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I have this magical merino beanie that when worn instantly perks you up and banishes all forms of tiredness due to the special alignment of the 10 micron fibres with the earths magnetic field and it neutralises static and background RFI interference from all known interplanetary bodies, i could sell you one for the special price of £199.99 but i have a special offer for today only, two for £299.99 with free postage.
Are you a believer?…….
^ is paypal gift ok? 🙂
Sure, or western union money transfer, you may also be interested in an sure-fire investment opportunity, i am trying to breed a form of merino hamster, there are thousand of hamsters in cages up and down the country with a limited lifespan but a rampant breeding cycle. Cross breed the Hamster with the Merino sheep and i'm sure you can see the investment potential that is currently being wasted.
My uncle in Nigeria will handle all the investment monies, do not be alarmed as we have already successfully raised funds for a kickstarter campaign to sell sand to the Middle East.
Sounds ideal, just the opportunity I'm looking for.
I could then sell the idea to other investors, who can then sell to their friends and family ( after all, who doesn't like ickle fluffy creatures )
If you were to draw the concept on paper it would work a sort of pyramid shape 🙂
Oh, pyramid scheme - that's bad........
I know, the ickle fluffy equilateral triangle [s]program[/s] opportunity .
I think these things are the equivalent of "browsing Ebay when drunk, and i've just brought some tat i don't actually need" but catering for people who's first name is sheikh......
It's also worth nothing that plenty of test standards for digital transmission fidelity exist, and exactly none of them are used by people selling / reviewing cables like this for audio applications! Yet, if you buy a cable to link two servers together, then chances are the error rates are fully defined...........
This cable is like 650b.
Spending money on stuff you really don't need as the stuff you already own does the job fabulously
Is the hi-fi business really is the last bastion of the troll, or do these people have genuine learning difficulties?
I think you're the troll, for obvious reasons.
How much does the machine cost that tests whether the audio quality is improved and more importantly, how much additional fun you're having?
The idiocy of the audiofool (sic) world is just embarrassing. There's a company out there making kettle leads for $1000+ which some bass players are buying to make their amps sound better...
Any sparkys here fancy setting up a business with me to replace ring mains in people's houses with high quality oxygen free copper conductors? I'm sure if people will pay 1k for a kettle lead you could charge 20k or so for doing something which would make far more difference to the sound quality. Though of course with a ring, careful thought would have to be given to which direction to lay the cables.
Could you undercut [url= https://www.russandrews.com ]Russ Andrews as linked here?[/url], if so then i'll be your sales rep……….commission based of course 😉
How much does the machine cost that tests whether the audio quality improved
I don't think science has managed to make a magicmeter yet.
I gave a lift home to someone this week, he was impressed with the selection of CD's in my car and insisted I 'auditioned' his naim kit when I got to his house. I dubiously agreed as I needed a poo and didn't think I could bake it till I got home. It took him 15 minutes to allow the player to 'warm up' before he allowed the volume to go up and then complained recently humidity could have an effect but I was going to be in for a treat. Sure the CD sounded good but the obsessiveness took the enjoyment out if it.
Undercut? I'm not sure you understand the market well enough to work as my sales rep...
[u]somafunk [/u]may be a mute point
nice one.
If you're using Audio grade Ethernet cable the music won't come truly alive unless your music server uses [url= http://www.hifidelit.com/products/ppa-red-sata-cable ]Audio grade SATA cables[/url] at £180 a shot. 😯
I was going to highlight "[i]mute[/i]" my point but thought that'd be far too obvious, glad it amused some peeps :-)….see all you stw forum doubters?, folk actually read thread posts before replying.
Audio grade SATA cables at £180 a shot.
That is just ridiculous.
What you really need are hifi grade hard drive platters....
I 'auditioned' his naim kit when I got to his house
Naim is modified Philips kit, sames B&O, Arcam and numerous other suppliers.
I have heard a lot of people slag B&O for being pretty Philips equipment, but even Naim is just Philips at heart.
Nonononooooo
You can't slag Naim off on here!
It's the substitute religion of choice for many.
You can't slag Naim off on here!
