[Closed] 2.0 HDi woes...

So many thing it could be and as your finding you can end up just changing everyother bit till its fixed. Idealy needs to be driven with live data recorded to see whats going on.

Assuming you have done the obvious check of the air filter and pipes for a blockage i would head towards the fuel pump.

Check all vacuum pipes for splits. Check turbo boost pipe for splits opening up when on boost. Check turbo actuator etc. Presuming the 90 hp has a turbo of course. Chris diesel to the forum!

I did find a hole worn through the vaccum pipe to the EGR solenoid where the hose had rubbed on the engine cover. This has been fixed.

I don't think it can be turbo related (yes, it does have a turbo), as the turbo isn't active at these kind of engine speeds.

Have you asked/searched on [url= http://www.frenchcarforum.co.uk/forum/ ]French Car Forum?[/url]

The turbo will be spinning at all engine speeds, so I wouldn't rule it out.

Hi, try driving the car with the air flow metre disconnected, the idea being if the air flow metre is disconnected the Ecu will revert to internal mapping for air and fueling. Also depending on age there is a vacuum control throttle valve on the rear of the engine that can stick on light throttle or low rpm.
I'll have a think or any other issues.
What's the last 8 of the vin no?

Thanks Chris. Vin ends 93263460. I have tried the disconnected MAF sensor, and had no joy. I replaced the MAF as there was a light film of oil inside the old one, and I suspected that that wasn't a good thing. I have also put jubilee clips around both ends of the crankcase breather pipe as there was oily residue escaping at some point and the pipes were not a tight fit.

Slight thread hijack, I replaced the air mass meter on my 2002 2.0 HDI C5. There was a huge improvement in immediate torque and acceleration. Soon after the performance went back to its slow coach mode. It wasn't that I became accustomed to the improvement. When you fit an air mass meter is there any other reprogramming required? I simply switched the old part for the new one.

My mechanic has suggested fitting a tuning box from [url= http://www.tuning-diesels.co.uk/products/ronbox-1/ ]Ronbox[/url], which I wouldn't be averse to if it doesn't bump insurance too high and it has a beneficial effect. I understand it works mainly by boosting fuel rail pressure. Is this a bad thing?

Morning, not looked at the tuning box web site but my feeling is "cheap" chip boxes that mainly just re route the fuel fail pressure and tell the Ecu it's lower than it actually is are a very poor way of increasing power, and generally cause smoking/over fuelling and seen one blown engine, proper remapping is different again but expensive and without being rude it's not a sports car.
Let me have a look today at the known issues and the type of system on the car.
E mail me trout wrestler

Sorry, film of oil inside air mass unit is normal, corrosion around the thing that looks like a Match inside it and on the silver squire plate inside are the things to look for.

Mcmoonter - you have a fault somewhere else on the car. Try getting the fault codes read. Was it a new MAF you fitted?

.

Tuning box is more for economy than power. With my current issues, economy is definiately down, probably as I have to drive faster to overcome the hesitation.

Chrisdiesel - I cannot find your email address. Mine is in my profile.

Cheers,
Charlie

With my current issues, economy is definiately down, probably as I have to drive faster to overcome the hesitation.

this is doubtful. economy is probably down because there is a fault somewhere.

Id be checking none of the turbo hoses have delaminated - as your turbo spools up and creates negative pressure these can squash and cut flow.

Id relook at the vacumn hoses to the EGR - checking carefully the T pieces and round any joins. Id look for perished diaphragms in the EGR but performing a suck/blow test on it and verifying it opens and closes when it should.

Id look for air leaks in the air intake up stream of the MAF sensor

all take into account that its been serviced as it should be as ive had similar feelings from bad fuel filters in my DW8 non turbo engine- feels like a dead spot in the engine between 1500-1750 that it could pull through but then when it reached 70 it struggled to go any further - felt like a dying fuel pump. turned out to be a blocked and partially colapsing fuel filter.....

Mcmoonter - you have a fault somewhere else on the car. Try getting the fault codes read. Was it a new MAF you fitted?

Yes it was a new MAF, Ive tried two now. Pricey at about £80 each.

I've not got a fault code reader. Is there anyone in Fife you could recommend?

now mcmoonter

that is something i might be able to help with.

i dont have an HDI engine but if you can find out what protocol it uses i could post you my code reader - iirc its an OBDII reader i have but ill check tonight.

works with my peugeot van and 107s

OBDII readers are £7 on ebay, they work just fine, software for them is also easily picked up off the net. Then get a list of fault codes and go through them..

i went for the all in one unit - just pings up a code and you refer to the handbook.

how ever - dont follow them blindly as they can point you in all sorts of directions away from the real source

i have that and its paid for its self a few times over.

