[Closed] 2015-16 rugby, world cup year

Is Webb going to get the 9 shirt back? I thought Davies was.....even better......

Wales have so many good 9's that they should go with the form player IMO and that may change by the 6N. To be honest Gareth Davies may not even get back in to the Scarlets team as Aled Davies has been pretty awesome so far too. Not sure how long Webb is out for- anyone remember?

Joubert made the error but it was understandable given his viewpoint. However, as he presumably saw on the big screen a better angle and what really happened could he not have employed common sense and awarded the scrum? He wouldn't be using the TMO as such but he would be using all the evidence available to him.

What would Nigel Owens have done?

RFU reportedly sniffing around Schmidt with a view to buying him out of contract.

You mean, the left hand has made a decision even before the right hand had announced the investigatory panel? English rugby in mystery selection process based on whatevery?

Surely not.

You mean, the left hand has made a decision even before the right hand had announced the investigatory panel? English rugby in mystery selection process based on whatevery?

"Paper clip seller starts RFU conspiracy"

... Says the Daily Mail.

I think the IRB did the only thing they could and admitted the mistake, it's obvious from the TV replays it was the wrong decision. They also, correctly, point out that the TMO cannot be used (technically) for a review. @wanman is correct they will change the TMPO rules, once you have TMO its daft not to be able to use it for everything as clearly a 78th minute penalty is just as important as a 2nd minute try. You can't replay the game as it was a mistake, so hats off to the IRB for just saying so.

@namaste , no I don't think the error was understandable. In that situation you have to be really really sure it was [b]intentional[/b]

I don't buy the Schmidt rumours, the review will take place after the RWC. I'm glad Rob Andrew has nothing to do with it, you do wonder what the £500k pa the RFU pays him is actually for. Hopefully the review will do away with his position entirely.

Was in Midi Olympique, Kryters.

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There's no 'technically' about it, it can't be used for every call.

What's the definition of 'foul play' in rugby? Does it need to be a potential carding offense, or just one that results in a penalty?

They even mentioned the RFU's interest in Schmidt on the Ireland game commentary

Jamba, the test of intention is by the action of the offside player. If he can't avoid being touched by the ball then it is accidental offside. 11.6 (a).
Anything else is intentional.

It is not a test of the actions of the first player.

Whatnobeer, the definition of foul play runs to 8 pages in my book of laws 🙂

But the intro goes:
Anything.... That a player does against the letter or the spirit of the laws of the game. It includes obstruction, unfair play, repeated infringements, dangerous play and misconduct which is prejudicial to the game.

Joël Jutge - the guy who's just thrown Joubert to the lions - wonder if he's ever missed something even more blatant on a rugby field. I mean, real, bare faced cheating...not some heat of the moment thing. Might have been around the same time in the game though.

So it comes back to:

If he gives a penalty in that situation he suspects foul play and can go to tmo.

Otherwise its accidental and scrum/free kick. As happened earlier.

the test of intention is by the action of the offside player. If he can't avoid being touched by the ball then it is accidental offside. 11.6 (a).
Anything else is intentional.

In that case if a player throws a forward pass to another player who's marginally in front of him and that player catches the pass (which happens all the time,) then technically, that's intentionally playing the ball in an offside position?

I've often thought that playing the ball when it comes forward off a team mate is frequently done instinctively and it seems harsh to award a penalty unless the offside player has done it purely to gain an unfair advantage.

Maybe it's time for a rethink on many of the technical infringements that result in penalties and, IMO, blight the game.

What I don't think has been done is consider what if a scrum had been awarded. So Australia win their scrum, inside the Scotland half. Half a dozen phases gains them 20m. At which point it's played back for a drop goal with the clock already past 80 minutes. Same result.

OK, so it might not have happened like that - Scotland might have collapsed the scrum or conceded a penalty at some other point during those phases. You'd have to think though that with possession in the Scotland half, Australia were favourites to find some way to score. The idea that had the penalty not been awarded Scotland would have won is quite a big assumption.

Not that it matters now but how late does a hit need to be for the TMO to intervene - in the vine I've seen Hogg is hit 3 seconds after the ball leaves his foot?

In that case if a player throws a forward pass to another player who's marginally in front of him and that player catches the pass (which happens all the time,) then technically, that's intentionally playing the ball in an offside position?

