehicle within 14 days of he alleged offence.

Purely hypothetically speaking, how long do the letters take to come through the post these days?

34 in a 30 here.
Took the course.
Course was actually not too bad.
Plenty of tea & biscuits.
I tried but couldn't quite eat/drink £90's worth.

[img] [/img]

How do you sleep at night 🙁

Bunch of blooming dog lovers

Has anyone been caught speeding in a 20 zone yet? I try not too speed, but sometimes miss where it switches from a 30 to a 20.

Yes. 36 in a 20, papped by a chap with a laser gun, got a talking to for a first offence. Learnt my lesson, don't do it anymore.

Tell`em to shove it ! ...........they should be out battering peedos and thieves

apart from the one going up and down the M6 writing tweets that they've caught lots of naughty motorists.

Who the hell actually gets enough of a break on the M6 to get their speed up high enough to break the law?!?

I don't think I have ever travelled more than a kilometre of the M6 at something approximating 62 (my vehicle's governed speed limit) before finding myself in another flipping tailback. 😡

Sorry. Carry on.

Has anyone been caught speeding in a 20 zone yet?

Yes rich. Not me! But my good mate has (so this isn't a guy in the pub told me his mate...) - specifically on Ladies Mile going across the downs. And he was a couple of miles under 30!

The 20's in Bristol make little sense, so I was wondering if anyone had been caught out yet.

The 20's in Bristol make little sense

They make lots of sense to me. 🙂

I hope they bloody catch you if you go flying through. 😛

They make lots of sense to me.

I hope they bloody catch you if you go flying through.

+1.

Speedo inaccurate, GPS inaccurate. What you need to is check your Strava results, which are by far the most accurate - I'm hoping you were recording? 🙂

 have heard that 20 limits are legally unenforceable - and no I can't say why, just something my Dad learned from local police (he's Parish Council and the village he lives in have recently had a 20 zone installed)

I'd suggest trying it in a few areas over a couple of weeks. Post your findings on here so we can see how you got on 😀 if the sign has a red ring around it then it's enforceable as per the highway code. Black or green rings are advisory I believe but if you hit a child doing over 20 you will be guilty of excessive speed anyway so you may as well obey them i suppose.

Last I heard our advice to the public in Lancs was that we were going through an intitial testing and consultation phase with local authorities before we start to prosecute in a 20.

Yeah because there is never any error associated with GPS readings...

Do you even understand how a GPS works?

Once it has a good signal it will give a very good indication of speed, especially if it's WAAS enabled. Claimed at a 3m positional error 95% of the time.

The FAQ sheet I got with the NIP from Lancashire Constabulary in December states that their prosecution threshold is 10% plus 3mph for all speed limits. So the lowest speed they prosecute for in a 30mph zone is 36mph.

I was stopped in a 20mph zone in Garstang about 2 years ago for doing 26mph. They just "had a word" as they were only just starting to implement it.

OP, I have been told that the speed limit is the limit ... no more extra 5 mph leniency etc ...

You might be lucky to get away if the cops are having a good mood on the day.

OP, I have been told

STOP PRESS!

I got caught doing 35 in a 30 on my way home from work a year or 2 back and managed to talk my way out of it scot free, a colleague got caught doing 36 and was put on the course.

This was a policeman with a radar / laser gun.

bearnecessities - Member

OP, I have been told

STOP PRESS!

...

Do you even understand how a GPS works?
Once it has a good signal it will give a very good indication of speed, especially if it's WAAS enabled. Claimed at a 3m positional error 95% of the time.

A GPS can be very accurate, but it could easily be misused in recalibration a speedo.

Who ever suggested re-calibrating a speedo with a GPS? Why would you want to?

So a potential 6% error on measuring 100m,

No not exactly. That error rate is for position fixing.

The speed calculation is done by measuring the distance moved from position to position in a given time and then corrected using the doppler shift from the sat signals and is claimed by many manufacturers to be in the region of 0.1mph. It doesn't get worse if you are doing 20 rather 80 also. So a percentage is not really correct.

Gobuchul, if you are saying the speedo reads x mph or y% over you are mentally recalibrating it.

