Oh dear 😕
Doesn't say whether they fell or what but this is terrible.
I hope nobody here.
https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/scottish-news/three-hillwalkers-found-dead-glencoe-30646934
Grim, it's pretty unforgiving terrain that.
That's terrible news 😔
Roped together I guess. One fell and pulled the other two off. Terrible.
Roped together I guess. One fell and pulled the other two off. Terrible.
Yep, most likely explanation.
Some big exposure on that ridge.
Whats the ridge like compared to Crib goch?
Condolences to the families as well - three fatalities together is very rare.
Much, much harder grade of scrambling and exposure combined make it <span style="font-size: 0.8rem;"> a completely different league</span>
Awful news for the individuals, thier families and the MRT/Police involved.
I await more information from reliable sources.
Aonach Eagach - long, sustained, a lot of 'challenges' through the day, interspersed with easy sections, a couple of challenging sections technically and risk wise. Mrs_oab fell off...
Crib Goch - shorter, less sustained, arguably one bit as challenging, but generally clear route.
Heard the helicopter out Saturday night/Sunday morning (camping in Glencoe). Wondered what was going on. Bugger. Assuming given the terrain they knew what they were doing and this was just (very) bad luck rather than being unprepared.
matt_outandabout
Full Member
Aonach Eagach – long, sustained, a lot of ‘challenges’ through the day, interspersed with easy sections, a couple of challenging sections technically and risk wise.
Then add in that conditions on Saturday were pretty horrible
The weather around there on Saturday was absolutely horrendous. We drove through about 6pm and it was pretty much zero visibility on the peaks, biblical rain and very cold.
Yeah, rain most of the day and I'd assume much windier higher up.
My money's on a Clachaig Gully descent gone wrong.
Just looking at the photos makes me feel queasy, there’s nothing could make me even attempt to climb that. I heard about it on the news earlier, and I’d imagined it was pretty challenging terrain, but not as bad as that. My condolences to the families of the bereaved.
Loads of videos on YouTube if you want a better idea.
montgomery
Full Member
My money’s on a Clachaig Gully descent gone wrong.
I would like to think a guide wouldn’t have taken them down the gulley,it was more dangerous than the ridge.I came down it a few years ago for old times sake and it was worse than I remember it before the bypass.
I would like to think a guide wouldn’t have taken them down the gulley
Were they with a guide? Haven't seen that reported although I've only scanned stuff.
Were they with a guide? Haven’t seen that reported although I’ve only scanned stuff.
There's *RUMOR* that is a guide and two customers.
I'd assumed not given the weather. A competent guide would know when not to go up. I won't speculate further.
I won’t speculate further.
This.
Stuff written here is for perpetuity.
Condolences to the families. It's a horrible thing to have happened.
Roped together I guess. One fell and pulled the other two off
Not an extreme walker, so given the pictures of the terrain above why would you rope up when the chance of falling seems quite high. Presumably unless you’re braced and ready (which is going to be harder to do when walking as opposed to climbing) you’re going to struggle to arrest the progress of anyone falling and just putting yourself at risk.
I did it in the nineties when I was a scrambling freak. I honestly don’t remember the difficulty and exposure of the ridge proper but I sure as hell remember the Clachaig Gully descent. Fierce.
Really sad to hear this. Not something you expect to hear of at this time of year. I’ve walked over the ridge a few times and always thought it best avoided in severe/wet weather. There’s a race going over the ridge next month. Hopefully organisers take note and amend the route if very wet.
Moving together when roped up is common, kilo. I've only ever done it with one other person. The most experinced climber anticipates difficulties and gives more or less rope to be in a position to hold the other climber on difficult moves. On ridges (praticularly snow-corniced ridges) the climbers can agree to go right or left if the other bod goes down so they're left hanging over the ridge. Obviously it's not perfect but there's safety in speed and if you pitch every inch with belays it takes an eternity. It's down to what you feel happy and confident with and sometimes even the most experienced people make mistakes.
