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This gives a little more context than other articles I’ve seen.
https://bikebiz.com/new-owner-for-orange-bikes/
Without Dave Loughran stepping in to buy the remaining stock that was the only future Stanton had.
The irony here being that this was probably funded by the Planet X MBO ... in turn presumably funded by the £6.3M loan from Santander ( https://bikebiz.com/planet-xs-1-8-million-list-of-creditors-shown-in-companies-house-update/). ... which in turn is probably what pushed Planet X into administration and was presumably defaulted.
Im glad to see them back in business but as many have pointed out there does seem to be a legal sleight of hand around ownership of which bit meaning someone else is picking up the losses from the taxpayerr, to banks suppliers etc.
I’m pointing out some important facts that STW decided to omit in the original story, ie, that Stanton and 1bike4life shared a factory which puts a very different spin on things (assuming that’s the case, still not had that confirmed by anyone who wasn’t German).
I’m not going to claim that I know what happened at Stanton. But this isn’t a great argument is it. Single track didn’t mention a fact. Although it might not be a fact. So that might be a his reason they didn’t mention it.
Back to Orange
I have at times got really cross about the whole liquidation thing as a scam. A friend sold a successful company to fund his retirement. It then went bust in about 3 years. I spoke to an employee who thought it was deliberate. Suddenly all the directors were driving round in range rovers and spending lots of money on perks, all charged back to the business. Nothing like that happened before the sale. Fun and games until they wind up and the debts are cancelled.
But from what I see the Orange brand didn’t set out to loose money and benefit from cancelling the debt. Things went wrong and a best way forward has been found. It’s terrible for the people who loose out. But ceasing to trade would damage more people not less
Stanton, via STW, gave us part of the story with the intention of creating a pile on for both 1bike4life and bike24. And it worked, briefly (those Stantons are now back on bike24). If you go hunting through the German bike press you get another side of the story that isn't quite as clear cut as the version we got here.
Personally, I like to get the whole story before drawing conclusions, even if that involves seeing what the foreigners are saying.
You don't and you get abusive if anyone questions the 'official' version from the good honest British sources.
I'm not sure anyone stole anything, my understanding is at the time no one owned the European and international rights to the name / brand / IP of Stanton.
Someone saw an opportunity to own a bankrupt brand and ran with it. It just so happens that at the same time someone else was also picking through the bones of the bankrupt company and resurrected it.
I had to look at the Ceeway website based on the comment above, and it's fantastic 😀
https://www.ceeway.com/index.htm
Someone saw an opportunity to own a bankrupt brand and ran with it.
Fair enough. But 1bike4life then passed off the Taiwanese frames they bought, with the fake "Stanton" labeling they applied, to Bike24 as being made in the UK by Dan (see pic). I suspect we haven't had any update since last summer because its with the lawyers and I doubt Dan has the funds to pursue in the same way Specialized do.
However the passing off is clear evidence to me that it was just a cynical attempt by 1bike4life to raid the history of Stanton for some cash, and when they got caught doubled down. Or you can believe, like BruceWee does, that they were heroically trying to save jobs in the Taiwanese factory.
"The Bikes are made in their own factory in Derbyshire" No they are not. They are made in Taiwan. Thats dishonest passing off. If they are lying about that. What else are they lying about?
<br />
But this thread is about Orange. Brilliant news they live on. I bought one of the first P7s in 1991. Loved that bike!
Ok, My prev post was backed up by clear evidence... but if you must...
But then Dan wasn’t 100% honest when he said a mysterious 3rd party bought the frames and then sold them to 1bike4life. Maybe it happened like that, but it’s the biggest coincidence I’ve ever seen that the 3rd party just happened to sell the frames to a company that used the same factory as Stanton (again, no one who isn’t German has confirmed that they did in fact use the same factory and I’m quite happy to be corrected if this isn’t the case).
Evidence please? And not some vague reference or flowery whimsy. Thanks
On the one hand we have a plucky British brand which has had its IP stolen by a greedy mustache twirling German villain so he could buy a new superyacht.
On the other we have a German hero who stole a dead brand from an oligarch in order to feed his starving frame builders.
Again evidence please, or thats just utterly irrelevant and you are breaking rule 1 (I really dont care if the people are German, UK or Taiwan - it makes no difference)?
Because at the moment it looks like Stanton’s administrators stiffed the factory for 800 frames plus tooling (which I’m guessing is quite a lot of money)
Dan has been really clear that he intended to make sure everything with suppliers is square. Again please provide evidence to the contrary?
But yeah, back to my original point, these phoenix deals are always going to make things messy for someone, no matter how simple and clean it seems to be for the ‘new’ owners.