I've had a boost pressure sensor go on a Passat; there was a hesitation thing going before it became an obvious lack of turbo boost as symptoms got worse.

i dont have an HDI engine but if you can find out what protocol it uses i could post you my code reader - iirc its an OBDII reader i have but ill check tonight.

Where would I find out what engine protocol I have? VIN no?

Further update:

The van went into what I assume is "Limp Mode" on the way home tonight. Massive loss of power which nearly was the end of me when I pulled out onto a roundabout...

I have whipped the blanking plate back out, and although the EML is not on, the van seems to still be in Limp Mode. Is there a simple way to re set this?

Disconnect battery for a bit - 20mins / half an hour should see it bugger off unless it was actually nothing to do with the egr plate.

Maybe an o2 sensor, now that its in limp mode get the codes read.

McMoonter - I'm in Milnathort, and the fella at French Vehicle Services (maybe worth a shot?) in Kinglassie recommended [url= http://www.dmautoelec.com/index.html ]Daryls Auto Electrics[/url] for ECU reprogramming (I want my Cruise Control activated).

I use Stewart and Smart in Milnathort, but this problem with the hesitation has them stumped. EGR was their idea.

Parksie - I don't think there is an Oxygen/lambda sensor on the diesel?

It should have one maybe two.

Cheers Troutwrestler. I will give them a shout.

I had a 2.0 HDi picasso (probably the same engine) and the throttle cable was slack. there is a clip you can take the tension up with. Worth a shot.

Yep, tried the throttle cable tension too.

Just reconnected the battery after half hour disconnection. Still in Limp Mode 🙁

Time to get your codes read. Sounds like it wasnt egr after all

Here's an update: The codes were read on Thursday - the only one being "EGR Fault". The car was then out of Limp Mode, but still had the same issue on light throttle. Suddenly yesterday and today the problem has vanished. It has been much colder. I wonder if it is temp related, or just voodoo?

On that car where is the throttle position sensor? On my 306 with the same engine the electronic throttle position sensor sits right behind the rad/bonnet latch and gathers rain in the back of the connector every time you open the bonnet or go through a puddle.

I had the exact same symptoms with no fault codes (I have all the readers, scopes, you name it, tried different MAFs, removing the MAF entirely, cleaningit, blocking the EGR) and it turned out to be corrosion on the throttle position sensor connector. Removed it, cleaned up the contacts with light emery paper (they didn't look too corroded), lubed up with petroleum jelly and re-connected and it was fine ever after.

On that car where is the throttle position sensor?

I get the low rev stutter on my 407, same 2.0HDi engine. As it's only used for long runs/occasionally I'll live with it until whatever is causing it properly dies, especially as the throttle position sensor (generally acknowledged as the most likely cause) is hidden in the pedal box and a nightmare to get to on mine...

The TPS is mounted on the engine mount stiffener adjacent to the offside wheelarch. I am just going to leave it at the moment while the going is good, but have suspicions about the TPS. Those in the know tell me that the TPS is very reliable, with the ability to self test, but it would explain the symptoms. I have seen a TPS strip'n'rebuild how-to on a 306 forum, so may give that a go.

sounds like a bit like a problem with my audi which turned out to be an intercooler leak

No intercooler on the 2.0Hdi 90ps, only on the 110ps.

A further update...

I have replaced the TPS - no difference. I have been for a diagnostics session with a local diesel injection specialist, but they could find nothing significant wrong (Previously a fault with the clutch switch had shown up, but I don't think the clutch switch does anything as I don't have Cruise Control installed. Also a fault with the cooling fan, but I don't see how this could be relevant). They're opinion is that given that no faults are showing, it is likely to be something mechanical, or maybe an earth fault - I have disconnected and cleaned what I think are the main earth points on the nearside wall of the engine compartment, and I have performed a BSI reset - no effect!

I feel that the surging is getting more frequent, more severe, and occurring across a wider range of RPM - generally under light throttle (right on the cusp of throttle vs overrun) between 1500-2000 RPM.

Am I mad to consider that the timing belt tensioner could be loosening, allowing the belt to flap in these circumstances?

Confused! (and squeaky bummed if it is the timing belt tensioner...)

Get some form if scan tool hooked up to the car. Even Torque on your phone with a decent Bluetooth adaptor should be able to give you live info on lambda and boost pressure etc. You're trying to find a fairly minor sounding driveability fault, so something is probably going slightly wrong intermittently. A decent scan tool can monitor the engine's sensors and give you a good steer as to what's going on. A fault code reader will only pull up problems that are enough to properly upset the car.

