Lifted straight from the link on the first post.
These newly qualified mechanics will then form the backbone of Broken Spoke’s work with women, trans* and non-binary folk; supporting Beryl’s Night (their free monthly workshop sessions for women, trans* and non-binary folk), engaging in the other community programmes in our workshop, and running outreach with the wider community in Oxford.
How much more succinctly can they put it?
What “dodgy ideas” ?
Behind the cosy face of ‘improving’ representation, there are some extremely dodgy ideas lurking, but that goes for all this stuff.
Go on, I'll bite, what extremely dodgy ideas are lurking behind "all this stuff"?
How much more succinctly can they put it?
All that's being said there is that in order to discriminate they must discriminate. Hardly getting to the bottom of things.
Is that it?
Go on, I’ll bite, what extremely dodgy ideas are lurking behind “all this stuff”?
Some dodgy post-modern ideas concerning the nature of power, knowledge and reality if you're interested. That men (especially white men) form an oppressor class thanks to their place in the symbolic apparatus of cultural hegemony.
You read that into this scheme? It is actively trying to reach out to people... it is not blaming anyone for the current lack of diversity, it is just trying to do something about it. Would you rather sit back and argue about why nothing needs to be done about it? Carry on...
The dangers of scoffing_too_much_cake are plain to see...
Some dodgy post-modern ideas concerning the nature of power, knowledge and reality if you’re interested. That men (especially white men) form an oppressor class thanks to their place in the symbolic apparatus of cultural hegemony.
Alternatively, it's just a way to get representation up amongst a user group that is almost invisibly none existent?
Here's a real-life recent example, our cycling club set up a regular women's ride a few years ago, and yes, a handful of grumpy old farts objected that they were excluded from them. There was and never had been any discrimination or exclusion on any club rides in the past yet despite that IIRC the gender split was something like 200:2 in the club. A few years on and the women's ride is as big and sometimes bigger than the equivalent speed men's club run, there's a women's TTT team and it undoubtedly contributed to hosting the IIRC largest-ever women's field at the national Hillclimb championships.
It's probably fair to say without the hard work of a handful of unsung heroes behind the scenes, and occasionally very vocally in front of them, that wouldn't have happened and we'd have been stuck in the same status quo as most cycling clubs.
*they actually weren't, they were just advertised as being lead by women, for women. But that was enough to send these anti-social-justice-warrior-social-justice-warriors into a spin. In fact there's often a handful of male hangers on as it's generally seen as the more social/non-dropping/shorter ride as well.
What is it that makes people respond negatively like this? "How dare they single out trans* and non-binary people for inclusion and exclude middle-aged white males like myself, who've never had any chances or opportunities in life?"..."This could've been the best chance for me to make something of myself, but they will only allow people who don't even have a proper gender to do this course! How dare they?!". I'm baffled and I'd love to know.
In my own experience, women are put off club runs dominated by men because the rides are faster and more competitive.
From a different point of view, before cycling became bourgeois, riding a bike was something working-class people did because they were poor and it was generally as a means to get to work and back. Cycling was a low-status activity and many people still think like that. Mechanical skills were learning out of necessity and acquired as general 'blue collar' skills.
IIRC the article quotes some anecdotes about women having trouble with male mechanics as if that proves some general point. Well, who hasn't!?
@hdesperatebicycle
Because the next step is to exclude white men from jobs and other resources.
You really think so? Holy shit.
You really think so? Holy shit.
Why do you think that is such a leap?
The logic of discrimination to 'improve' diversity is being accepted.
The day there are no jobs for "white men" in cycling might be a little way off, looking at how things look now. If we could get even close to half way there, and then give up, that'll do me.
In my own experience
Apologies didn't realize we were all mansplaining this to you.
Why are you so angry about a course being run for your benefit?
You mean why am I worried about lending support to a logic of discrimination against people like me?
I say in my own experiences because I've heard women moan about group rides dominated by men going too fast. When paces pick up it is rarely women who need to 'compete' to prove themselves too.
Because the next step is to exclude white men from jobs and other resources.
This isn't the problem. It's that some white men won't be a shoe-in for jobs they normally would've been, because another demographic now has a fair chance.
The type of white man whining about this tends to be the one scared of the level playing field.
Here's a question. Why is it a problem per se that most cyclists we see are white and/or male? Who is this harming?
Sorry, but this is just too dull to bother with on a Saturday night in 2021. Go and enjoy what’s left of your weekend. You don’t have to catch up with the changing world, just stay in the 1970s, we’re all quite happy with you doing that.
Why is it a problem per se that most cyclists we see are white and/or male? Who is this harming?
I’ve heard women moan about group rides dominated by men
You're so close to self-awareness.
