They are regressive though.
Take it up with TJ, it was his suggestion.
Take it to the Laffer Curve thread.
Northwind won't like you confusing Laffer Curves with Revenue curves! 😀
Pretty sure turnover taxes are illegal under EU rules.
Do we know why?
No idea and google didn't help me. My *guess* is it's due to double taxation. If you're in the EU you have to have VAT (I think) so if you have a turnover tax as well you're taxing the same thing twice.
I don't think turnover tax and VAT are equivalent. The buyer pays VAT, but the vendor would pay turnover tax. And some things like services may not be subject to VAT?
True, but you could increase the indirect tax paid on the fuels used in private jets and helicopters, but rescue the indirect tax paid on those things you consider are purchased more by someone “on the breadline”
That’s exactly what I was talking about.
TJ is specifically talking about Coffee from coffee shops. Increasing VAT on people's coffee won't be a vote winner AFAICT.
You or I might consider coffee from a coffee shop an extravagant waste, but millions don't.
My *guess* is it’s due to double taxation
Fuel duty is a form of taxation but we also pay VAT on it.
I don’t think turnover tax and VAT are equivalent. The buyer pays VAT, but the vendor would pay turnover tax.
You acknowledged they were broadly equivalent when you said "They are regressive though.".
Businesses turnover comes exclusively comes from their customers so a turnover tax is not broadly different to a sales tax like VAT. How could it be?
And some things like services may not be subject to VAT?
Agree with this. A turnover tax would catch a vast amount of stuff that VAT is tuned to miss.
Fuel duty is a form of taxation but we also pay VAT on it.
Maybe it's something else then or maybe there's a reason that isn't double taxation. Like you I'd love to know the reasoning.
I did not say vat
Businesses turnover comes exclusively comes from their customers
Does it?
Interest on loans to other businesses? Return on investments of other businesses, perhaps in different jurisdictions? Sale of stock? Sale of assets to other companies? Transferral of leases? License revenue? I'm not an expert in corporate affairs but it seems to me that a large company will have a lot more going on than simply selling stuff.
Interest on loans to other businesses? Return on investments of other businesses, perhaps in different jurisdictions? Sale of stock? Sale of assets to other companies? Transferral of leases? License revenue?
All of these required some cash in the first place which required the firm to sell goods or services in the first place. Five of them *literally* are selling stuff to customers!
You said a turnover tax is regressive, which means you accept my point, and clearly I accept your point because I'm not saying that VAT/Sales tax is *identical* to a Turnover Tax. So we can probably quit.
All of these required some cash in the first place which required the firm to sell goods or services in the first place. Five of them *literally* are selling stuff to customers!
A partner isn't necessarily a customer.
So we can probably quit.
Yeah. Just trying to explore the subtleties of the different ideas. I think that's what would matter if a party were to push for it as policy.
Here we go… as feared… Farage is giving a speech and it looks like he’s getting ready to use his party to make things harder just for Labour, not for the Tories…
https://twitter.com/alexwickham/status/1193863447315914755?s=21
I think we’re staring at a Conservative majority now.
BBC have been caught out doctoring footage of Boris Johnsons wreath laying, replacing his performance with one filmed in 2016. It's not even the same colour of wreath. No bias there then.
I think we’re staring at a Conservative majority now.
TBH I've been reading the polls that way anyway.
Yup, we’re screwed. Farage just stated Brexit Party standing against all Labour & LibDem MPs, but not against ANY Conservative MPs. We’re all screwed.
No bias there then.
It’s just a cock up, no?
It's theoretically possible that BP was taking more Labour voters than Tory voters in marginal seats, so this could have unintended consequences. Not sure anyone has numbers to give an indication?
I think we’re staring at a Conservative majority now.
Can't disagree.
It’s theoretically possible that BP was taking more Labour voters than Tory voters in marginal seats, so this could have unintended consequences. Not sure anyone has numbers to give an indication?
For sure, but I don't think we will know until the date.
Yup, we’re screwed.
Why the surprise? There was no way Farage was ever going to go against what Trump wants him to do. Those labour leave voters just became the focus of this election. Labour might well come to regret adopting a more remainey policy with a second referendum.
This is also going to screw up the polls, because the question 'would you vote for the Brexit Party' depends on if a candidate is standing, and if the respondent knows whether or not a candidate is standing.
Well I suppose it's possible some of the more Brexity tory voters will jump ship to BP too.
Why the surprise?
I’ve been warning that this will happen for years now, and that the opposition parties need to be ready for it by stepping aside for each other in key seats. Trollalong now please.
Libdems make a pact now?
I’d like the LibDems to simply stand aside in some seats… unilaterally, just like Farage’s company has, and the Greens have in some seats… this Labour Party won’t be making any pact for this election with anyone… they seem to see this as a battle to become the next official opposition, and treat that as another success story somehow. Sharing power with the other opposition parties isn’t in their game plan.
Sharing power with the other opposition parties isn’t in their game plan.
At this stage how don't know how you can say anything for definite.
Maybe Labour can now say "if you vote BP it's the same as voting Tory", and keep voters that way?
I can't do the maths currently (work hey) but on LBC they are saying it only allows Boris to fight his existing seats (without BXP candidates) so doesn't automatically give him any more seats than currently - assuming 2017 plays out!
That right?