You were the one suggesting 3m accuracy 95% of the time was accurate enough for very good speed measurement. Certainly gps can use doppler shift, but anyone who has used a range of consumer gps devices will have seen one or both of the following phenomena: I. You are standing still and the speed is reported as non zero and II. You are driving along the motorway and stop and come to a quick stop and look at the reported speed and it shows something like 20mph for a second after you stop. Unless you have actually programmed the GPS or calibrated it yourself it's probably unwise to assume that it is necessarily more accurate than any other measurement.

shows something like 20mph for a second after you stop

For a second and then reads accurately. If it's reading steadily then 99% it will be more accurate than your cars speedo.

Unless you have actually programmed the GPS or calibrated it yourself it's probably unwise to assume that it is necessarily more accurate than any other measurement.

Don't think I can do a better job than the engineers at Trimble and Garmin. 🙂

If you're really bored this is the explanation of the function that the vast majority of GPS receivers now have.

[url= http://bioresonant.com/dl/download.htm?name=HighAccuracySpeed.pdf ]High Accuracy GPS speed[/url]

[url= http://gpssystems.net/accurate-gpsbased-speedometer/ ]GPS based speedometer[/url]

A work car (XC70) would regularly set off 40mph speed cameras at an indicated 45mph. The sat nav indicated approx 50mph at this speed. We quickly learned to trust the sat nav speedo over the OE one. Was reported defective many times but the mechanics (inc Volvo) could never find anything wrong with it (or rather; couldn't find out [i]what[/i] was wrong with it). It did have a hard life though! Good ol' WB039. 8)

Gobuchul, my car speedo reads perfectly accurately when the vehicle is stationary!

The point is you have no way of knowing how accurate your Garmin device is, and even less with a phone app (where both the app developer and the hardware provider can introduce error). Moreover because performance varies with signal and satellite position etc unless the device itself is configured to report the error you are blindly assuming that the number is right (and yet we seem to agree there is a short period of averaging or damping to make things more usable, and therefore must actually be wrong a lot of the time!)

I often see 10% difference claimed but I've tried it in a few cars and always see much less. I think it's actually a bit of a dangerous Internet myth which added to things like the acpo guidance seems to mean people think it is "safe" * to drive at an indicated 73 in a 60. Now I am sure you can validate your speedo using the GPS if you are careful about it, but I remain sceptical that it is a good idea. if you want to run on the limit it might be worth bearing in mind that the speedo changes slightly with tyre wear.

* safe from prosecution not in terms of risk which is a whole different debate.

Who the hell actually gets enough of a break on the M6 to get their speed up high enough to break the law?!?

Is GPS speed 100% accurate 100% of the time? Obviously no.*

Is GPS speed considerably more accurate than a cars speedometer 99% of the time? Yes.

if you want to run on the limit

Where did I say that?

I am a little interested in GPS and use it at work in various guises a lot of the time.

Have a look at this if you are having trouble sleeping [url= http://gpsworld.com/ ]http://gpsworld.com/[/url]

*Unless it's a RTK Differential GPS then it's 99.9% accurate for 99.9% of the time.

I break the speed limit somewhere practically every time I go out in the car. I've never been nicked in over 42 years of driving but it's only a matter of time I suppose...

A work car (XC70) would regularly set off 40mph speed cameras at an indicated 45mph. The sat nav indicated approx 50mph at this speed. We quickly learned to trust the sat nav speedo over the OE one. Was reported defective many times but the mechanics (inc Volvo) could never find anything wrong with it (or rather; couldn't find out what was wrong with it). It did have a hard life though! Good ol' WB039.

Speedo has to be lit and have intact glass. Accuracy certainly ismt tested and as for it workng most would give an advisory if they noticed moving it out of the garage.

ACPO policy used to be that 20s wouldn't be enforced by police, which is why 20s tend to be full of traffic-calming measures. I guess from the Lancs example that that's changing
The interpretation of the ACPO 10%+2 threshold for prosecution has also changed; it used to be over the threshold (36+ in a 30), but the threshold seems to be widely applied now (35+ in a 30)
I'm not sure how the 33 and 34 referred to above fit in and the other problem is that ACPO ceased to exist last year, and their policy was due for review in May 2015

Is GPS speed 100% accurate 100% of the time? Obviously no.*

So you agree with me then that there are errors associated with GPS devices. I'd also suggest that in a significantly built up area, e.g. a city where a 30 mph limit is likely to be, that the error is probably greater.