Went along that on a school trip. A fantastic scramble on a good day.
Went along that on a school trip
Blimey, can you imagine the risk assessment for that now? In the old days, the enthusiastic Geography teacher with beard, holey wooly jumper and a pair of RD Superguides was sufficient insurance...
As always, great fun when it goes to plan but the penalty for failure is very high even with a guide/roped up. I thought it might be a bit wet and windy with Antonio going through but obviously can't really tell from Cambs.
Poor sods 😔
In slightly nicer conditions:
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I did it in the nineties when I was a scrambling freak.
Similar - I soloed it in mid Aug 88 when I was young/fit/climbing reasonably well and had a good head for heights. Don't recall any particular problems on the ridge itself once the overnight dampness had dried off it, but avoided adding to the already badly-eroded Clach Gully descent by walking a bit further along the ridge towards the Pap, and then coming down to the back lane from there. Was staying at the Red Squirrel campsite, so it delivered me more or less straight back to the tent. A very long day, given that I'd failed to hitch a lift, and ended up walking up the main road to Altnafeadh and the WHW to start with.
All sympathies to the families of the climbers involved here, it's very sad.
Blimey, can you imagine the risk assessment for that now?
With the right group, ratio and right person leading, that is within remit of many. It is not *required* to use a rope, so arguably within Mountain Leader (Summer or Winter) level.
Blimey, can you imagine the risk assessment for that now?
It's a fairly easy route by climbing / scrambling standards. Guides do much harder technical stuff day in / day out.
I've only ever done it in winter and it was technically very easy (Grade 1), but big exposure in many places - one slip in the wrong place and it's game over.
so arguably within Mountain Leader (Summer or Winter) level.
I would say well beyond Winter ML, definite MIC territory. Hardest thing we did for Winter ML was Fiacall ridge in Cairngorms, which is *much* tamer.
Never done it in summer, so can't comment.
I would say well beyond Winter ML, definite MIC territory. Hardest thing we did for Winter ML was Fiacall ridge in Cairngorms, which is *much* tamer.
Yes, you are correct. With ice and snow it is another game entirely.
We weren't roped, no idea about formal qualifications for teachers but they were keen and experienced hillwalkers. I don't think it was really *challenging* but certainly exhilarating. We also did things like the Cuillin ridge including the In Pinn with an abseil off the top, which was the only time the rope got used on the hills. The outdoor trips were probably the highlight of my schooling which I didn't enjoy greatly for the most part.
With the right group, ratio and right person leading, that is within remit of many. It is not *required* to use a rope, so arguably within Mountain Leader (Summer or Winter) level.
I half wondered whether it was an candidate, in training I know of a few who are really trying to rack up the practice days prior to assessments due fairly soon.
We also did things like the Cuillin ridge including the In Pinn with an abseil off the top, which was the only time the rope got used on the hills. The outdoor trips were probably the highlight of my schooling which I didn’t enjoy greatly for the most part.
I think the TD gap is the hardest bit, IIRC, you abseil in and if you then can't climb back out, you're a bit screwed. IIRC Climb was only VDiff or something, but very cold, wet, greasy and in the middle of nowhere up a mountain made it seem way harder at the time!
It’s an incredibly sad situation.
Having done the ridge 5 times (twice in Winter and three times in summer) it is not for the faint hearted especially on the pinnacles.
My heart goes out to those lost and the families as well as friends remaining.
And the MR who had to do the recovery too. You sign up to volunteer knowing that's a likely task you'll have to do, but I suspect it has quite an impact.
Always gives me the willies does stuff like this, having lost pals in Glencoe. I haven't really done much in Glencoe as a result, but that's for personal reasons not because it's inherently unsafe. I know what their friends and families are going through and it's not fun.
Awful reading about this. Must be very difficult for the families that are left.
Really sad.