I'm not slagging it off!
Just saying it's based on Philips components. 🙂
It is isn't it?
The root of the problem is that there is no easy way to assess absolute sound quality, it's very subjective. This Audiophile nonsense is very much like the Emperor's Clothes, e.g.
Timing and coherence are the two really easy differences to hear, but like other interconnects it’s simple to spot the differences in levels of detail, tonal quality and dynamic performance.
i.e. If you can't hear the difference you're a moron.
That's not strictly true - all of those things can be measured fairly accurately, using, in some cases, a number of scales. That said - it's a real faff to measure them, and the differences between the measurements are difficult to actually assess unless you have some kind of reference - as with many audio things, they mean little to nothing in a vacuum.
<geek>
[b]Timing[/b] - at this level, you'd be measuring this on the basis of system/interconnect jitter, which is related to the quality of the clocking of the system. This *can* have an impact on the consistency of playing back the samples - these should be precisely every whatever milliseconds depending on sample rate - if this drifts, due to poor clocking, then it can impact on phase alignment, but only really when you have more than one cable or system transmitting audio - i.e. it's of little to no consequence here, because we're only dealing with a single stereo/greater than stereo signal, not multiple signals from multiple sources being brought together - like in a mixer. You can measure jitter pretty easily by checking the consistency of the sample data in the cable - this is something you can do straight out of the cable itself.
[b]Coherence[/b] - I'm assuming this means phase coherence, rather than anything else, and this again, can be an issue, if the left channel arrives at a different time from the right channel then you end up with a skewed stereo image, and potentially comb filtering impacting on the overall tone. However, a cable wouldn't improve or deteriorate this - even in a system (like optical cables) where the stereo data is sent serially - i.e. left content followed by right content - then the problems could only occur in the reconstruction of it, not the interconnects. You can measure this by comparing the input signal and the output signal - although isolating the cable would be basically impossible - it needs convertors etc. to be able to do the calculations, and then if you changed the cable you'd need to take into account the changes in the rest of the circuit because of the changed cable - but you could come out with something - it's unlikely to change, but you'd have a difference.
[b]Detail[/b] - this is probably the most bollocks on there, the only thing I can think of is total harmonic distortion (THD) to measure this…but a digital cable would need to be seriously crap to have an impact on it, in fact, the point at which a digital cable is impacting on this, you'd end up with no signal.
[b]Tonal Quality[/b] This is easily measured by comparing signal in to signal out and identifying areas of difference. This doesn't mean that change = bad, because I know a heap of people who choose stuff (mixers, EQ, compressors, speakers) because they do change the sound for the better.
[b]Dynamic performance[/b] This is crudely measured as an RMS average over time, or more usefully using Bob Katz K system, it has a specific calibration process and meter ballistics to follow, meaning you can compare apples with apples through the system and give you a good idea about relative dynamic performance.
Naim is modified Philips kit, sames B&O, Arcam and numerous other suppliers.
The thing is that some modifications can make a huge difference to the performance of audio kit whilst others give no benefit or make it worse. The problem with the vast amount of snake oil on offer is that the good gets lost amongst the bad. Meyer Sound used to buy in JBL compression drivers which they then modified by changing the compliance of the suspension on the diaphragm - that little tweak causes uneven frequency response which has to be corrected by complementary filters (so it needs to be an active cab) but it reduces the distortion ten-fold, which is a VAST improvement. Unsurprisingly they patented it!
I haven't heard any Naim kit in years but I wouldn't be surprised to come across very clever improvements to stock parts in there. It is so frustrating that the exploitative pedallers of bs audio accessories ruin the industry for anyone honestly trying to produce a superior sounding product.
CD quality audio reproduction at the standard sample rate of 44.1 kHz and 16bit sample rate gives 1411Kbps, from what has been drummed into me that's 2 (# audio channels) × 44100 samples/sec x 16 bits/sample = 1,411.2 kbit of information per second, rather more than 320Kpbs.
That's a dishonest comparison because they work on fundamentally different systems - using pulse code modulation to store audio data is inherently wasteful, so all the data included isn't always needed, just because it's always there.