Poly covered all the relevant points more eloquently that I could.

They'll usually choose the cheaper one - then they'll instruct the makers to ensure that they are set to over-read by 10% so at best they're completely accurate and at worst they over-read by 10%.

Mine seems a fairly consistent 4mph over regardless of speed so not convinced the 'safety margin' is a percentage.

I wonder if speedo accuracy is a part of the MOT test?

Nope, they don't even check if it's working as a friend's car just passed and her Speedo has been broken for several years.....

[quote=poly ]Gobuchul, my car speedo reads perfectly accurately when the vehicle is stationary!

More accurate than GPS at that speed then - I'm sure that is handy in 0mph limits. More accurate than mine too, which reads -2mph when stationary, which is a infinite% error 😯

The point is you have no way of knowing how accurate your Garmin device is, and even less with a phone app (where both the app developer and the hardware provider can introduce error).

I agree with you about phone apps - not because the hardware is any worse, which it generally isn't, but because you have an unknown app developer. Not the case for Garmin devices. You might not get a calibration certificate with one, but fundamentally they're very accurate, far more accurate than car speedos which is the whole point (I have to admit this debate reminds me a bit of those arguing against DRS in cricket, where they say it needs to be 100% accurate before use, ignoring that without it the accuracy is far worse than that). I own and have owned numerous GPS devices - Garmin, Magellan, Suunto, Tomtom and have also used others including professional ones which do come with certificates - they're all remarkably consistent with each other, crucially without the systematic error you get with a speedo. Sure you get some variation, but I'm certainly not suggesting relying on a GPS for instant speed - the long term accuracy is as gobuchul says.

I often see 10% difference claimed but I've tried it in a few cars and always see much less. I think it's actually a bit of a dangerous Internet myth which added to things like the acpo guidance seems to mean people think it is "safe" * to drive at an indicated 73 in a 60.

I agree with you here - in fact I've already said as much, based both on checking my speedo with GPS and before that was available I checked the speedo in my previous car with a stopwatch and the odometer (odometer calibrated using motorway marker posts). Both methods agree with each other, and also confirmed by feedback from roadside automatic speed signs (which I presume do have some calibration). Error can be between 0% and 10% over, but IME it's normally nearer 0%.

Now I am sure you can validate your speedo using the GPS if you are careful about it, but I remain sceptical that it is a good idea. if you want to run on the limit it might be worth bearing in mind that the speedo changes slightly with tyre wear.

Personally I like to have all available info. Those who haven't checked (note I'm not claiming calibration - I've done that for other things, and what I've done with my car speedo isn't that) their speedo are probably the ones assuming 10% over-reading, something I know isn't happening. Tyre wear makes a tiny difference to calibration, only about 2% over the full range of tyre wear, or in other words ~1/2mph at 30mph, which is less than the normal resolution of a speedo.

[quote=footflaps ]Nope, they don't even check if it's working as a friend's car just passed and her Speedo has been broken for several years.....

As I pointed out earlier in the thread, they might not check it at MOT, but she is breaking the law driving it like that.

GPS may not be perfect, but over various phones with different chips and some using the Russian satellites, they've all read 5mph over my speedo in the same car. If not accurate, they're consistent. Also the "your speed" signs at the side of the road tend to agree. In a 30 if I drive 35 I don't trigger those signs, above 35 on the speedo and the sign flashes up that I'm over 30. Of course those signs may not be accurate 😉

As for caught by a gun or a static camera, a vast amount of the static cameras don't really work (Surrey stretch of M25 cameras are now an exception 😉 ), though they might flash, just they aren't set up to record. Historically due to lack of film, though with digital they might work but not sure many will have been upgraded. Cop at the speed awareness course basically said this is generally the case, but of course you never know which ones are active. He said the main bulk of fines will come from speed guns. Also mentioned that the average speed check cameras aren't used for fines, purely for traffic control. Maybe just in that virtually no one speeds in an average speed check.

Other thing is if you've been flashed or seen a guy with the speed gun, wait 14 days for the letter. If nothing, then you're in the clear as they must serve a NIP in 14 days. If you actually got stopped and get a talking to then you get the NIP or on the spot fine at that point.

but she is breaking the law driving it like that.