Agreed. Which is why I haven't commented on whats going on with Orange because i have no evidence. But with Stanton its well documented. Unless you can provide evidence, which I dont think you can? Maybe let it go?
Bloody hell you lot are tiresome, just go back to one of the Stanton discussions to discuss Stanton
Yes. Fair point. Sorry! I just think comments about Stanton are unfair. Wont post again
EDIT Sorry - they are still trolling so I will...
Evidence?
Well, there are 800 frames floating around. As far as evidence goes that's about it.
Oh, and your evidence is the screenshot, I guess? I'm not sure when it was taken but it's not what I'm seeing on that page:
https://www.bike24.com/brands/stanton-bikes
Stanton Bikes - Classic and Traditional Steel Mountain Bike Frames
Stanton mountain bikes come from the same bike manufacture as Rennstahl, Falkenjagd and Parapera and cultivate traditional frame materials such as steel and titanium. They stand for purist and classic frame geometries, timeless design and minimalist construction - for example, the frames come with external cable stops, making maintenance and component upgrades a breeze.
Apart from that it's he said, she said. Dan is saying one thing. The Germans are saying another. I have no evidence to prove that what the Germans are saying is true anymore than you have any evidence that what Dan is saying is true. That's why I'm saying it would be nice if a magazine with contacts in the industry could clear up what we are hearing from both sides.
All I know for sure is no factory is going to want to get a reputation for selling the IP of one customer to another which is what this factory seems to be doing. Something is not quite right with anyone's story.
I know everyone feels like Dan is their special mate and his story shouldn't be questioned but if you take a step back and look at it objectively it doesn't quite add up.
OK, I'm sure the Orange resurrection will go swimmingly and no one who ends up out of pocket will directly or indirectly cause any issues for the 'new' Orange.
Oooh it appears the mods have retrospectively deleted my comments discussing the issues of bankruptcy, media corruption and IP lies.
all pretty relevant to the conversation….
sorry but you can’t believe anything written on this website now.
Neil SuperstarComponents
[MOD] That you posted AFTER we asked that the thread stay on topic, which is Orange, not Stanton.
I thought this was going to happen, then that thing about seeking to sell the business came out from the administrators and it seemed like it wasn't the case,.. but actually it is. Oh the drama. Publishing that the business is seeking a buyer is part of this sort of scheme?
I guess they actually wanted to keep this under wraps until it was done but forbes went and published the article and now you have multiple articles on pinkbike with the same highly original comments as usual.
I hope that the debtors list is mostly the big distributors so the effect on smaller suppliers is less but I have a feeling a bunch of people won't be too chuffed with this. But I guess they probably weren't going to get paid either way but it's still got to sting and there will be bad blood.
Might be an idea to wait for some actual facts before accusing Orange of ripping people off yeah?
If the guess work does prove to be correct it's certainly not cool that innocent companies lose out but on the other hand it's preferable to all the Orange staff being made redundant and the innocent companies still not getting anything. Who knows, they might get some sort of payment anyway?
I assume non of us have been buying anything from CRC/Wiggle at stupidly low prices recently? Can't imagine the people who manufactured and supplied the below cost items getting their money back?
I assume non of us have been buying anything from CRC/Wiggle at stupidly low prices recently? Can’t imagine the people who manufactured and supplied the below cost items getting their money back?
In the net!
Anyway, businesses going into administration and restructuring happens all the time. In many cases it’s the lesser of two evils and for lots of suppliers it’s better to write-off some/all of the debt and still have a customer to trade with going forward, than to write off some/all of the debt and have no customer to trade with.
The harsh reality is that if any other business is so exposed to one customer that that customer defaulting puts them out of business, they need to have a a good, hard look at their business practices and how they manage risk. Certainly if you’re that exposed to one customer you’d want to think very carefully about extending them credit, and if you do you’d be well advised to have water tight trade credit insurance to protect you if they default. If you haven’t, and they do, then quite frankly it’s on you
Might be an idea to wait for some actual facts before accusing Orange of ripping people off yeah?
Quite. And none of my business anyway. But I’d still be interested to know, I could well sympathise with the situation. As a small business owner who has seen the way a deal can become very skewed in the favour of one party or another when very unexpected situations arise I could well sympathise. Inflation, energy, trade, etc has all been very unpredictable in the past few years.
Make them reliable, people don't buy an orange for lightweight, they buy them partly for the simple design and ease of maintenance, all that is lost if the frame cracks, as has happened to many of my local riding pals multiple times. A new frame or a new swingarm with a respray is no good.
Back this up with a better warranty that gives peace of mind to the original owner.
