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So… where can I buy that scarf?
Email the charity and see if they sell them?
Oh good, Len the Lexit hero has stuck his oar in to say we should keep foreign doctors and nurses out. Thanks Len.
Well, I think I’m up to double figures in people who have said to me in a real, yes you can actually still get those, conversation that they would vote Labour if it wasn’t for Grandpa.
These are conversations that strayed onto politics as a topic.
These are fairly apolitical ‘normal’ people.
The sort of people who are really pissed off about Brexit, can see why it is a terrible idea, but still can’t hold their noses strongly enough to vote Labour whilst Grandpa is in charge.
Let the attacks commence on this post, but it doesn’t stop it being true.
but still can’t hold their noses strongly enough to vote Labour whilst Grandpa is in charge.
Like I keep saying. People get the government they deserve. This one point is the only thing that keeps me sane to be honest. Until the people at large start politicising themselves and looking beyond what the media (and it is mostly the media) tells them then nothing will change, no matter who leads the labour party.
Fast forward a few years, and if Rayner is leader (as I'm sure she will be), and it will be a whole load of stuff about how she wants to hand power to the chavs from the estates, the fact she's got ginger hair and a bit of a lisp, and whatever other bollocks they think they can throw at her. The only people who can change this are the people who believe it.
The sort of people who are really pissed off about Brexit, can see why it is a terrible idea, but still can’t hold their noses strongly enough to vote Labour whilst Grandpa is in charge.
That ordinary people think that Boris is in any way a viable alternative is quite horrifying. You're voting to put hundreds of thousands if not millions of people through hell. Don't do it.
but still can’t hold their noses strongly enough to vote Labour whilst Grandpa is in charge.
Do they have a coherent supporting argument for this or do they just come out with the hilarious magic grandpa comments?
My guess is most of them would only vote Labour if it veered far enough right that they managed to please the press barons.
None of which is particularly good for having a functional political system.
Fast forward a few years, and if Rayner is leader (as I’m sure she will be), and it will be a whole load of stuff about how she wants to hand power to the chavs from the estates, the fact she’s got ginger hair and a bit of a lisp
Kier Starmer. Won't be accused of wanting to hand power to the chavs from the estates, Non-ginger, decent orator.
that scarf?
Wins my wholehearted approval.
Blame “the people” all you want… I blame Corbyn for treating the 2017 failure as a win, and not moving on then. It’s literally everyone else’s fault apart from his with some people, isn’t it.
Anyway… vote to get Johnson out.
If that means Labour in your seat, do it. Please.
I really don’t get all the vitriol aimed at Jo Swinson. She just comes across like a particularly annoying primary school teacher
That's because your not analysing her position as critically as you do magic grandad's.
In all seriousness we all take sides and it's clearly going to get uncomfortable for the people that have faith with the libdemos to realise (quite slowly) they're not as wholesome as they thought they were.
Blame “the people” all you want
What is this need to decide what someone thought and then announce they are wrong? You seem to have a real habit of doing so.
It’s literally everyone else’s fault apart from his with some people, isn’t it.
No its not. Try harder. I am sure you can manage it with some help.
Len McClusky is the most devastatingly effective voter-repellent ever deployed.
Can someone not kidnap him and lock him in a shed for the next 6 weeks?
He’s a ****ing liability!
On radio (Let's Blame Corbyn) today it was saying that in some Brexity flood areas (like mine) that people were making the connection between lack of resources and the Tories.
Maybe God is having the last laugh.
Jokes aside, it will have an impact.
taxi25
Member
Not too late to edit taxi
All of it is untrue ffs.
Ok if not completely true in every case, lets call it true in many cases.
Telling me to edit because you disagree with me, isn’t that remarkable arrogance ?
I thought a quick edit would be a good idea because your post is both racist and wrong.
Corbyn is a decent honest bloke, whilst Johnson is a dishonest, untrustworthy narcissist. Yet people say they prefer Johnson to Corbyn. It’s weird,
If those voters are in tory marginals that Labour need to win an election, then the leader of the labour party becomes the problem. The policies can be good, the party can be good, but you have to have the right sort of leader who will appeal to a wider range of voters than what is happening presently, because FPTP, also the media.
As for Johnson, people probably know he is lying tow rag who is only on the lookout for himself, but believe that the tory party will look after their interests, even though that particular belief is greatly diminished.