Not quite, the law is more relaxed about the forward pass it is only intentional offside if the intention is on the part of the passer not the receiver. (12.1 f) (and that intention is to pass the ball forward, rather than not quite manage to pass the ball flat or backwards)

And always not forgetting that in most forward passes, the receiver usually starts off in an onside and is never actually offside. He just receives the ball in front of the passer.

CaptainFlashheart - Member
RFU reportedly sniffing around Schmidt with a view to buying him out of contract.

Repotedly sniffing round Shaun Edwards too.
And Gatland.
And Vern Cotter.

Only WC coach not been mentioned for THE JOB so far is PSA.
Must be in secret contract talks already then. 😉

RFU should never had let Edwards go, proven club coach gaining international experience. They should have found a away to get him to stay and helped him prepare for taking the top job at some point. My view is it will go to an English coach (80%) vs Lancaster keeping the job (20%)

@Stoner the IRB have said flat out it was the wrong decision.

@aracer indeed, we don't know what would have happened but the odds would have been much more in favour of Scotland

PSA for Stade Français v Munster in November, the cheapest Cat 4 tickets are €13-15 and a very good view in a great club stadium [url= http://billetterie.stade.fr ]tickets[/url]

aracer - no, a Scotland win without the penalty is hardly a given. We'd already put ourselves under massive pressure by screwing up both the restart and the line-out.

Nevertheless, it's hardly a guaranteed Aussie win either. They had 2 minutes to score from a scrum a short way inside the Scotland half. Any turnover, handling error, infringement or Scotland merely keeping them pushed-back long enough to run-down the clock would have been enough to give Scotland the win.

Being behind with barely 2 minutes to go is a desperate, desperate situation in a knock-out game, most definitely not where you want to be! Would still have been backing Scotland at that point.

IANRAT however my take on the whole thing is:

1: Gutted that Scotland didnt win. I am English but cheered for Wales and Scotland (Not Ireland but we wont go into that)
2: Joubert made the wrong decision but it took 3 slo mo's before anyone in their armchair could determine it was such. He should not be slated for this.
3: He has been treated disgracefully by his cowardly governing body.
4: I was slightly disappointed in Laidlaw's post game interview although I understand emotions where high.
5: I was also suprised by the reaction of a number of commentators who showed bad judgement in their criticism of Joulbert immediately after the game. They should know better.
6: Hastings has gone down in my estimation. Even in my limited experience I have seen a number of things on a rugby field I would describe as "worse" than a referee "jogging" into the tunnel on the final whistle.

5: I was also suprised by the reaction of a number of commentators who showed bad judgement in their criticism of Joulbert immediately after the game.

Most of them criticised him for running off rather than for the decision. Still can't say that I've seen a good excuse for that.

6: Hastings has gone down in my estimation. Even in my limited experience I have seen a number of things on a rugby field I would describe as "worse" than a referee "jogging" into the tunnel on the final whistle.

Most of them criticised him for running off rather than for the decision. Still can't say that I've seen a good excuse for that.

I agree but I think Hastings over reacted to that plus he may say he felt some hostility etc given what he had just done. Not making excuses but it was nothing more than "very unusual"

This one incident at the end makes it easy to forget Joubert had a dreadful game all match (for both sides). It was a little "Steve Walsh" at times for want of a better description. I don't think he's getting a hard time just for one difficult decision at the end or running off, that is only part of it.

Don't know why the ref ran, we just wanted a wee chat with him...

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Semis will be reffed by Barnes (not the NZ game 😉 ) and Jérôme Garcès. So Owens is going to get the final. Congrats 😀

When I was playing hockey at a reasonable level any player who challenged the umpires was promptyl told "to stop behaving like a footballer".

Other than in cases of blatant cheating or material incompetence, I have always regarded all sporting officials to be just another factor of the game, much like the pitch conditions, the light or the weather.

I agree with Jambalaya - Joubert's been hung out to dry.

The obvious reaction will be that the TMO is rolled out for all sorts of things. As someone who watches lots of rubgy league, I have to say it feels like the on pitch ref sends it up to the video ref too often, for too long, which creates real breaks of play.