Meyer Sound used to buy in JBL compression drivers which they then modified by changing the compliance of the suspension on the diaphragm - that little tweak causes uneven frequency response which has to be corrected by complementary filters (so it needs to be an active cab) but it reduces the distortion ten-fold, which is a VAST improvement
What does that mean? 😀
I would wager that in a blind test the vast majority of people could not tell the difference between a £1000 "entry level" hifi system and a £10000 Naim system.
Ah, you've gone and ruined it now. 😀
I've never heard two systems that sounded the same, regardless of how much or little they cost.
I would wager that in a blind test the vast majority of people could not tell the difference between a £1000 "entry level" hifi system and a £10000 Naim system.
Diminishing returns, innit.
Unless you're a teenager who thinks that Dr Dre playing out of your iPhone is the height of audio reproduction, You could have an earectomy and still tell the difference between a £50 'speaker' and a £200 Matsui special, and between said "my first hifi" and a £1000 setup. Between £1000 and £10,000? Not so much, I'd hazard.
I've never heard two systems that sounded the same, regardless of how much or little they cost.
All other things (eg, room layout) aside, this is a truism. I once spent an afternoon in Richer (back when they did such things) auditioning kit before purchase. What I learned that day is that the difference between near-identical products from different manufacturers is very, very pronounced. Comparing, say, a Yamaha amp to a Sony one, they're both very good but they sound completely different.
Cougar - Moderator
Between £1000 and £10,000? Not so much, I'd wager.
Unless daft systems are chosen, the difference should be significant and obvious.
I should have rephrased that.
Of course they sound different. But which sounds "better"?
In a blind test I would wager that most could not tell you which is the £1000 and which is the £10,000.
In a blind test I would wager that most could not tell you which is the £1000 and which is the £10,000.
It would depend whether the listener cared. There is a point where some people wouldn't care whether there was a difference or not. You are never going to be able to convince them to care and they've already made their mind up before.
I'm not slagging it off!Just saying it's based on Philips components.
It is isn't it?
No, not really.
I haven't spent much time on here recently and reading this thread I now remember why.
You lot are so far up your ****ing arses it's a wonder you haven't got indegestion.
If you want rich full range sound, that is as if you're there whilst it's being recorded, surely the solution is studio cans.
The money saved could go on bikes, babes, bouncy castles and baboon adoption.
Sound, aye
I'm in.
You lot are so far up your **** arses it's a wonder you haven't got indegestion.
*confused*
What is "up your **** arses" about ridiculing a £1600 digital cable??
Are you saying a sensible "not up his own arse" grounded person thinks that is an entirely reasonable amount?
geetee1972 - Member
I haven't spent much time on here recently and reading this thread I now remember why.You lot are so far up your **** arses it's a wonder you haven't got [s]indegestion[/s] indigestion.
That 'whooshing' sound you just heard? That the point you've just missed going right over your head.
Vis-à-vis differences between systems, I used to go the Bristol HiFi show, and a couple of the London ones, back in the 80's when I sold the stuff, and I clearly remember a couple of systems on demo, one had a Pink Triangle deck, and MS speakers, can't remember the amp or arm now, but even then it was up in the five to six thousand quid mark, and there was another little system based, I think, around a Rega Planar deck, B&W speakers, and again, I can't remember the amp, but the total cost I don't think topped fifteen hundred.
The PT system was horrid, just really harsh and over-bright, the cheaper system I could have listened to all day, it was smooth and warm, but still had all the detail and dynamics that you could wish for.
Was the problem with the first system to do with the TT, or the speakers? Dunno, but I do recall reading that PT t/tables could be rather 'bright', over-emphasising the top-end, as could Mordant-Short speakers, which shows that getting the mix wrong, even when money is no object, means a really unpleasant listening experience.
I left that demo after one track, I couldn't listen to any more
The point being, you can clearly hear a difference, it just might not be what you expected.
And cables?
Pah! Voodoo, innit.
I'm not slagging it off!
Just saying it's based on Philips components.It is isn't it?
No, not really.
Yes it is.
