Forum menu
Which is more environmentally friendly over it's life cycle?
Defender,
I believe the toyotas batteries raw materials from Canada then shipped to holland then japan then back with the car to the e.u don't do it much good on the green front before it turns a wheel,
pulls up a chair and waits for the tree huggers
Oops, best look at Molgrips posts on the depression thread, lads..
Lifecycle of a secondhand vehicle doesn't make much sense to me.
I'll bet all that Birmabrite in the land rover body took some fair old energy, from its extraction from bauxite to being pressed in to body panels, to be fair
can we carry on about depression in this thread as the other one has been hijacked ?
U31 - MemberI'll bet all that Birmabrite in the land rover body took some fair old energy, from its extraction from bauxite to being pressed in to body panels, to be fair
Ah, but that had happened when the thing was built, you can't change that, you can however, choose not to buy a Prius and prevent the thing being built.
However, I bet most of these still go
[img] 
[/img]
U31, the point of this thread is that the Defender is second hand so doens't have any enviromental impact being created. It takes a huge amount of enrgy to produce a new car, It is much greener to run cars to a high mileage and vehicles such as landrovers are made out of simple easy to split parts that are perfect for reuse and recyling when they finally die.
It really makes me sick how many perfectly usable cars are destined to be scrapped under the scrappage scheme. Should have been stripped of all usefull parts to help keep more cars going with no extra enviromental impact.
And what happens when the Prius' batteries need replacing in 7 years time? Huge cost and huge recycycling resources
The Defender was new once, wasn't it?
Only thing different in a Prius is a battery, (which isn't that big) and they are made from recycled and recyclable materials.
Poor troll.
And what happens when the Prius' batteries need replacing in 7 years time?
They don't.
So what is the original purchaser gonna drive?
Or do you suggest we wait till they cork it, and get issued the car upon death, on some form of roster?
If Defender has less than 45,000 miles on it then in effect it is Carbon Neutral as Land Rover make environmental contributions to cover the CO2 emissions.
See [url= http://http://www.landrover.com/gb/en/lr/owners/co2-offsetting/co2-offsetting/ ]here[/url]
Bit of a sop to the environmental lobby I suspect but it does exist.
It really makes me sick how many perfectly usable cars are destined to be scrapped under the scrappage scheme. Should have been stripped of all usefull parts to help keep more cars going with no extra enviromental impact.
Did you see that 'Scort mk2 in the advert for scrapping untaxed cars on top of the pile? Cryin' shame
Don't forget to factor in that u need to replace the paper bag u will be wearing
on ur head at regular intervals if u buy a Prius.!
Has anyone here actually ran a second hand deafener?
Off the top of my head, to keep em running (and mine wernt particularly punished off road... that really DOES make em break!) you needed at least once a year, to change...
CV joints, drive flanges, drive flange gaskets, drive flange caps, universal joints on both prop shafts, half shafts, front differentials, diesel lift pumps, shocker bushes, hockey stick bushes, axle bushes, rear radius arm bushes, both chassis and axle end. Fuel tanks rotted out with alarming regularity unless you bought a Canadian pattern part that was galved, the front shock mount towers on non air suspension models rotted out for fun, and every year you were gaurunteed to break the welder out to repair either the bulkhead or chassis for MOT..
Oops, i almost forgot the rear brake pads jumping out, needing new calipers and discs, front disc used to wear out fairly quick too on vented types
Assuming the cars were both brought new and drove the same milage and were scrapped upon the same day, possibly the Landrover. The Prius is a Jekyl and Hyde mish mash, as someone quite rightly pointed out the nickel in the battery is produced in Canada then shipped to Holland and then sent to Japan. The Area around the factory were the nickel is produced is heavily polluted due to the conecntration of toxic materials.
If you looked at the newer Lithium Ion battery powered Prius, you would need to question were the electricity is coming from that recharges the battery. The generation of cleaner electricity is the point to be addressed with coal production being more harmful than emissions.
I have said it before and will say it again the T25 and T27 city cars are/will fulfil what the prius didnt. The lightness and physical practicality of the vehicles (takes less power to charge than a prius), combined with thier ability to be recycled efficently and safer, ability to be produced in one factory which can also double as a show room (no delivery times) is what i think city centres need right now.
Only thing different in a Prius is a battery, (which isn't that big) and they are made from recycled and recyclable materials.
Recycled lithium? really?
So the batteries are made completely from recycled materials?
I thought it all came out of a mine in sudbury, canada which to be fair is no longer highly polluted and has even won environmental awards I believe.
The Defender has alloy body panels, if you think that the Prius's batteries have travelled, try seeing aluminium's.
Probably:
Jamaica (bauxite) to
Canada (alumina then ingot, possibly same site) to
Germany (rolling) to
Wales (more rolling) to
England (extrusion/pressing)
at the least, and if they use re-melt then god-knows.
The one that's only used when it's really needed.
Behavioural changes will probably make more difference than technological.
The one that's only used when it's really needed.Behavioural changes will probably make more difference than technological.
Ladies and gents, we have our winner!
Bet you cant fix a prius with a sledgehammer...
Bet you cant fix a landie with one either
You can, or at least you can suitably reshape parts of the suspension to a point it's driveable and goes through the next MOT without further work...
If you looked at the newer Lithium Ion battery powered Prius,
It's not Lithium Ion powered.
I have said it before and will say it again the T25 and T27 city cars are/will fulfil what the prius didnt.
Prius is a family saloon, not a city car. Apples and oranges.
The real reason it exists is that environmental legislation prevents (or has prevented) diesels from being popular in the USA, so everyone drives petrols. The Prius is much more economical than the petrol alternatives available there.
Behavioural changes will probably make more difference than technological.
