Even turbo work can be enjoyable IMO by using Zwift racing… But outdoors esepcually for me needs to be unstructured.
Racing is unstructured though isn't it.
Some people enjoy the process - nothing wrong with that. Some people just enjoy going for rides. Some people enjoy both. It's good that all these different viewpoints exist 🙂 it's difficult to portray but I don't think the people advocating structured training are not enjoying their riding - they might enjoy the technical nuances of self-improvement more than others.
Whichever approach you take just enjoy it - I really enjoy doing a workout but I also enjoy going for a ride. I don't see doing a workout as monotonous or boring or a chore. Its all burning calories and generating endorphins!
Just don’t look down on those who do want to train, for the same reason.
I am not looking down on you at all, if you enjoy it that's great.
I am looking down on the guy who goes out on the group ride with me and spends all the ride off the back with me trying to pace him back on and then find he is doing the ride "fasted" as he thinks he will lose weight. Or the bloke who joins a group ride and then refuses to put any effort in on the hills as he is doing zone 2 today, or the bloke who is 15kg over weight and thinks buying a power meter will help him...
All the people on this thread seem well informed, even when views differ, so I doubt any of you are these people. Like I said I would just question people's enjoyment, it's my reason to ride a bike. If you enjoy it, happy days, celebrate our differences. I sometimes this I'd like to "train" more but I really don't think I'd enjoy it.
Yes but it’s partly addiction 🤣 Two back to back days off last week left me feeling borderline depressed and anxious.
Ses that's a red flag for me!
My main roadbike cost £400 AND doesn't have a power metre!!
Having been on that very group ride- it is hilarious to see people ‘put effort in on the climbs’ and then coast down the the other side 🤣🤣
A power meter makes sense of a 2 or 3hr effort. Ie You can pace properly 😉
Having been on that very group ride- it is hilarious to see people ‘put effort in on the climbs’ and then coast down the the other side
Believe me I wasn't coasting!!
I wasn't having a pop at you specifically anyway, sorry if it came across that way, I had a number of other people in mind!!!
It’s actually a good metaphor for life. You just need to get out of the door and do the work. Sometimes it will be euphoric, most of the time it will just be what it will be and other times it will feel a chore.
But Z2 especially leaves me feeling better than when I started. Often on the bike too- I’ll be producing more power for the same Hr by the end after 2hrs than when I started.
I think the only concern is balancing life and bike fatigue. It’s only really if you’re racing that you can maybe justify being tired and cranky for other aspects of life.
But at the moment- the hours on the bike make everything else I do feel like a breeze.
My question is though, do you enjoy your riding?
I do. Perhaps more so for having discovered base miles. I followed a Joe Friel type base-build plan for the first time almost 10 years ago for an event, found that I really enjoyed the Z2 miles. I'm more of a tourer than a racer anyway. Realizing I could get faster using mostly Z2 and a committed HI session 1x a week was a revelation - I did 6 months prep (not training, just conditioning and test rides) then 6 months focused training and ended up at a decent level in the target event, from a zero racing background.
What I got from it in the following years was a pattern of riding that fits how I like to ride generally and it's kept my fitness at a reasonable level since yet I don't 'train' as such. I might use the turbo for a 12 week plan once a year some years but other years I just ride my SS MTB more. I use a HRM to be more focused than 'just riding' and got to know my pace/levels pretty well, well enough for the results I wanted anyway.
It's a simple approach with results I can feel. I CBA with data and tech in my riding so it works well for me. Combined with other riding + lifestyle habits I stay in generally good form for a late 40s non-racer - I enjoy my riding because I can still ride at a pace that feels great on the good days, and I'm not chasing results or stressing over absolute numbers.
I sometimes this I’d like to “train” more but I really don’t think I’d enjoy it.
Same here. There's certainly a level where it benefits what riding is for me, there's also a point where it could take a lot of the enjoyment or freedom from riding. If racing success itself is your aim then training has to be important, fair enough.