I walked the Aonach Eagach solo back in the day. A great day out in fine summer weather. I don't always have a great head for heights, but found it pretty straightforward as long as you stay on the right line. Easy to get off the usual route and get into trouble very quickly, even in good vis. On the other hand, Clachaig Gully is grim. I'd done it before and remembered it being not too bad, so happily went down it again after doing the ridge and it was very, very unpleasant. Much more exposed feeling than the ridge. Nothing difficult, but all the rock is downward sloping, exposed and, on the day, covered in loose grit that felt like ball-bearings.
Back when I did my ML I remember the AE ridge being frequently talked-about as the absolute bleeding-edge of ML terrain. In good conditions, with confident clients, maybe OK. In non-perfect conditions, no.
RIP and condolences to the families.
Times like this I'm happy to have an extreme fear of heights. Watched the video on my TV and looked terrifying.
There's a bit about 18/19 minutes into that video I linked above where I recall looking just below me and seeing a couple of sheep grazing the narrow ledges. I remember thinking "there must be easier grass to get to!!!"
I live in Glencoe, didn’t hear a thing overnight which is bizarre. The rescue chopper normally wakes me up.
Absolutely terrible news for those involved, the families and the rescue personnel.
Now confirmed as a 39 year old guide from the area, a 60 year old man and 64 year old woman. Accidents can happen even to the most experienced.
Condolences to all the families.
Oh no. Just terrible.
Condolences to all affected.
It is a grade 2 scramble. Scrambling isn't within the remit of ML. The only ropework in ML is using a confidence rope. Scrambling requires a rope which is rated for climbing/harnesses and some gear. MCI is required for scrambling (formerly MIA).
I've been following YouTube channel 'Scottish Munro journey' and it turns out the guide Dave Fowler was the one from in the Skye , In Pin episode
That is terrible news - I had met Dave Fowler a couple of times, he was well respected and known in mountain circles in Scotland.
I await the formal reports before I consider too much more, but I am sure the lessons to be learned will be much discussed then.
Really horrible news all all round. Just goes to show that accidents can happen to even the most experienced. An awful job for the rescue team too.
The Fatal Accident Inquiry report was published yesterday. There’s probably no major surprises in the basic findings - they were all roped together and appears one of them has slipped/fallen and taken the others with them as particularly tricky part of the route.
Expert witness evidence doesn’t really identify specific failings but the inquiry (which somewhat unusually was presided over by a Sheriff who is on a MRT so understands the setting better than most) noted that they couldn’t find evidence of somethings which might be considered best practice - of course the only three people who know if they were done or even considered are unable to explain.
whilst many of those who play in the hills will read the press reports they perhaps won’t know where to find the full determination:
and I suspect those who do make it that far may not make it all the way through, the report highlights some interesting points about preparation for such trips with unknown clients, footwear, briefing of the clients and assessment of competence before getting to the point of no return.
The sheriff adopted the words of one of the experts witnesses, and whilst he stresses this is a matter for professionals guiding others in the mountains, I think the thinking points are actually just as relevant to groups of unknown “friends” and whilst talking here about scrambles could just as easily be about mountain biking or other adventurous pursuits:
“29. However, it is my view that meeting clients for the very first time immediately before beginning a venture like the Aonach Eagach increases the pressure on the leader. There is very little time to evaluate the clients and their equipment and very little opportunity to change the plan. It is very difficult for the leader to alter or cancel the venture when clients have travelled a long way for a single day excursion.
30. In my view, a better plan would be to meet the clients the day before and to undertake a short familiarization trip. This would give the leader an opportunity to assess the clients’ abilities and to introduce the techniques that would be used on the traverse of the Aonach Eagach. It would also provide an opportunity to make any changes to their equipment should they be required.”
The crux being
"69 This (the accident) was not an outcome that resulted from want of
reasonable precautions. It was, instead, a terrible accident that occurred despite
all reasonable precautions being taken, reinforcing the immutable fact that the
inherent risks of mountaineering, however mitigated, can never be entirely
eliminated.”