Owens (and not just Owens) handling of the breakdown has been appalling this WC. It seems something must have been said before the tournament as his decisions and style are not the same as normal. Maybe the refs have had some strong encouragement to not blow up for penalties this WC and keep the game flowing? A bit like hardly any scrum penalties being given if the ball is available at the back- ignore the 10m drive and destroyed opposition, get on with the game.

So have I got this right. It should not have been a penalty because the Australian scrum half admitted trying to play the ball after the match? However, at normal speed the ref merely concluded it bounced off him by accident or didn't touch him at all? Also I'm pretty sure after it hits the Aussie it then brushes a Scottish player's shoulder before it goes forward and is picked up off the floor which I think is what the Aussie players were appealing for - doesn't this make a difference?

Anyhow, isn't Edwards's contract with Wales up now? He largely did a pretty good effort with the Welsh Defence. By the time England finish their review he will probably signed something else.

[quote=stevomcd ]aracer - no, a Scotland win without the penalty is hardly a given. We'd already put ourselves under massive pressure by screwing up both the restart and the line-out.
Nevertheless, it's hardly a guaranteed Aussie win either.

I agree - but there seems to be the assumption that Scotland would have won without the penalty, or at least that's the tone of a lot of the discussion ("we were robbed by the penalty"). Scotland were big favourites before the lineout, but I'd have backed Australia if they'd had a scrum.

or Scotland merely keeping them pushed-back long enough to run-down the clock

That wouldn't have done it - they'd have still needed a turnover or an Australian infringement.

[quote=surfer ]2: Joubert made the wrong decision but it took 3 slo mo's before anyone in their armchair could determine it was such. He should not be slated for this.
3: He has been treated disgracefully by his cowardly governing body.

This

The refs decision should stand, it's taken numerous replays and [b]days[/b] to determine that he was mistaken. TBH I'm not even sure he was that awful in the rest of the game - the big decision which I disagree with was taken by the TMO, and he got some things very right - it would have been very easy to have just given the Australia try rather than get the TMO to look at the knock on.

The other thing to bear in mind about that penalty which "lost Scotland the game" - they would have never have been in that situation if they'd had a better line-out. After a great game, their fate was in their own hands at that line-out.

After a great game, their fate was in their own hands at that line-out.

What kind of idiot decides to throw a long high wet ball to Dave Denton (not the world's greatest ball handler ;)) at such a crucial point in the tournament?

If we'd beaten Australia we'd have gone on to beat Argentina* and meet the All Blacks in the final. Given what they did to France I shudder to think what they would do to us with the whole world watching.

This may be a blessing in disguise.

* I know what you're going to say but it's plausible

As the line out got ready I was wondering what the hell we were doing.8 man,ball to middle and up jumper.That was what cost us. If you can't close out a game with 2 mins left then you don't deserve to be in the semi.

Something I don't understand is when the TMO can impose himself on the game. I understand that CJ couldn't refer the decision to the TMO but could the TMO have said 'check check' and then checked who the last person to touch the ball was?.

After all, if the TMO can overturn the knock on and turn it into a deliberate knock on to get Maitland yellow carded then surely he could let CJ know that he was checking the knock on at the line out and overturn the penalty if it turned out to be unintentional?

Stoner - Member

Not quite, the law is more relaxed about the forward pass it is only intentional offside if the intention is on the part of the passer not the receiver. (12.1 f) (and that intention is to pass the ball forward, rather than not quite manage to pass the ball flat or backwards)

Cheers Stoner. 😉

Anyway, still RWC related.... Marler is a bit simple isn't he

... and it is important to remember the last minute decision against Scotland isn't one of the worst...

I have a question about side entry to rucks. Scotland V Australia at the weekend, last ruck of the game. Number 18 comes in from the side of a ruck and then holds the opposing player on the ground. What should the "penalty" be for that? And can the TMO butt in on that one given that it's foul play?

Scotsman walks into a bar.....

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wanmankylung - pretty straight forward offside at a ruck. Two parallel lines of offside, both running through the back feet of the rearmost player on each side.

You can join the ruck alongside your last man, as long as your feet are no further forwards than his.

which ruck are you referring to in the vid? Got a timestamp?

13 mins 13 secs in that video 79 mins 40 secs ish in the game.

Laidlaw was one of the NH players of the tournament IMO - I can forgive a bit of emotion and hurt after all that effort.