Here’s a question. Why is it a problem per se that most cyclists we see are white and/or male? Who is this harming?
All the women, overweight and unfit people of both sexes, BAME riders and, indeed, quite a few LGBT people who used to come out on the social rides I organised because they felt so intimidated by clubs dominated by fast white men that they felt they'd never fit in and didn't dare try.
And because I gave them a safe space to start their cycling experience, and was connected to a club that was willing to offer them the next step up, there's now a club with much higher female representation than the BC average (but still nowhere near high enough), has got an openly gay rider smashing it up at regional and national races, has riders who've turned round their type 2 diabetes diagnosis, and reduced their asthma medication and dozens of other success stories.
All because someone made an effort to provide a route for them to try cycling, to grow to love cycling, and to develop the confidence and belief that they could fit into a cycle club still mainly white and male.
And I'm really pleased for you that you've never had to deal with those real and perceived barriers. But don't you dare look down your nose at the people who have to overcome them, or those that offer them the support and routes to do so.
Can I ask if the reverse was true?
What if your chosen job had 247:1 ratio of people unlike you : you.
What it every time you walked into a room you were the only one like you in that room?
What if the recruitment, terms, conditions and culture of that job made it harder for you, the one out of 247?
What if the users of the service also had ingrained concern about you working there, and so put in 5x more complaints and gossiped about you (and not in a nice way?).
Would you feel like a bit of extra support, training for your colleagues and effort to change culture was worthwhile?
@i_scoff_cake
As a white woman, most cyclists being white men harms me. Or harmed me because I don't ride anymore. But when I did, I usually rode on my own.
That's because the only other option was an organised group ride where someone leads and that never really appealed to me.
In one of the groups I tried, the guys were much fitter, faster, more experienced and more competitive than me. And they were always going to be to some extent at least. They ended up letting me know that I wasn't good enough to ride with them and fair enough, I wasn't. I also wasn't having much fun being at the back of the group and just before I would reach the summit of the hill where they were all waiting, they would ride off just before I got there. It wasn't much fun for them waiting either.
So I started going on my own.
This meant I didn't progress as much as I could have done which I sometimes feel a bit sad about.
It also meant when I went on mtb holidays I went on my own. I had one brilliant experience with The White Room. Luckily one other woman who had come with her bf was there too and we rode together all week. One of the men couldn't understand how I had come on my own and didn't have any riding friends and called me Billy No Mates all week. The following year I went on a trip with another company and it was a total disaster. The guys were head and shoulders above me in terms of riding ability and I actually missed the last two days riding as it was no fun at all.
I did meet one guy just out on the trails in the UK and we rode together some times. But then he went to Morzine and I would have loved to have gone too but he didn't invite me because it was a "lads' holiday".
And my friend at the time started riding but she thought she could have a skinful the night before and be good for a day's riding.
I can't say any of the above is the worst thing that's ever happened to me. I can't say I didn't enjoy riding on my own because I did. But it would have been nice to have a few more people to go with at times. What it did mean though is that i was always something of an outsider in the sport.
I'm sure if I'd have lived somewhere more mtb-y I would have found riding companions but I lived in London at the time and rode in the Surrey Hills mostly and I really struggled to find anyone who was committed (as I was then) but also at a similar level.
As I said, I'm a white woman. Although not strictly part of a minority group, being a woman often feels like that, but I can only imagine how excluded other minorities can sometimes feel. Perhaps you could try to do the same.
All the women, overweight and unfit people of both sexes, BAME riders and, indeed, quite a few LGBT people who used to come out on the social rides I organised because they felt so intimidated by clubs dominated by fast white men that they felt they’d never fit in and didn’t dare try.
The problem is that you're conflating competitive spirit and fitness with identity.
Presumably, BAME or gay people don't ever want to ride fast, for example? Only those nasty white men? And all white men are ultra-fit and competative?
What if your chosen job had 247:1 ratio of people unlike you : you.
There is only one me at work. The ultimate minority is one.
You’re so close to self-awareness.
It's got nothing to do with gender identity, however, but fitness, as I said.
You're ducking the question.
What if your industry meant you were the only white male in the room, of 247?
What if your industry meant you were the only white male in the room, of 247?
That sounds like some occasions when I worked in West Africa.
It is about fitness to some extent but there are barriers in place to some people becoming fit or, in the case of this scheme, knowledgeable/competent and any initiative that can help with these has to be a good thing.
Try stop being so defensive and try using a bit of empathy.
OMG, I'm off to get me some cake... You don't seem to be able to follow the first rule.
That sounds like some occasions when I worked in West Africa.