I've never done any proper climbing (I did a few days abseiling as part of army cadets though, and climbing back to the top of the quarry for another go was definitely the shitter part of the equation - I have the mass and flexibility that is far more suited to downward directed enjoyment)
So this might be totally obvious to climbers but not to me (and apologies if insensitive to the accident but it was now some time ago). But what's the point of being roped together on a really exposed ridge like that. If someone falls, you have the length of rope in time terms to do what? My maths head can't work out how the momentum of a falling person can be arrested by someone on an unstable footing like that ridge, where even being pulled a few feet would see you falling as well? Is there some sort of buffering device so you don't get such a sudden jerk?
The idea, to paraphrase Whymper*, is that if one falls into Strathclyde the other jumps across to Highland..
Or, more realistically, the leader can place occasional bits of gear as they proceed, to provide some security. Or stop and set up a (proper ) belay when they find a trickier bit ( with the other two already tied on)
* Probably not Whymper, but someone else.
Indeed the theory is that
a) folk don't jump, they slip or need an extra pull up. That actually is manageable and quick to do with a short rope, particularly if it's just draped behind boulders or guide takes string stances
b) if you're on a really challenging section, a good system will allow you to drop a load more rope out between guide and client(s) and set up a ground or body belay combined with rope behind boulders etc, so being able to cope with a more sudden or heavier fall
c) if desperate, prepare to jump off the opposite side of a ridge. This of course does not work if you can't reach the other side, if things happen suddenly or you've not got the minerals. Pretty desperate stuff really.
The crux being
"69 This (the accident) was not an outcome that resulted from want of
reasonable precautions. It was, instead, a terrible accident that occurred despite
all reasonable precautions being taken, reinforcing the immutable fact that the
inherent risks of mountaineering, however mitigated, can never be entirely
eliminated.”
you have quoted from the submission made by the crown rather than from the conclusions drawn by the sheriff. He said:
“[116] The Crown, in concluding their submissions, stated that “the inherent risks of mountaineering, however mitigated, can never be eliminated”. Submissions for West Coast Mountain Guides were in similar terms. It should be clear from my detailed consideration of the first possible scenario that I do not whole-heartedly adopt this somewhat fatalistic attitude. Nonetheless my concluding that no possible section 26(2)(e) or (f) findings arose from the second and third scenarios does mean that,on the basis of the evidence led in this Inquiry, I have to accept that there are specific risks, particular to the practice of short roping, that cannot be reasonably eliminated.”
30. In my view, a better plan would be to meet the clients the day before and to undertake a short familiarization trip. This would give the leader an opportunity to assess the clients’ abilities and to introduce the techniques that would be used on the traverse of the Aonach Eagach. It would also provide an opportunity to make any changes to their equipment should they be required.”
That would likely make such guiding unaffordable and put many guides out of business, so it ain't gonna happen.
Thanks for posting this, it's sobering stuff.
30. In my view, a better plan would be to meet the clients the day before and to undertake a short familiarization trip. This would give the leader an opportunity to assess the clients’ abilities and to introduce the techniques that would be used on the traverse of the Aonach Eagach. It would also provide an opportunity to make any changes to their equipment should they be required.”
That would likely make such guiding unaffordable and put many guides out of business, so it ain't gonna happen.
Organisation representing guides were participants in the inquiry and expert witnesses (experienced mountain instructors) gave evidence, if commercial viability was discussed it didn’t make it to the report. Assuming that all reputable guides adopted such an approach it would increase the cost of a single trip - but I don’t know how price sensitive the cost of a guide is? However the report does outline alternatives which might go someway to mitigating the risk.
I've never done any proper climbing (I did a few days abseiling as part of army cadets though, and climbing back to the top of the quarry for another go was definitely the shitter part of the equation - I have the mass and flexibility that is far more suited to downward directed enjoyment)
So this might be totally obvious to climbers but not to me (and apologies if insensitive to the accident but it was now some time ago). But what's the point of being roped together on a really exposed ridge like that. If someone falls, you have the length of rope in time terms to do what? My maths head can't work out how the momentum of a falling person can be arrested by someone on an unstable footing like that ridge, where even being pulled a few feet would see you falling as well? Is there some sort of buffering device so you don't get such a sudden jerk?