I'm local (but my nose is normal) and would love to own an orange but until the above issues are fixed there's no reason to buy one.
The "actual facts" are that it's just business, innit?
Having been at a fair few companies that have gone into administration—hang on, am I the common factor?—there are winners and losers each time but there's always the same 'X is ripping off Y' or 'Z is just saving his own ass' arguments made. There are more losers than winners fo' sure, but that's just the way doing things properly by calling in the administrators works. At face value it all stinks, but that's capitalism for you.
Good luck for the future guys and here's to a great 2024 hopefully.
Unless Ashley Ball is willing to admit that he is the reason the business went into administration and learn from his mistakes then the metaphorical can has just been kicked down the road.
Yes the cycle trade is having a hard time, other business's are managing to keep there head above water though. In 2015 when Ball purchased Orange the bikes were getting good reviews in the media, they were sponsoring WC Dh'ers and most importantly had a huge dealership network in the UK. The business has been on a steady decline since then.
I believe Ball purchased Orange because it was an opportunity for him to take control of his biggest customer and therefore secure business for Bairstows. Without Wade & Noble at the helm though the brand seemed to stop developing/evolving. I might be wrong but I believe Bairstows/Ashley Ball had no experience in bike frame manufacturing until Steve Wade approached them with plans for a swing-arm made out of sheet aluminium. It seems to me that Orange became so committed to folded aluminium sheet construction not necessarily because it was the best thing for Orange but because it was the best thing for Bairstows.
You only need to look at the materials and manufacturing techniques Orange had used before Ball bought Orange to see that the brand was not tied to any particular material/technique. I'm pretty sure that just before Orange was sold to Ball either Wade or Noble said that Orange were about 2 years away from being to manufacture out of carbon in the UK.
Not sure I agree with that - The folded sheet construction is Orange's USP - before they sold it was their USP too - the rumours of carbon frames seemed to be nothing but rumours.
Recently they have added the linkage frames which seemed to go down quite well, they certainly reviewed well, so 'innovation' isn't entirely non existent and their geometry is spot on.
Personally I think price is the absolute barrier here, not the design which personally I am a fan off (other than the ugly hanging 'gut' one one of the new models)
Refine choice, drop the price and I believe they will sell.
HIP HIP HOORAY!
Here's to hopefully using round tube shapes
Without Wade & Noble at the helm though the brand seemed to stop developing/evolving.
Having owned plenty, that's simply not true.
As for a carbon bike, they did do a prototype but that was waaaaay back. Guess going down the Hope route might not be a bad idea though? Be interesting to see what they come up with.
Without Wade & Noble at the helm though the brand seemed to stop developing/evolving.
As above, I really don't recognise this in reality. I'd say they've possibly been too innovative in recent years.
They now have various different frame designs (single pivot, linkage SP, the one with the storage box), they have some of the longest chainstays in the galaxy and their lightweight eeb looked like it could be the best on the market.
Like we said on a previous thread, they've possibly become a bit too niche, fallen off people's radars and their previous customers are on eebs - but I feel like rider tastes are coming back to simplicity and there's potential for Orange to regain ground if they can make the pricing a bit more palatable.
As above, I really don’t recognise this in reality. I’d say they’ve possibly been too innovative in recent years.
I'd say that in recent years Orange have been ahead, not behind, the curve in many areas... not least when it comes to their range of ebikes. Perhaps they've been doing too much at once... rather than too little. But they haven't been standing still. Not moving to carbon moulding in China can been seen by many as "standing still"... but personally I find that kind of development boring and glad they haven't gone down that route and have been pressing forward in their own way. Crossing all my fingers for them for the future.
To get the discussion back on track - After the announcement of the news and the flooding of the used marketplace with overpriced Orange bikes with people hoping to prey on the nostalgia "always wanted an Orange now I worry I won't ever be able to own one" market, hopefully we see the used prices drop on S/H Orange offerings.<br /><br />I'm quite fancying a hardtail for days I just want to get the miles in, they call that XC now don't they? And seen a lovely clockwork outside of my local in summer last year, been fancying one since.
the flooding of the used marketplace with overpriced Orange bikes with people hoping to prey on the nostalgia “always wanted an Orange now I worry I won’t ever be able to own one” market,
todays installment of things that didnt happen... 😉
todays installment of things that didnt happen… 😉
Anecdotal surely, as my FB Marketplace is set to look within 50km of my location, but going for 1 or 2 Orange bikes once every other month to 16 appearing on there within days of the news surely seemed coincidental. Not sure whos gonna pay £1500 for a 2014 Crush just cause it has new hopes on it and a colour matching crankset, they didn't even go for that brand new back then did they?