Like 99.9% of drivers give a shit! As far as I can tell, just about everyone speeds, talks on the phone or jumps lights at some point on their drive to work.

[quote=deadkenny ]As for caught by a gun or a static camera, a vast amount of the static cameras don't really work, though they might flash, just they aren't set up to record. Historically due to lack of film, though with digital they might work but not sure many will have been upgraded. Cop at the speed awareness course basically said this is generally the case, but of course you never know which ones are active. He said the main bulk of fines will come from speed guns. Also mentioned that the average speed check cameras aren't used for fines, purely for traffic control.

By guns do you mean mobile cameras (given your mention of a guy with a gun, I'm not sure you do)? Years since I've seen a guy with a gun, I'd expect the number caught that way are tiny. I don't have any evidence on fixed cameras, but understood they'd mostly been upgraded, and have certainly seen plenty of reports of them catching people.

I think all the last bit proves is that they tell lies at speed awareness courses. I've seen plenty of reports (including official ones) of people being done by those.

I've checked speedos on many cars with many devies, and most of them came to *around* -10% which suggests to me that they are aiming for that figure.

Also, in the Passat I reset the speedo on a quiet motorway, drive at indicated 70mph for a couple of hours wihtout slowing down, and the average speed reads 63mph. I think the car knows the true distance travelled, for the odometer, so it seems to be a deliberate design.

Interestingly enough, the Prius has a self calibrating speedo based on the built-in GPS, so if you change wheel size or they wear you can reset it. And yet when you do, it still reads 10% under, which also suggests it's deliberate.

I've also noticed that they do NOT do this in the USA - so when you marvel at how normal cars seem to have poor MPG, take into consideration that you might be travelling 10% faster - 70mph on their speedos is closer to travelling at 80mph on a UK speedo.

Yeah, mobile cameras I meant.

I've been flashed by a few static cameras with no result but was more than 5 years ago. Only time I've ever been caught is a mobile van. Sneakily hidden on a bridge just behind a gantry on the M4 in Wales coming up to the tolls. I forget what it was, 63 I think in a 50 so got offered the awareness course.

The M25 ones are still only a portion of them active. Mainly just the Surrey stretch I believe. They've never been active until recently.

so when you marvel at how normal cars seem to have poor MPG,

The main difference for MPG between the US and the UK will be that the US gallon is 20% smaller than an imperial gallon and the octane rating is lower meaning that there is effectively less energy per unit volume. Speed variations will be minor in comparison to this.

The main difference for MPG between the US and the UK will be that the US gallon is 20% smaller than an imperial gallon

The main difference for MPG between the US and the UK will be that the US gallon is 20% smaller than an imperial gallon

I am aware of that also 🙂

Car speedo's vary widely - my Mercedes seems to be almost exactly right (compared to the GPS) but all our other cards under-read by about 3mph or so.

I trust the speed the Satnav shows more than I trust the speedo.

Years since I've seen a guy with a gun, I'd expect the number caught that way are tiny.

Loads of em in Hampshire, but in the main they are doing concerted speed awareness campaigns - targeting a road and pulling people in for a stern talking too. I don't think (judging by the speed of change of people) they were ticketing, but more making a point. Certainly has worked in the village I'm thinking of, you get the person on your number plate through it, but the majority of traffic takes it very steady now.

Lots of speed awareness cameras in France. They tell you your speed and also suggest there might be a radar a bit further up the road.

My Fiat Ducato over read by at least 4km/h whatever the speed once the needle moved, on my Peugeot 605 the needle was just over real speed and my Current Dacia over reads by 3-4km/h at low speeds and then a fairly consistent 5%.

I reckon the temporary (?) displays that are sometimes set up at the roadside to show your speed are pretty accurate (it would be very odd if they were set up to be consistently biased, though of course some of them may be wrong). They give consistent results of roughly 10% below what is indicated on the speedo for me - at least around the 30-40mph mark.

Also, after boasting recently here of never being caught speeding...I have a speed awareness course for 37 in a 30. I thought it was 40, honest, and googling reveals that the road actually used to be 40, though it was changed a few years ago after some drunk got mown down outside a pub (by a driver doing about 50). I wasn't near the pub or indeed any other likely source of pedestrians, the bit of road where I got caught has a wide grassy verge separating the road from the (empty) pavement. Anyway, I will go on the course with an open mind...