The idea of training is also useful if you actually do really enjoy your riding but are predisposed to over-doing it and ruining yourself!
I've just ridden on feel/enjoying myself in the past and (especially mid-Summer) have just ended up riding too hard, too often and blowing up a bit. Having a loose structure that lets me ride (ideally) three or four times a week without risking injuries or fatigue is great.
Sadly mid-winter that's going to involve some indoor miles but at least learning how to make Z2 a useful part of my training means I don't feel like I have smash it on the turbo midweek then take it easy at the weekend, instead I can zone out to some tunes and do Z2 midweek, then maybe start my weekend with some Z2 but also have some fun on the trails or pushing big climbs.
If it's sustainable and lets me ride consistently then I'll be having more fun 😎
I am looking down on the guy who goes out on the group ride with me and spends all the ride off the back with me trying to pace him back on and then find he is doing the ride “fasted” as he thinks he will lose weight. Or the bloke who joins a group ride and then refuses to put any effort in on the hills as he is doing zone 2 today
You can look down on them, yes. Rule 1 of training is do it on your own or with people who have the same training session and the same zones as you. Absolutely futile to try and do it on a group ride!
As for the bloke who's 15kg overweight - a power meter will help him if he has a training plan to go along with it.
Perhaps more so for having discovered base miles.
Having done the base training has absoutely made my riding more enjoyable, I can crank out long miles and feel good about it, coming home nicely tired not feeling shitty. But actually doing it wasn't that much fun, for the most part. I mean the 5hr jobs out to the forest of Dean, they were quite nice.
This kind of goes against my understanding of sweetspot training adaptation (and all training adaptation really).
Point was the idea of training is to progressively increase either duration or intensity until you reach your recovery week...I struggle to see where the progression is if you're repeating the same 40 minute sweetspot workout?
I prefer to extend time in zone by ~10% total each workout until I'm spending twice my TTE at SS intensity; once a week in addition to all the lovely Z2!
49 mins into my Z1/2.
With weight loss I have just found moving more and eating less helps. Not sure it matters too much how those calories are burnt.
I still need to lose some weight - would really help with the zwift racing! 🙂
My question is though, do you enjoy your riding?
Absolutely, and the stronger I get the more I enjoy it!
I just faced the ultimate Z2 test…
Overtaken up a long steady climb by a Fred!!
And he kept looking back 🤣
I stayed strong people 💪🏻
He’ll start a thread soon saying he overtook a roadie 🤣🤣
a what ?
I did 1hr 26mins to complete a route on Zwift... it wasn't as bad as some rides i've done as i was doing a particular route... but it wasn't mind blowing either.
I was going to do the 7km race just after it but was scared Crosshair would shout at me 😀
And he kept looking back
Wait - how do you look behind you in Zwift? Are you saying that if you choose the rear view your avatar looks back?
LOL he was outside 🙂
view 7 and 8 i think are reverse cameras on Zwift though.
Hey do what you want- I was out in the fresh air enjoying the Berkshire scenery 😉
Dr ISM even says bolting some intensity to the end of a Z2 is fine.
A Fred is like a non-roadie. Just a bloke on a bike. He even had a peaked helmet on 😉
"Fred" is a derisive term used by "serious" road cyclists to describe other cyclists who do not conform to serious road cyclists' norms with regard to dress and equipment, and appear amateurish to them. The term is generally reserved for men, while the rare female Fred is sometimes called a "Doris."
Seeing as this is the current active Zwift / training thread... @robbo1234biking is there likely to be an STW Zwift racing series after Xmas? Not too soon mind, I'm in Gran Canaria for the first week of Jan ;o)
I used to keep a peak on my helmet whilst otherwise dressed in full roadie compliant gear, just to mess with anyone who might notice; but then my new road-specific Oakleys wouldn't fit on it with the peak so it had to go.
🤣🤣
I did the Ghent Wevelgem in baggies and a DH jersey.