And stop changing bits at random and thinking the ECU might have corrupted. It's French, but even then, computers are pretty reliable things. You're far more likely to find a simple mechanical fault like a boost leak of dodgy filter than you are to find that your ECU has gone mad. And if your timing belt was flapping about, it would land on the road pretty sharpish I reckon.

The scan tool is exactly what the diesel specialist hooked up, then we drove around for 45 mins. The car was misbehaving, we could feel it, but the live data was showing nothing erroneous from any of the sensors.

Bluetooth OBD reader shows spiky fuel pressure when fault occurs. I thought that this could be a faulty pressure sensor, pressure regulator, or third piston deactiveator solenoid on the HP fuel pump, but the technician dismissed these saying if they were faulty, a code would be showing.

It might seem like it's minor, but when it's shuddering, my kids heads are rocking backwards and forwards like a scene from Wayne's World.

Just had a quick scan of the thread.

My first guess given the symptoms would be EGR valve, however since blanking that didn't change a thing, that's ruled out.

However without access to live data, everything else is pure guess work. General things I'd be checking would be boost pressure (i.e. is the wastegate actuator/control solenoid working), and a general check of the fuel system (i.e. injector balance and fuel pressure).

My gut feeling would actually be a fuel system issue, given the specific RPM range it happens. IIRC the injectors on a diesel of that era reduce the number of injection phases at 1500RPM. An injector balance check via live data, or a leak off test may show up something, but not always.
There is also the classic check of the fuel filter housing for any metal bits lying in the bottom, which is a potential sign of something breaking up in the fuel system.

Injector balance has shown (from memory) 92%, 95%, 105%, 108%. Technician's opinion was that this wasn't unreasonable on a 130,000 miler, and that injectors were unlikely to be the issue.

A simple 'suck' test on the EGR solenoid, and I can hear it click upon release. The feed into the inlet has soot in it, but is nowhere near clogged, and the gas comes through no worried. Blanking it caused limp mode. I think it is most likely a fuelling issue. Fuel pump is of course driven by the timing belt.

Maybe it is a partially blocked Cat?

Bluetooth OBD reader shows spiky fuel pressure when fault occurs. I thought that this could be a faulty pressure sensor, pressure regulator, or third piston deactiveator solenoid on the HP fuel pump, but the technician dismissed these saying if they were faulty, a code would be showing

Find a new technician.
Not having a fault stored, just means something hasn't exceeded a pre-programmed limit, not that that specific item isn't the cause of the problem.
Spikey fuel pressure could easily be the problem, it's just a case of finding out the cause. Given the longetivity of the problem i.e. it's not failed completely, it's obviously not something overly critical that's failing.
Again live data is your friend. When the fault is happening, what is the fuel pressure regulator PWM? Surging i.e. pressure goes high, PWM drops with no related drop in pressure, on that reading would indicate the valve sticking. Again checking how the 3rd piston cut-off is reacting would help point you in the right direction. If there is no corresponding response in any of the actuators/sensors, then it could be an actual mechanical pump fault, as the 3rd piston cut-out does operate around that speed, however I would expect that to either work or not work (if it did fail to cut-off, I'd expect over pressure faults, and if it failed cut-off, I'd expect poor response at low speed due to low fuel pressure).
Everything else I can think of would normallu cause issues under high load, during starting, or at low speed.

Injector balance seems pretty normal.

Signs of a sticky EGR valve can be -
At light load/cruising where you'll get a slight surging feeling.
It'll cause brief hesistation when you go from light throttle to full throttle.
Absolute lack of power.
Starts but quickly stops.

However a few different algorythms in the ECU monitor EGR performance, so faults usually get flagged up pretty quick.

Yep. I'm not sure whether the fuel pressure spikes are a symptom or the cause. I am sure that they are not good.

The 3rd piston deactivator could have a sticky solenoid. Would the car run with the 3rd piston deactivator disconnected?

Plenty of power. Everyone who drives it comments that for a Berlingo, it shifts... That's not my driving style though.

I can always accelerate out of the issue, but this is leading to me driving faster that I'd like to, or in to low a gear.

sounds the same as my missus 307, after trying ALL of the above it turned out to be a blocked cat.

Personally I'd doubt the 3rd piston cut-out sticking would cause a prolonged issues i.e. more than a single glitch.

I'd actually have to go and find a manual to check how the 3rd piston cut-out actually works, as I've never seen any problems with them. I think they're a simple on/off set-up, which simply holds the pump chamber inlet valve open, so there's not really much to go wrong.