In fact, people who say they are comfortable voting for Johnson even though they know he is lying and the tory party will protect their interests, are simply lying to themselves, doubling down on their own lies...Trump 2016.
People do not like Corbyn.
*Some* people don't like a version of him they are peddled.
or just one of those other sort of “facts” where you can’t actually prove it, but just “know” it’s true?
Yes, one of those other facts, and if you read my post in full you'll know its true. If you don't the world has somehow past you by. Go to a mosque talk to Muslims renouncing Islam creates a terrible crisis within families, far more than in any but the most devout Christian family. I'm not judging it's just how it is.
There are many cases of people, including Christians and atheists being complete dicks. But I don’t go around saying ‘atheists are dicks’ or ‘Christians are dicks’. The reason your comments are racist is that you are taking an example of dickish behaviour and reasoning that, because the people happen to be Muslim, that they are behaving badly specifically because they are Muslims –
Obviously, all manner of people can be dicks. But disowning a family member for renouncing Islam isn't Muslims being dicks, at least not in their eyes. Amongst even remotely devout Muslims, of which there's many renouncing Islam is a fundimental betrayal of their religion, family and community. Muslims love their children as much as any parent and will grieve a child they disown as if they'd died.
Using the term Muslim in the way I've done doesn't imply all Muslims would behave as such, only that it's prevalent in their communities.
And MG stating obvious truths isn't racist. I get the impression the only Muslim you meet are educated professionals, not so much the normal working class families that I meet so often.
P.s
I've said my piece on this, so I'll say no more on it. Agree disagree thats fine.
Kier Starmer.
Kier Starmer has about as much chance of becoming labour leader as Peter Mandelson. He's the John Major of the labour party. Effective, trustworthy, inoffensive, but completely lacking any passion or drive to do anything that will inspire anyone outside of Westminster.
decent orator.
You're joking aren't you? Unless of course he's delivering a lecture to the Bar Association.
You’re joking aren’t you?
Have you heard Corbyn this time around? Talk about phoning it in, It's clear he knows there's no chance and his days of Labour leadership are numbered. At least he'll get a quiet Xmas
Taxi - and yo get the same in every religion at it extreme fringes which is what you are talking about. Try renouncing orthodox Judaism or united free kirk of scotland. I know a jewish woman who remained a follower who was thrown out of her family for marrying a gentile. Never saw them again. there was an elder of the united free kirk who was excommunicated for daring to go to a funeral in a protestant church
Your critique is of religion not Islam
The lib dems antics over the seat that the chap stood down in are abhorrent. They are going to impose a candidate centrally that will be shunned by the local party as no one in the local party thinks they should be standing
Its just becoming more and more obvious that Swinson is a tory not a liberal. She is destroying her party given the disquiet over this issue and her strident aggressive tactics and outright lies
But all she wants is another meaningless seat in a tory government - thats clear.
Yeah, how dare the LibDems stand a candidate that’ll just split the vote and help the Tory candidate win… who the hell do they think they are… Labour?!?
I wish the LibDems would back out of this seat. But they are just doing what Labour are doing, and insisting on a candidate for their party standing (in seats where it would be wise for that not to happen if stopping Johnson really is the main goal). Slam both parties for this self defeating tribalism, rather than claiming one actively want a Tory as PM, when clearly neither do… but neither are prepared to step aside for the other in even a single seat. A curse on both their houses, no?
This is the kind of thing I mean about the local response to getting people to vote Labour to get rid of our waste of space Tory MP…
‘My ultimate problem is that I'm friends with Josh and have spoken with him and he has helped me in the past but I can't back Jeremy corbyn’
That’s a direct quote from a local on Facebook (and for those that don’t know, Josh is our Labour candidate) posting on a post by one of our local councillors who the guy also knows and likes.
To a great extent Kelvin yes. However given the relative standing in the polls and how the votes stack up labour standing aside in seats would do much less than the lib dems standing aside. Also Swinson if her aim is to stop brexit should not allow herself to become the greatest obstacle to doing so - which is what she is doing
But than - I am convinced Swinson is actually a tory in the wrong party. She clearly feels more affinity to the tories than to labour and what she actually wants is a ministerial car. Sure she might make her price a second referendum but I still say that given the right numbers she will be straight back into bed with the tories
She clearly would rather have a tory bexiteer win a set than a labour remainer
However given the relative standing in the polls and how the votes stack up labour standing aside in seats would do much less than the lib dems standing aside. Also Swinson if her aim is to stop brexit should not allow herself to become the greatest obstacle to doing so – which is what she is doing
If the SNP stood aside they would hand Labour ~45 seats on a plate. And the SNP *have* power shared with the Torys in Scotland.