He’ll start a thread soon saying he overtook a roadie
There are many videos on youtube of cyclists overtaking pros up climbs in the winter months when the pros are on their z2 training blocks. I think even durran rider overtook Froome up some climb, and I can't but help suspect even that is a reasonable achievement, peak Froomes z2 with his size and weight would smash my z5.
I did the Ghent Wevelgem in baggies and a DH jersey.
...and the wrong tyres😉
I did 90mins on the turbo at the weekend in Z2.
It was ok from a boredom point of view. Could probably managed another 30 mins without too much bother but the day was ticking along.
Still surprised by how much effort it actually is, in the legs.
Racing tonight doing the Makuri double header - won't be too much Z2 going on there!
Weighed myself this morning to make sure I was still "correct" within Zwift. Spot on 74kgs so pleased to see there's been no drift upwards and no need for adjustment 🤣
I'm racing tonight too in very much not zone 2. Not sure if I should hang on for some finish points or go all.out for one of the sprints.
molgrips were you doing the Makuri races?
I raced at 1910 & 1930.
Finished 12th in both which I was pleased with.
7km & 5km was pretty full on as there was no time to ease.
7km I could play at all day
The 5km one I hated with a passion.
I did them the other day as Robbo was playing.
He won race 2 beating me by about an hour
weeksy
7km I could play at all day
The 5km one I hated with a passion.
I don't see the difference to be honest. Work to a power you can maintain for the given duration. Change gears to allow for the gradient and stay in your zone. It doesn't really matter if you are going up hill or not in Zwift.
You can always reduce the realism slicer to reduce the feeling of the slope.
Ha! But then I don't really do tactics in the races. I'm crap at drafting & if I'm in a group where everyone is being cagey & trying to draft, then I just push on which means I have no energy at the finish line for a sprint.
I tried to get away in the finale of a 7km race the other day- not the smartest move 🤣 Held on for a 🥈 in B though 🎉
460w for the last minute.
I don’t see the difference to be honest.
Thing is... that's not how it works though. I had to do 264w in race 1 to finish in the bunch sprint. In race 2, the front 2 riders did 330+w for the overall race.. big big difference. Even if i'd managed 264w in race 2, that would have not put me in the top 50%
so back to Z2 on a trainer, I'm relatively new to trainer use and am a few months into Wattbike ownership.
I do a few pace partner rides a week and a social closed group ride midweek with some riding mates. Generally all relatively sedate which suits my age/fitness/health.
I want to be doing Z2 stuff for the majority, and then will add in a few bigger/faster effort rides, within the constraints of a dodgy ticker than requires me to keep away from threshold, so I'll never be racing etc.
Keen for tips on how to best achieve this on Zwift - am I best setting up some custom Z2 workouts, or are there some useful ones in the menus? I usually pick pace partner rides that set me at around 1.6w/kg which does the job. And, currently I am using Airpod pro's/iPhone/Zwift companion, with my iPad running Zwift itself, and listening to the background Zwift commentary, which is ok, but I wonder if I'd find the hour more engaging with Spotify !
I think pace partners and group rides are great.
You could set long intervals at a chosen wattage using workout creator and ride erg if you want to zone out.
Route ticking is fun too- you’ll likely end up riding a little longer than you planned in order to finish the route badge you’ve started.
I like podcasts for z2 and music for HIIT.
I get my workouts from Trainerday.com, send them direct to TrainingPeaks and pick them up in Zwift - needs a premium TP account.
You can also send to Intervals.icu or Garmin though I'm not sure how you would then pick that up in Zwift without going through the folders on a PC, maybe someone here can help.
thanks, I find the pace partner rides give a bit of variety that helps pass the time and easy enough to keep in zone if using gears rather than erg, will try with some Spotify sounds tonight methinks.
Keen for tips on how to best achieve this on Zwift – am I best setting up some custom Z2 workouts, or are there some useful ones in the menus?