I can't honestly tell you what would happen if you unplug it on a PSA though. I know Mercs will go into limp home mode immediately and severly limit revs if it's disconnected. The risk is the fuel system over-pressurises, however there is a pressure limiting valve, which will protect things, but may cause a fault to be stored or the engine to cut-out. It all depends on how PSA decideed to programe the ECU, as even though it's a standard Bosch system, every manufacturer programmes things differently.

A blocked cat with surging, should cause a corresponding surging in boost pressure, plus I'd expect a lack of power at higher revs, possibly combined with more smoke than normal.

Again, somebody competent looking at live data should be able to highlight the area of the problem.

Further update:

I've been into Citroen for a diagnostics session. I'm £150 lighter, and once again no fault codes were found. There is swarf in the fuel filter, and the mechanic reckons the fuel pump is breaking up, so new (or reconditioned (more likely)) fuel pump will be required. I'll get the timing belt done for the second time too. If I splash the cash on this it had better be the end of it...

I had cruise control activated too. Sometimes the car is surging (in terms of speed) noticeably when on CC. Perhaps a vacuum problem?

Depending how mechanically minded you are, the fuel pump isn't that difficult to change. I did mine on the drive just following the Haynes manual. Hardest bit was locking the flywheel to get the nut holding the auxillary pully on undone. Once you have that off, the timeing belt comes off easily enough and the rest is simple.
Just take your time 😆

My 1st thought when reading this was the clutch switch; when I 1st got an HDi, it always felt a bit hesitant after changing gear; I read up on it and clutch switch is known to cause a lag/flatspot.

Disconnected it and instantly noticed an improvement; simple to do, so well worth a try.

I've had the clutch switch out. No difference. An absolute **** to refit. The switch is awkward, the connector almost impossible.

Isn't the pump after the filter, if its breaking up won't it of blocked the injectors and filled the common rail full of crap. Low mileage replacement engine would be cheaper.

I had a golf do this to me. Loved that car but the day I part exed it was an huge weight off my shoulders. Multiple garage trips and fees for fault reading, changing numerous components, never got to the bottom of it.

At what point does the aggravation stop being worth it?

Got to agree with pictonroad on this one.
It's a 9 year old Berlingo with 130,000 miles on the clock. Just move it on and buy another - they're not exactly rare.
You're daft spending all this time and money on it.

on the other hand - its a slight dead spot. just drive slightly slower or faster till it gives up totally.

as above i doubt i would be sticking a new fuel pump in.its well known that once they start to break down they like to enter the engine and cause all sorts of trouble - if i could find a known good engine im more likely to drop one of them in if its a tidy body and all the suspension/gearbox is good.

you paid 150 quid for diagnostics ? HOLY SHIT.

i bought lexia and peugeot planet plus the box for 60 quid to program some keys after being quoted 128 quid plus vat each and i wanted to do 3 for one car and 2 for another. - still my u480 picks up the codes in the injection system better than peugeot planet or my mates modus - he was a bit miffed that my 12 quid machine could see stuff his 3grand one didnt 😀

If you have metal particles in the fuel filter this will be from the low pressure pump mounted in the fuel tank.

This was an easy fix on my 406 as you lift the rear bench seat up, move the carpet to the side and there is a plastic disk covering an access hole to the top of the fuel tank. Unplug the electrical connectors and fuel lines, unscrew the locating ring and lift the fuel pump out. As per Haynes refitting is the reverse of removal 😀

When the fuel pump was on the way out it did cause some running issues but mostly it was a case of giving it a thump with a piece of wood to coax it into life when first starting up.

Edit: be careful when changing your fuel filter, very easy for those particles to end up on the wrong side of the filter and they then end up in your high pressure fuel pump or injectors, not cheap.

remove the whole filter housing and clean out thoroughly, fit the new filter then refit to the car.

Theoretically it can come from the HP pump as the fuel goes back into the tank from the fuel rail (through a cooler) and they could then pass through the tank pump back up to the filter.

But I would normally go with the tank pump being the suspect one first and I don't know if there is any brass bits in the HP pump.

you could put a small clear inline filter on the return pipe just before the tank to see if it's the HP pump or just swap out the tank pump for a new one and see if that does the trick. Fully clean out the diesel filter too (carefully).

There is a return from the injectors to the fuel filter. I would do a test on the injectors and check how much they bypass and you should see some of the diesel and if there is any rubbish in there. Personally I wouldn't pump any more money into a car with 130k on it.

There is no lift pump in the tank. This Berlingo runs the Siemens system, and it is only the Bosch pumps that use an in-tank lift pump.