I used to “proper climb” quite a lot. I have never short roped (mostly because I was climbing not scrambling). I know people who did with claims that if required they would use the sort of bravado MOAB and the generalist describe of client falls left you jump right. I’ve never been convinced reaction times were fast enough, weight differences workable, balls big enough, or ropes going to appreciate a rapid dynamic movement across rough rock. It’s notable that neither of the expert witnesses seem to have suggested that leap off the other side is expected course of action. I dare say, someone somewhere has pulled it off, perhaps in winter. The short rope technique as explained to me 30 odd years ago was consistent with that in the FAI - it was not a “fall arrest” technique but rather a short taught rope that stops a slip becoming a fall.
I have some rock climbing experience but have never short roped. Climbing with friends of equal ability the risks seemed to out weight the benefits. If the ground was hard enough a rope was required we used belay.
" it was a matter of agreement that, as gleaned from the post mortem
examinations, David Fowler weighed 57 kilograms, Hazel Crombie 52 kilograms and
Graham Cox 90 kilograms."
I have held a fall on an ice pitch As leader I was holding my second of similar weight and I was belaying from a decent stance belayed to a dead man. As he was having trouble the fall was expected and the rope had no slack.
The idea of potentially having to hold an unexpected fall whilst not belayed and with a combined weight more than double mine below me on the rope is not attractive.
Buy I am obviously not an expert and people vastly more qualified than me think it us OK.
What does “As leader I was holding my second of similar weight and I was belaying from a decent stance belayed to a dead man” mean? TIA.
What does “As leader I was holding my second of similar weight and I was belaying from a decent stance belayed to a dead man” mean? TIA.
I was above the person who fell. There was almost no slack in the rope. I was reasonably secure. A deadman is an aluminium plate which is stuck into hard snow as a belay. so when my friends weight came on the rope there was no sudden shock and I could not be pulled of my feet as I was clipped onto the deadman
https://helixoperations.com/products/deadman
A German winter climbing pal of mine had some trouble coming through customs with a "deadman" .
They asked what's in the rucksack , he told them...he spent 3 hours in a back office
That was almost 35 years ago now I lived in Glencoe at the time . I never really enjoyed doing the Aonach Eagach as I didn't like how busy it was in summer, and it was at the absolute limit of my abilities in winter conditions
I've had a chance to read the report and the recent bits of the thread and thought I'd offer my thoughts.
Firstly, this is obviously a desperately sad story and also a really, really unusual occurrence.
I think the idea of 'short roping' is key to understanding the report. It's actually a pretty complicated thing and the report goes into quite a lot of detail about what it entails.
It can involve different techniques that provide different levels of security. Although people might use similar techniques in their personal climbing it's very different from what a guide would do with clients.
On straightforward, relatively low-consequence terrain, it might just involve the guide being above the clients and keeping the rope tight to them. The idea here is not to arrest a fall but to prevent one happening in the first place. On steeper ground, rudimentary belays can be made by running the rope over spikes or around blocks to provide additional security. It also makes it very easy to set up a proper belay to protect clients on short sections of more difficult ground. The 'short rope' element of it refers to the fact that not all the rope is employed but how much rope there is between guide and client(s) will vary from a few metres to maybe 15m+.
Deciding which of the above to do is a pretty complicated thing and one of the expert witnesses noted that it was one of the challenging aspects of this sort of guiding. All of this is a trade off between speed and security. By moving in this way, you sacrifice some security for speed.
It should never involve anyone having to hurl themselves off the opposite side of a ridge!