[url= http://www.dutchaudioclassics.nl/Overview-Philips-TDA1541-based-cdplayers/ ]Philips TDA1541 based CD players[/url]
I haven't heard any Naim kit in years but I wouldn't be surprised to come across very clever improvements to stock parts in there
maybe some blue stickers, er I mean tuning devices
http://www.machinadynamica.com/machina47.htm
or some stones, sorry resonance control devices
http://www.machinadynamica.com/machina17.htm
If this £1600 Ethernet cable can make such a difference, I wonder if I can improve my Wi-Fi similarly?
Perhaps if I cryogenically treat the antennae?
Yes it is.Philips TDA1541 based CD players
But that's just a list of CDPs that use the Philips DAC (probs at the time the best, and even now well respected) and transport, a bit like a list of those that use Burr-Brown.
It isn't just the DAC - its the overall design and the other components in the analog stage that will determine overall sound quality.
So I'd say no it's not just a Philips
So I'd say no it's not just a Philips
Never said that. What I said was:
Just saying it's based on Philips components.
Which seems pretty much the same as:
But that's just a list of CDPs that use the Philips DAC (probs at the time the best, and even now well respected) and transport, a bit like a list of those that use Burr-Brown.
An AMG Mercedes is different to a "normal" Mercedes but it is still based on "just" a Mercedes.
The root of the problem is that there is no easy way to assess absolute sound quality, it's very subjective. This Audiophile nonsense is very much like the Emperor's Clothes, e.g.
Timing and coherence are the two really easy differences to hear, but like other interconnects it’s simple to spot the differences in levels of detail, tonal quality and dynamic performance.i.e. If you can't hear the difference you're a moron.
That's not strictly true - all of those things can be measured fairly accurately, using, in some cases, a number of scales. That said - it's a real faff to measure them, and the differences between the measurements are difficult to actually assess unless you have some kind of reference - as with many audio things, they mean little to nothing in a vacuum.
I stand by original point. There is no absolute measure of sound quality, e.g. this system is 84/100 on the "Absolute Sound Quality" scale. There are two sides to it, the electrical/mechanical/acoustic response of the equipment and then there is the psycho-acoustic response of the human listening to it. No metric in hi-fi/pro audio brings these two things together. As you stated, there are a lot of audio metrics but they're all measurements of just the hi-fi system. Nothing uses psycho-acoustics, something which is quite well understood.
However, metrics that combine the system response and the human response are in use elsewhere in audio, for example, mobile phone audio quality.
I was at a lecture by John Watkinson (Art of Digital Audio) last year, run by AES, where he challenged the use of the current metrics to measure loudspeakers, was quite interesting.
Hi gobuchul, I see what you're saying, you also said "Naim is modified Philips kit, sames B&O, Arcam and numerous other suppliers"
To me modified philips kit would mean say take the circuit diagram and tweek it, which is like the merc analogy.
Now I could be wrong, but won't the hifi manusfacturers you mentioned be simply using the DAC (philips in this case) and designing their own circuit around it, building it with their selection of components.. no?
However, metrics that combine the system response and the human response are in use elsewhere in audio, for example, mobile phone audio quality.
Isn't that more about "we're throwing away a huge amount of info - lets test which bits of the human voice people prefer to keep"?
bellerophon - I'm just trolling! In the nicest possible way 🙂
I have never known a brand that creates such strong responses as Naim does when criticised!
I still stand by the "modified" Philips kit though, the transport and the DAC are really the "prime movers" in a cd player, the other bits are the modifications. Doesn't mean I believe Naim is not superior to B&O though. Although between Arcam and Naim, for example, at a similar price point, it would be very personal and subjective.
Although what you actually build a CD deck out of to justify £20k for it is beyond me. Do you use unicorn tears for lube or something?
The law of diminishing returns in hifi must mean the difference between a £1000 and £20,000 cd deck, is so small, then it almost a complete waste of money for the average person.
A bit like riding a £10k pro bike instead of a £1.5k bike in a sportive.
I don't think science has managed to make a magicmeter yet.
Evolution gave us ears, and we all know about the results of double blind trials when it comes to audio cables...