The injectors currently seem fine, and were tested a couple of weeks ago and were all within specification.

hello there happened upon this forum by accident recognise your symptoms from a couple of hdis I have worked on in the past cant remember if it put up a code or not but I traced the fault by analysing live data on the lexia at low engine revs when aproaching junctions etc this problem showed up as very erratic fuel pressure readings which I knew were not the actual readings of the rail I suspected a wiring issue either corrosion or arcing of the fuel rail pressure wiring wiggling the wires with the car running showed the fault .rail pressure sensor sits under fuel rail with a 3 wire connector this is hard to unclip!this wire is a short patch wire and is next joined about 6" straight down clipped just above the sump unclip this as well remove wirng harness and inspect it hopefully you will find the insulation of the wiring has rubbed through and intermittently shorting on starter motor. Get a new 1 or repair it with heat shrink and new plastic conduit hope this helps cheers

Thanks. I will check. I know where the fuel pressure sensor is, and I know that there is no way I can get it unplugged with my hand. I will need to find a slender armed assistant.

If this is the answer, then it is the equivalent of finding the Holy Grail. Thanks.

hi

had a similar problem on the wifes 1.6tdci (pug engine) on her fiesta.

limp mode, lack of power...

turned out the fuel filter i had changed had a hair line crack in the plastic and was letting fuel out causing air in the system

changed it for another one, sorted.

maybe worth a look?!

In case i missed it in an earlier post, have you hade a look at the c4 owners forum on the net ? they mention similar faults on the c4 1.6 hdi and some of the other Citroens too. The C4 diesels sometimes get problems with blocked fuel filters whixh can cause the on-board diagnostics to throw up an "anti-pollution system faulty" message, which sounds like the c4 equivalent of your problem....the filter about £40 to change so it may be a good place to start. Hope this helps. Good luck.

Thanks for the tips, but it is definitely not the fuel filter.

I found when I have done this before the best way is to get a piece of stiff metal rod about 18" long bend a right angle on it about 3/4" long and file a flat edge on it to get underneath the clip then push it down this will also help pulling the wiring back up through as you know access is a little restricted!it pays also to put electrical grease on the connectors before refitting and make sure the rubber gaskets on the connectors are in good condition as both the grease and the gaskets help prevent micro vibrations opening up the electrical connectors.

An update. I have bunged half a can of JLM EGR cleaner through the intake manifold. I was expecting to see clouds of guff out the exhaust. Instead, nothing. Massively underwhelming...

However, after a few days the effect seems to have been massive. An apparent cure. I can't even get the hesitation if I try.

The last fill I bunged a 1:200 mix of JASC FB 2-stroke in with the diesel. Maybe I'll get cleaner, quieter running, maybe better mpg, maybe nothing...

Good result!

Well mrs tr reported similar symptoms on our newest blingo.

Its a 1.9 dw8 but iirc shares a very similar bodged up egr valve.

My pug is blocked off because they are a shit design.

Didn get round to the blingo yet. Tonight i had a drive and it was like a colapsed fuel filter or colapsed boost hose (but nae turbo) just before 2k rpm at about 1/8th throttle..... Right when the egrs doing its job. Only it couldnt due to crazy big lumps of carbon i just cleaned out with degreaser and a toothbrush. Absolutel disgustig job. Must get round to blocking it off and decatting

Much better for the engine. Ill save the planet by doing less miles and changing my car less;)

Test drove after cleaning egr. Hesitaion totally gone at all throttle position

No doubt that can of stuff has helped but i suggest pullin the inlet off the egr ad seeinhpw much gunk build up there is- put a glove on first that stuff doesnt wash out for toffee

The reason I was sceptical about it being the EGR was that when I installed a blanking plate, the hose into the inlet manifold wasn't that bad. A sooty finger certainly, but nowhere near constricted or blocked. The blanking plate caused limp mode, so I had to remove it.

The EGR bungs in soot, and the crankcase breather oily, sticky fumes. One or the other would be bearable, but both together are madness.

Aye the metal pipe not to bad for me but around the flap in the intak was all bunged up and the flap wouldnt move under light vacuum. Hence why it ok when you boot it

I guess the 2.0 has more sophisticated electrics than the 1.9

I get better fuel economy and the engine feels smoother/freer to rev when driving without it

I don't think I can blank on a 2.0hdi with a Siemens ECU. Apparently you can blank the EGR and delete the EGR from the ECU on the Bosch systems, but with the Siemens blanking results in limp mode.

Ah ok no experiance with the 2.0 my self.

I need to take my inlet manifold off too clean that out:/