+100
Forgive me if I'm wrong but I read somewere there was a new Prius due late 2010 early 2011 with a Lithium battery, panasonic have been given the task of producing the battery in partnership with Toyota as thier factory will fulfil the green ideal. Solar powered etc... I don't want to sound like I'm knocking the Prius by any means, it just seems a bit of a mix to me.
I agree the Prius isn't specifically designed for city driving but having seen it used often to lower the city centre charges drivers face, it's often seen as a solution that it was not specifically designed for. Comparing a Landrover and a Prius seemed like apples and oranges to begin with, that's why I started my original post suggesting that the two vehicles be compared on a basis of being made and scrapped on the same day etc...
You can, or at least you can suitably reshape parts of the suspension to a point it's driveable and goes through the next MOT without further work...
Remind me never to accept a lift in your car!
You are [url= http://www.google.co.uk/search?q=nigel+gresham&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-GB:official&client=firefox-a ] Gresh [/url] and i claim my £5!!
Listening to people in the know the environmental advantage of the Defender is how few miles it will accumulate with it's gas guzzling enginedue to how often/long it will be in a garage. The downside of course is all the new parts it will need and the carbon cost of manufacture and transport of the parts.
I would also say don't confuse a Defender with a Land Rover. Defenders/Freeloaders are luxury cars not simple utility vehicles as were the original Landies. How many WAGS do you see driving round Cheshire in real Land Rovers?
...didn't know it was still produced as a saloon? But a more practical 5dr?
The Defender will still be around when the Pious is present in the form of 200 baked bean tins and a pile of nasty Li.
A Defender isnt a luxury vehicle...
Its a workhorse pure and simple. The newer Tata built ones are not so much with thier air con and electric windows and transit derived engines, but a TD5 110 Defender aint got much in the way of creature comforts.
Of the Disco I believe you are thinking.
Have you heard the story, i think it goes (figure is for arguments sake and may not be accurate) 60% of land rovers ever built are still on the road today?
The real truth behind it is that a massive massive percentage of land rovers quoted thus have been built in the last 5 years due to increased production so doesnt include all the 80" 86" 107" 88" and 109" that have gracefully rotted in to the ground.
Lies. Damn lies. statistics.
The real reason it exists is that environmental legislation prevents (or has prevented) diesels from being popular in the USA, so everyone drives petrols.
I thought it's actually the poor quality diesel that is sold in the US that's the problem. The legislation is not that stringent, but the emmissions are too high even from modern efficient diesel engines because of the 'dirty' fuel.
Neither is that great. Get a second hand Toyota Yaris or other supermini if you actually want to buy a car and make sure it is as environmentally friendly* as possible.
*Environmentally friendly car 😆 Oxymoron alert.
Do you actually go off-road though?!
I thought it's actually the poor quality diesel that is sold in the US that's the problem.
Not any more. They used to have loads of sulphur in their diesel, but it's all low sulphur now. The problem is with NOx emissions which cause smog, and are an unavoidable characteristic of compression-ignition engines. The US versions of the VW TDIs have to have a small chemical plant in the exhaust system to scrub out the NOx. You think our DPFs and cats are complicated, read up on theirs!
Do you actually go off-road though?!
I did, but not playing about at getting stuck on the mary townley loop, pretending i was in the camel trophy, like most of the grossly overweight offroaders do.
I had a farm. I visited farms, often unpaved access. I towed 3 tonne trailers.
AFAIK scrappage doesn't mean that the parts can't be re-used. My daughter needed a gearbox for her Polo last week, and I was told there's loads of cheap second hand ones around due to Scrappage.
For those who think that Bluemotion Passats are greener than Priuses:
Bluemotion Passat 64.2mpg CO2 115g/km NOx [b]138 mg/km[/b]
Prius 70.6mpg CO2 92g/km NOx [b]9 mg/km[/b]
That's not a typo. Super green Passat produces 15 times more smog-forming chemicals.
But Mol, what about At the point of manufacture?
You tell me.
Like I say, Priuses are made in a super-green solar powered factory. And the battery is not really very big, about 30kg or so. Consider that the whole car is up to 200kg lighter than a Passat, and that 200kg of extra stuff also has to be manufactured, I'm not sure about these wild claims for manufacturing energy costs.
And there this:
For the Prius, Toyota used a new range of plant-derived ecological bioplastics made from the cellulose in wood or grass instead of petroleum.
Oh and the Bluemotion Passat is 105bhp and the Prius 138bhp 🙂
Based on owning a (now) 17 yr old Defender for the last 7 years, and knowing enough people with new cars that are nothing but trouble - I'm going with Defender (heart over head perhaps tho').
Built to be fixed, and put straight back into service - can the same be said of modern cars I wonder?
Mine's a bit luckier than U31's it seems, as it's (touching wood) only big jobs have been a replacement fuel pump, damaged through water ingress when exceeding the wading depth (a bit), and a bit of work when the clutch springs went a a little tight and popped the slave-cylinder off the 'box (which was only held on by one bolt - the other having left to pursue an independent life earlier in time).
Other than that, it's just 'normal' service items, even the mpg is ok, and better than a lot of vehicles (Ok granted - spanking Aluminium out of Bauxite takes a lot of power, and old diesel engines = soot).
I'm not sure I'd fancy trying to fix a modern car that had died ...
I'd agree it is significantly down to behaviours tho'.
And im not certain alone that solar power could generate the energy requirements of an entire car plant. The assembly line, maybe, but its entirety?
And what about the outsourcing components? Are they all certified for green credential
Bolton Plastics make the interior and heating component parts for all majors, and their energy expenditure is astounding, as is Vita, who do the rubbers for screens seals and trims?
(I'm not saying the Prius soursces components from these examples, but trying to broaden the picture)