Reading back through this thread, and looking at the various photos has just reinforced my lack of any sort of desire to go climbing anything like this, at any time. It’s not that I haven’t got a head for heights, it’s just that I prefer to have the depths safely set on the other side of a secure barrier! 😖
I have seen guides on the snow arete from the Aiguille du Midi with all the clients descending, roped together, in front of the Guide. The Guide is last in the line, HOLDING on to the last 50cm of the rope. Not tied in.
These actually weren't climbers either! Skiers, in ski boots, with poles in one hand, and skis in the other.
This was 1990s, not recently.
Assuming that all reputable guides adopted such an approach it would increase the cost of a single trip - but I don’t know how price sensitive the cost of a guide is?
If every one-day of guiding requires a prior day of assessing competence then the cost will double. There will also be fewer guides available. Both of those factors are likely to lead to folk not bothering with guides and then possibly doing the route without, leading to an increase in accidents.
* Probably not Whymper, but someone else.
I have no idea whether Whymper said anything about jumping off ridges. He did say this though and it's worth remembering:
"Climb if you will, but remember that courage and strength are nought without prudence, and that a momentary negligence may destroy the happiness of a lifetime. Do nothing in haste; look well to each step; and from the beginning think what may be the end."
It's also worth remembering that the fatal accident on the descent from the Matterhorn was due to one person falling off and knocking or dragging the other three off.
Jebus, that and Crib Goch are scary - no way would I go up there.
I have seen guides on the snow arete from the Aiguille du Midi with all the clients descending, roped together, in front of the Guide.
I came up that roped to a mate at the end of a long day. The "you go one way, I'll go the other" is in your mind, but the reality is that you should be carrying coils and ready to shove the shaft of your axe into the snow. The view of Chamonix swimming pool several thousand feet down grabbed my attention. But... in terms of alpinism that's a stroll in the park.
Of course, on rock you can't use an axe for arrest.
the saying I'm familiar with is "if I fall into Italy, you jump into France". Wasn't aware it was whymper, but he did first assents like Grandes Jorasses, so completely plausible. Not something I ever had to do. 😀
Assuming that all reputable guides adopted such an approach it would increase the cost of a single trip - but I don’t know how price sensitive the cost of a guide is?
If every one-day of guiding requires a prior day of assessing competence then the cost will double. There will also be fewer guides available. Both of those factors are likely to lead to folk not bothering with guides and then possibly doing the route without, leading to an increase in accidents.
I understand your point, but I don’t think the sheriff was necessarily suggesting a whole day (elsewhere in the discussion one of the experts said this would be the ideal but if it wasn’t possible you need to be asking a lot more about experience, plans, weight, kit etc than is probably common).
I don’t know how many people get a guide for the AE now? Perhaps more would if the impression was not that anyone can just turn up and guide is showing them the way. I also don’t know how many people guide on the AE with people they’ve never met / worked with before?
it’s probably unlikely that guides are going to change their approach significantly - but perhaps some will ask more questions and if they don’t like the answers propose a “practice day” after all it’s not “just” the client who dies if people get it wrong or have overstated their ability. The point is “the mountains are dangerous and sometimes people die” doesn’t invite anyone to reflect on how to make it less likely.
I've seen a roped pair where one has fallen and the other arrested the fall, that was with ice axe and crampons...had it not worked I would 100% seen two people die .. it was a hell of a long way down to the glacier off that ridge
Jebus, that and Crib Goch are scary - no way would I go up there.
Reality is that most of the ridge is not that scary, and that most images that show huge fear/drop/scary are filmed from angles to maximise.
Here is a more useful set of images - a few key steep or narrow bits, with easy bits in between. Very sustained.
https://www.flickr.com/gp/matt_outandabout/04e1R153H5
The point is “the mountains are dangerous and sometimes people die” doesn’t invite anyone to reflect on how to make it less likely.
This is the crux of things for me
I want to learn. I want to be safer.
But I'm also prepared to take judged risks to do what I enjoy.
The point is “the mountains are dangerous and sometimes people die” doesn’t invite anyone to reflect on how to make it less likely.
If I'm reading it correctly that was pretty much the crown's line but not the Sheriff's.