And (making an assumption about your ethnicity based on your previous comments) were there places you wouldn't have ridden a bike through because it might have been perceived as dangerous to you to be the odd one out?
That sounds like some occasions when I worked in West Africa.
And so how did you feel?
And how would you feel if that was here in the UK?
I'll tell you why I ask - one of my colleagues works in early years.
We stood in a room of all the early years educators in his local authority - and we were there only two men.
He deals with all I laid out regularly.
I'm interested if you think we should encourage more men into early years? There's great evidence that there is huge benefit to children to have more men involved in thier early education.
But by your thoughts we should not. No encouragement or support is needed. No change in culture. No actively working to improve/change things. It's just how it is, yeah?
That sounds like some occasions when I worked in West Africa.
How many social clubs did you join?
Sounds immoral to me.
To give one group help that you don't offer to another is unfair. End.
Positive discrimination is immoral.
Maybe all these clever people can suggest a solution to the current issue of under representation then.
Or is that not a thing?
It's funny how these people are so clued up on what discrimination is and how it's against the law but haven't got two paragraphs further down the citizens advice webpage.
Positive action
The law against sex discrimination does allow what is known as positive action in favour of one sex.Positive action is used, often in training or advertising, to make up for a lack of equal opportunity in the past. It is intended to give special encouragement to one sex, without actually discriminating against the other. An example of positive action is giving extra training to female members of staff to help them be able to apply for a particular role if very few or no women have been employed in that role in the past.
So given the objections based on illegal funding from the government seems to be a key sticking point, presumably now you can see it's not against the law you're all on board?
Sounds immoral to me.
To give one group help that you don’t offer to another is unfair. End.
Positive discrimination is immoral.
If you really must see it as such a zero sum game then consider the following.
Would you pay £x for an activity that put you in an environment where odds on you will be the odd one out, likely the butt of various jokes and unwanted advances.
Or would you pay £x for an activity that put you in an environment where everyone is from the same background as you, has similar interests and you all immediately get on like old buddies with plenty of banter.
You'd pic the 2nd. Anyone would.
What if option A offered a discount, sufficient discount that actually you were 50/50 which one you did with your weekend?
Now consider that you don't actually get to choose which one of those options you get to go on. Are they still worth the same to you?
Now consider it's actually the same weekend, you're just going to be subject to a very different environment because of your gender.
Sounds immoral to me.
To give one group help that you don’t offer to another is unfair. End.
Positive discrimination is immoral.
But you are fine with how we have got to where we are today? Decades, centuries of straight white men being given every advantage over women/lgbt/BAME? Only now the aforementioned straight white men hold the vast majority of the power and the disadvantaged communities are trying to redress the balance it’s become immoral?
Sounds immoral to me.
To give one group help that you don’t offer to another is unfair. End.
Positive discrimination is immoral.
I'm struggling to see what is immoral. Do you aspire to live in the world on the left?
@mattsccm
So by that logic, if you were to see two bikers strewn across the trail, the one with a broken leg, bleeding heavily and suffering from concussion, the other with a scrape to their knee, you would give offer the same help to each person as to not do so would be immoral?
Honestly, have a word with yourself.
Sounds immoral to me.
To give one group help that you don’t offer to another is unfair. End.
Positive discrimination is immoral.
But it is available to other groups. All the time. For many years. Now it's available to another group.
So what's your problem with it now then?
When the fire brigade turned up to a house on fire in your street, were you the one insisting every house got the same amount of water put on it?
Jeez, are some people need to pull their y-fronts out of their ass, they're clearly chaffed and cranky. I for one would be quite happy to not have to deal with another douche-bro when getting my steed serviced so more power to them for giving some peeps from the LGBTQ+ community a leg up.
Also, if this initiative offends your masculine sensibilities so much, I'd go get some therapy if I were you, you're a bigger pussy than you probably realise.
I for one would be quite happy to not have to deal with another douche-bro when getting my steed serviced so more power to them for giving some peeps from the LGBTQ+ community a leg up.
Also, if this initiative offends your masculine sensibilities so much, I’d go get some therapy if I were you, you’re a bigger pussy than you probably realise.
That made me chuckle, on both counts. Luckily it's been a few years since I've had to deal with any "douche-bros" at an LBS
In terms of solving the 'problem', here is an interesting chart:
You will note that females are making significantly fewer trips by bike per year from age 0-16 and this trend continues (with some variation) across all ages.
This doesn't really support the theory that a nefarious cabal of male bike mechanics are depriving women of the skills to use their bikes. It's a trend that starts young.
Another interesting set of stats from the Netherlands, although the metric is a little different:
Note that this is much closer to gender parity. May this be because of much better cycling infrastructure and kids thus going cycling with their parents from a young age as a consequence.