However given the relative standing in the polls and how the votes stack up labour standing aside in seats would do much less than the lib dems standing aside.
Yes, would need to stand down in fewer seats than the LibDems, for sure TJ. And we’re not talking many seats in total anyway, not just because there are few that are clear cut, but because in some areas of the UK it simply wouldn’t work, as voters wouldn’t swap their vote from one to the other. But Labour just need to stand down in 4 or 5 seats, and LibDems in 15 or so, and that could be 10 or more Johnson backing MPs kept out of parliament. My seat is one of those where the LibDems should really stand aside.
If the SNP stood aside they would hand Labour ~45 seats on a plate.
Pointless whataboutary. Stepping aside is about reducing Johnson’s number of seats after this election… and the SNP don’t need to help Labour north of the border in order to do that.
decent orator.
You’re joking aren’t you? Unless of course he’s delivering a lecture to the Bar Association.
Whoever I was replying to was talking about a lisp being an electoral disadvantage to another candidate. I'm suggesting Keir Starmer is a decent orator in the sense that he doesn't have a speech impediment, not that he's Winston Churchill.
...and perhaps my point was too subtle for some, but it was that if Labour think a candidate has flaws that will put voters off, they need to pick another candidate. Not consistently field losers and then complain about it!
Almost forgot… three cheers for the people of SOYO for giving Johnson the reception he so richly deserved today.
And the SNP *have* power shared with the Torys in Scotland.
Labour still do.
And MG stating obvious truths isn’t racist. I get the impression the only Muslim you meet are educated professionals, not so much the normal working class families that I meet so often.
You miss the point, I'm not saying all Muslims are great, they're as diverse as anyone else. I'm saying that you can't say as a blanket statement that Muslims do this bad thing, because a) it's not true - bad people do bad things regardless of religion and b) it perpetuates negative stereotypes from which all Muslims suffer even if they are good people.
Stereotyping is bad, ok?
I've moved on MG.
Do they have a coherent supporting argument for this or do they just come out with the hilarious magic grandpa comments?
My guess is most of them would only vote Labour if it veered far enough right that they managed to please the press barons.
None of which is particularly good for having a functional political system.
Does it matter? Their vote carries the same weight as someone you might consider more ‘politically aware’ like your good self. If Corbyn’s Labour is what you regard as ‘legitimate’ then you have a straight choice.
Do you want a Labour Party that is ideologically acceptable to you or do you want a Labour Party that is electable? With Corbyn in charge it is one or the other. Sorry to burst the bubble.
Bear in mind that I myself can and probably will hold my nose tight enough to vote Labour. It ain’t me you’re trying to convince.
And the SNP *have* power shared with the Torys in Scotland.
Exactly what are you reffering to because I do not remember any SNP / tory alliances. are you referring to the SNP minority government working with anyone and everyone to get a programme thru? the tories, the Greens, SSP even occasionally the lib dems all worked with the SNP in a consensual and collegiate style as was always intended for Holyrood. never a formal pact tho. Labour of course sulked, instituted the bain principle and refused to work with the SNP at all which sewed the seeds of their collapse in Scotland
Whereas we have some stinky labour / Tory pacts going on in councils and of course the abhorrent " non aggression" pact at the last general election between labour and the tories which resulted in a dozen tory MPs . without that disgraceful action by Labour we would not have a tory government
Does it matter?
Yes it is rather important. Are they actually valid or, like the attacks on Ed Milliband, are they completely rubbish spun up by the hard right press and tacitly accepted by the "centrists" since they dont really like the idea of a left wing party existing and wanting to get back to the glory days of no options?
Do you want a Labour Party that is ideologically acceptable to you or do you want a Labour Party that is electable?
I want a Labour Party which is actually a Labour party and not a centrist fantasy. In the same way I want a Conservative Party (preferably not so rabidly right wing as it is currently but still reasonably right wing), a Green Party and the Lib dems.
I want to see some actual choices in politics and not the centrist dream (inherited from Thatcher with the "no alternatives") of several very mildly different parties offering pretty much the same things with a few different bits of glitter.