@iainc It's easy enough to create a workout using something like Zwiftworkout Rather than just create say, one hour long block, its better to vary the blocks every 5-10 minutes or so but all within Zone 2 range (55-75% of FTP is quite broad). If you can cope with sweetspot workouts I would recommend chucking one in now and then to alleviate the boredom whilst achieving the same aim.
I use Z2 workouts but 2 hours in probably the max I can manage. Motivation is burning off all the crap you eat at this time of year - there's nothing more depressing that having to adjust your weight upwards on Zwift and see you avatar get slower up those hills:)
^^^ many thanks
weeksy
Thing is… that’s not how it works though. I had to do 264w in race 1 to finish in the bunch sprint. In race 2, the front 2 riders did 330+w for the overall race.. big big difference. Even if i’d managed 264w in race 2, that would have not put me in the top 50%
Interesting. You must have had quite a mixed bunch with you.
I ended up 12th in both races with avg of 240w in the first race and 227w in the second. Felt like I worked harder in the second so bit weird that power was lower, but I think the first one took it out of me.
Nice & crisp day today with very little wind so I might try to get out this evening for some steady Z2 work.
molgrips were you doing the Makuri races?
I did the WTRL race, 37km, averaged 278W. Came about 10th in the second bunch which meant about 50th or so out of 74!
Was that in B ?
Yes B.
Right FTP question as you lot seem clued up.
Strava power curve tells me it's 288w which seems a tad high to me, it seems to be just me peak 20 min power so I would have thought it was roughly 95% of that? Last year I did a 20min test and 95% of that was 271.
Now as a committed non trainer I couldn't really give a monkey's tbh but when I do races on RGT you can see the power bar of other riders changing from green, to yellow to red based I presume on FTP so if mine is way out I am giving false info to other racers which seems a bit unfair
For context did a 1hr 20 race last night at 260 average and did a race last week for 50mins at 270.
A final question what even is weighted average I tried reading what Strava said and it made no sense, it always seems a little higher.
GCN discussed FTP last month, sadly weeks before Professor Louis Passfield died...
Louis' video seeing how long he can hold his "FTP" for...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rnRstm1KwUo
Something around 270 seems reasonable for you as a rough ballpark, depending on how much you drop in the 35-50min range.
Strava's "weighted average" is their version of Normalised Power, often a little lower than NP.
Yeah as above 👍🏻
NP/WP are a made up number but designed to illustrate how much work you did during an on/off type ride as a steady state equivalent. The fact you don’t actually burn the NP amount of kcals during a ride illustrates how it is a little optimistic perhaps.
Coggan suggested half a dozen ways to calculate your FTP here
the seven deadly sins....
...er, ways of determining your functional threshold power (roughly in order of increasing certainty):
1) from inspection of a ride file.
2) from power distribution profile from multiple rides.
3) from blood lactate measurements (better or worse, depending on how it is done).
4) based on normalized power from a hard ~1 h race.
5) using critical power testing and analysis.
6) from the power that you can routinely generate during long intervals done in training.
7) from the average power during a ~1 h TT (the best predictor of performance is performance itself).Note the key words "hard", "routinely", and "average" in methods 4, 6 and 7..."
It’s also describing an all-out effort so any estimate is likely to seem slightly scarily high. (Just because you can’t do it for 40-70 mins now, doesn’t mean you couldn’t with training, even if the number doesn’t go up).
The GCN video doesn't show FTP is flawed, even though they never actually say it isn't. FTP is the maximum you can hold for an hour. That's it. FACT. What IS flawed is the method or methods adopted to find it - as in crosshair's post above.
Of course how important it is to you depends on what you are going to do with it and what sort of cycling you do. For me as a slow, old recreational cyclist interested mainly in endurance, approximate is probably good enough. For a pro rider, more accurate is probably a good idea. Though at the end of the day it's the same tool for both of us - to enable a sensible training regime to be set up to allow us to perform to our best in our chosen discipline and hopefully improve (though at my age improve should perhaps be replaced by decline slowly).