Looks like Farage is going to spend the election campaign as an unofficial outrider for the ERG wing of the Tory party then.
That right?
No, it’s not right.
Many target seats for the Tories rely on ex-Labour voters who no longer consider Labour as the party for the patriotic working class voter turning to Farage’s joke candidates. It makes little sense, but there you are.
Those labour leave voters just became the focus of this election
Leave voters that are Labour, is not the same thing as Labour supporters that voted Leave. The generally accepted figure is 3-4 million Labour supporters voted leave, I think it's fair to say that some of those will hold their noses and vote for a far right single issue party, but most (according to dazh anyway, as he says that most voters vote as per normal) will still vote Labour.
I think this news reflects that fact that after Farage decided not to stand personally, his party is effectively a busted flush, and this act (to try to inflict damage on the Left) his his last hurrah.
Of course this doesn't change the fact that even in Labour seats, the Brexit party will still largely spilt the vote between themselves and the Tories
his last hurrah
Last Hurrah for the “Brexit Party”, which will be gone before we have the next election after this one… but we haven’t seen the back of Farage. He’ll find another way to mess things up here… probably after a few years in the USA.
Those labour leave voters just became the focus of this election. Labour might well come to regret adopting a more remainey policy with a second referendum.
and then lost labour remainers, - 2/3rds of their supporters?
No, it’s not right.
Many target seats for the Tories rely on ex-Labour voters who no longer consider Labour as the party for the patriotic working class voter turning to Farage’s joke candidates. It makes little sense, but there you are.
No - that's not what I'm saying the point is the seats he's (NF) standing down against are Tory seats already. So the Labour voters probably won't switch to Tory. Whereas they may have switched to BXP. They can't now.
I'm not talking about the ones that Farage is still putting candidates up against.
Of course this doesn’t change the fact that even in Labour seats, the Brexit party will still largely spilt the vote between themselves and the Torie
Yep.
So what does this NF cop-out buy the Tories?
Oh well
hard brexit & 5 years of Johnson
100 seat majority?
You need to think about the seats involved… the Brexit Party vote demographic is very different in, say, the North East than it is in, say, Gloucestershire or Somerset.
So what does this NF cop-out buy the Tories?
Nothing. There is no deal that farage could offer (other than dissolving the BX-P) that could entice the Tories into a deal with him. The same logic that prevents the Labour party from doing a deal with the Lid-Dems (it makes them look weak and desperate) is the same for the Tories. This is a unilateral announcement simply for face saving purposes (and probs the offer of a gong and lift to the other place for Nigel who desperately craves it). Surely the most Establishment anti establishment protester that ever there was.
It makes it all very strange. There is always the chance that it was galvanise people who aren't fond of Brexit or the Tories to get out and vote.
Oh well
hard brexit & 5 years of Johnson
100 seat majority?
They can't get any more Tory seats than have just been dropped by NF. But at the same time the BXP vote will likely split the Tory Vote where Farage hasn't dropped his candidates.
Boris still needs to win those seats from Labour to get a majority. Not that likely.
(All that's happened is Farage has taken the pressure of Boris losing his existing seats to BXP. Still not majority though.)
Not sure the BP news as reported is *that* significant. Brexiteers/Torys need Farage to withdraw from the marginal Labour seats because without taking Labour seats, the Tory's have no hope of a majority because, for sure, they are going to lose seats to the LibDems and SNP.
Mind you surely Farage understands that and is using Tory seats as shorthand for 'seats the Torys have a chance in'.
Or is NF trying to make a hung parliament certain/more likely?
There is no deal that farage could offer (other than dissolving the BX-P) that could entice the Tories into a deal with him. The same logic that prevents the Labour party from doing a deal with the Lid-Dems (it makes them look weak and desperate) is the same for the Tories.
100pc this.
Sharing power with the other opposition parties isn’t in their game plan.
A quick look at Swinsons position would make it rather clear why that isnt an option.
Wonder if he is going to refund the candidate fees or is it going to end up a a nice profit for him and Tice
A quick look at Swinsons position would make it rather clear why that isnt an option.
Yep. She wants a handful more seats at the expense of everything.
So what does this NF cop-out buy the Tories?
Less competition (i.e. none from BXP) in tory safe seats, so it's debatable what that means, they will potentaily lose less safe seats, but that doesnt nessesarily mean they'll gain in the subset of seats as they are already 'safe' tory?
Less competition (i.e. none from BXP) in tory safe seats, so it’s debatable what that means, they will potentaill losse less safe seats, but that doesnt nessesarily mean theyl gain in the subset of seats as they are already ‘safe’ tory?
Exactly. Which places the Tories with no more MP in those seats - Worst(best) case. As it stands currently we know that's not a majority.
This will still win the Tories some seats off of Labour that they wouldn’t win without a Brexit Party candidate sitting. If you can’t see why and how, well…
It also hammers the LibDem chances in some South West seats that the Tories were likely to lose. Conservatives should be very pleased with Farage’s move.
This will win the Tories some seats that currently have a Labour MP. If you can’t see why and how, well…
Depends what seats we are talking about - does anyone know what seats BXP are stading in? do they even know?
Take calderdale for example, not a tory safe seat, lets assume it's 40/40 Lab and Con as in 2017.
A BXP candidate there would see a Labour victory.