This "electable" really is short hand for want it to be rightwing enough to appeal to the hard right press barons. The country has been there and tried that and ended up with a system so far of centre that its almost USA style. We have ended up with large portions of the population feeling disillusioned with politics since they, rightly, believe a lot of the politicans couldnt care less about them once they have been parachuted into that safe seat.
Also what is it with these bollocks scare quotes and attributions of opinions to me without any evidence.
Stop wibbling on about centrists.
Think about the person who isn’t political engaged day to day, they’re just getting on with their life, but still has their (increasingly regular) vote.
They don’t want Corbyn, they don’t like Corbyn. Wakey, wakey.
Show them the policies, and a lot of people like them… yet still can’t bring themselves to vote Labour because of who the leader is.
He is voter repellent.
Stop wibbling on about centrists.
He is voter repellent.
Centrists get all the flack they deserve when they continue the idea that voters don't like Jeremy Corbyn as they are part of the problem - because they keep repeating embittered DM guff. (Some voters will never like him ofcourse but it's not as far reaching as you think.)
Our number one centrist on here has repeatedly attacked Corbyn for about two years - demonstrably mixing up propaganda and facts. As well as whole of host ridiculous predictions just to stoke the flames. It got the point where I checked Jonathan Freedland just so I knew what bile was coming next on here.
Centrists are part of the problem that the UK is in the state its in. They put all the eggs in the Brexit basket without a nod to the catastrophe that has been austerity and the things that cause people to vote for Brexit. They fail to recognise the disaster that is Jo Swinson and spend time defending the Libdem's pointless (in that it's not going to happen) Brexit position again at the expense of understanding Neolibralism's affect on the UK.
It's not the Labour party that needs to change its the Centrists understanding on what is needed to change the direction of this country for good.
Let's say in the Centrists fantasy world - the Libs made it in and revoked article 50 - our wonderful society and life before 2016 ... Guess what? We're back to the status quo with all the same downward trajectory that we've had for ten years (or thirty years if you really like Thatcherism.)
How can that possibly be a good thing?
Down from my high-horse... UKIP are standing some candidates in areas BXP previously stood down.
Go for it lads!
Its difficult who to decide to vote for.
Labour long ago deserted the working class person ... whilst I agree with their talk of equality, greater opportunity and funding of the NHS; its hard to forget that under New Labour the NHS sell off accelerated last time and they are just a typical London-centric party oblivious to what happens outside London.
The Torys are the usual group at the top maintaining at any cost those at the top .. pure scum.
LibDems are once again London-centric and trust worthy as Boris Johnson himself.
Then you have the Loony Greens and even loonier Plaid Cymru
And of course Brexit Party .. but they are a one trick pony with nothing beside getting Brexit done on the agenda.
Politics is deader than the dying democracy in this country. who knows the answer to how it can be fixed?
Mooman - the answer is actually fairly simple. Copy the holyrood system for Westminster.
Its almost properly proportionate while retaining the constituency links. Small parties get fair representation ( albeit with a high threshold) ALL expenses are published in full and expenses are much more tightly controlled with buying houses on expenses banned
NO archaic bits of flummmary - ie black rod and all that pish
Make it unicameral ( ie no more house of lords)
Thats what a modern democracy looks like
I will also add:
A debating chamber where only party leaders have fixed seats and everyone faces the speaker - everyone else sits where they like, and if leaders are not there, they all sit at at the front together. Physically supporting collaborative working.
The offices in Holyrood are also muddled up between parties, again supporting interaction between MSP's.
Finally, you only have to listen to the language difference between Holyrood and Westminster these days to understand the difference in attitude.
The Scottish system is far from perfect, but they have created a collaborative European style system, building and culture.
They don’t want Corbyn, they don’t like Corbyn. Wakey, wakey.
Show them the policies, and a lot of people like them… yet still can’t bring themselves to vote Labour because of who the leader is.
He is voter repellent.
Exactly this. I like Corbyn and would rather have a conversation with him than most other MPs. However, there is no way he should still be the leader and if he was self aware he would have stepped down a long time ago as he is the main reason the Labour party is not more successful.
They don’t want Corbyn, they don’t like Corbyn. Wakey, wakey.
Show them the policies, and a lot of people like them… yet still can’t bring themselves to vote Labour because of who the leader is.
He is voter repellent.
Don't disagree, but the second a new person steps into his position the Tory smear canon will just change it's aim and start splurting out the lies again.
If you, or someone you know lives in them, especially the ultra marginals, please have a word and get them to vote tactically.