I have no desire to sell my 1997 Orange P7. Well, unless anyone wants to offer me £1500 for it?
Anyone?...
The actual selling price of second hand Orange bikes is same as everyone else, low.
I believe Ball purchased Orange because it was an opportunity for him to take control of his biggest customer and therefore secure business for Bairstows.
Isn't it more like Bairstows was a Wade family business, Ash is in some way part of that family (son in-law or something?), and he ended up with Bairstows at some point and then Orange too?
Either way, really easy to blame one guy for it all going wrong if you ignore all of the other variables.
If there is something that needs fixing about how LTD companies are able to operate its the ability to seemingly be able to absolve themselves of debt
You know that's the textbook definition of Limited Liability, right? If it doesn't work like this, then folks are going to start to get personally chased for business debts, and ultimately that's stuff like repossession and folks made homeless. Would you start a business if that was the risk if it failed? Yes, there are dodgy companies/folks who take advantage, but that's a minor downside to what is otherwise a social good - businesses opening and creating wealth and investment.
I love this website. A business goes bust because sales, consumer demand and market share have all fallen through the floor and the advice from here is 'you're doing great, carry on with what you're doing just lower the price'. Lower the price you say, why didn't we think of that?
1st thing - You may be surprised to hear but Orange bikes aren't really expensive compared to everything else on the showroom floor. Pick any bike in the Orange range and compare it to the equivalent (component spec) from another brand. The SRP's will be pretty close.
£5,000 from Spesh gets you a GX equipped bike with high spec Rock Shox suspension and aluminium frame. Stumpjumper Evo Elite Alloy.
£4,500-£5,200 from Trek gets you a GX equipped bike with mid tier Fox suspension and an aluminium frame. Slash 9 & Fuel EX 8.
£4,800 from Orange gets you an SLX equipped bike with mid tier Fox suspension and a hand built in the UK aluminium frame. Stage 6 Evo Pro.
These aluminium anomalies from other brands is not why sales of Orange bikes collapsed, it's because these other brands have carbon, multi-link bikes that start at £4,000 that consumers find more interesting.
Back in the mid noughties Orange mountain bikes were probably outselling Trek and Giant mountain bikes in the UK (by that I mean MTB's with an SRP above £600) I know this based upon purchases from a specific Japanese componentry manufacturer. This is back when an aluminium monocoque frame was considered high end, think Specialized Enduro's circa 02-04. The Orange Sub 5, Missile, Patriot, etc were all considered cutting edge frame designs. I've got no way of proving this but I'd wager that in 07-08 the Orange Five was the best selling bike at it's price points in the UK.
Since 2008 other brands continued to develop and get better with multi-link designs. When was the last time you read a review of a single pivot Orange where the ride quality was said to be better than a multi-link bike, about 2010? In the mid-noughties a carbon mountain bike was crazy money and a high-end aluminium bike from Spesh, Trek, etc were the same price as a high-end aluminium bike from Orange. Other manufacturers continued to experiment with different materials and manufacturing techniques though and we now have carbon framed, multi-link bikes that are cheaper than Orange's aluminium single pivots.
Orange's history was always one of innovation and experimentation up until 2015. Before 2015 Orange had produced full suss frames that were single pivot; multi-pivot, single pivot with a linkage driven shock, URT's, etc etc. Orange had sold bikes that were both handmade in the UK and produced in Asia out of steel, aluminium, titanium and carbon. As has already been mentioned before the company was sold in 2015 Orange stated that they were a couple of years away from manufacturing carbon frames in the UK. Since 2015 though the message from Orange has been it has to be a single-pivot and it has to be made out of aluminium. There was a definite change in the attitude towards product development and how the brand engaged the consumer post 2015. I know recently Orange have launched some linkage driven bikes but that was obviously too little, too late.
I'm not an advocate of one manufacturing method over another, I also don't think that a frame made in Taiwan is necessarily better than a frame made in the UK and vice-versa. What I do think though is that if consumers are no longer purchasing your product because they are choosing a competitors instead then you have to do something about it. History suggests that the management at Orange pre-2015 would have done something about it, as if they didn't move with consumer demand Orange would have still been making URT's in 2015.
Orange rises like a phoenix from the ashes - of it's previous creditors
Lovely that it is up and running agains but the there is something very wrong with the way you can do this leaving a trail of debt behind. Often with a lot of little people being left to pick up the pieces of their businesses
Often with a lot of little people being left to pick up the pieces of their businesses
Without wanting to sound harsh, this is exactly what credit insurance protects against.
Protecting yourself against such potential catastrophic losses should be of primary concern, either with robust credit checking/payment upfront, or insuring against it.