[Closed] wow, does this guy NOT like mountain bikers !

He has a point though

The problem with cycling is chiefly the impact the wheels have on a path. A bike is much more efficient at eroding the surface of paths than a walkers boots for obvious reasons. It maintains constant contact with the ground, the two wheels tend to cover the same ground and it is more inflexible, harder to make adjustments (for example to go from stone to stone as a walker might). But I think my reservations go further even than that. There is something about the speed at which a cyclist travels and the fact he invariably and of necessity is looking at the ground in front of him. This singles him out from the walker whose pace is slower allowing him to look all round as he's walking thereby feeling more related to the country he's going through. Too often the cyclist unless he stops sees little of his surroundings which tends to disconnect him from where he is. This doesn't apply on a tarmac track or road, where normally the ground is smooth and consistent. A horse rider is not constrained in the same way. The horse itself looks after most of the decisions about where to put its feet.

haha, never been riding with shiteroll in my pack before, a doc leaf is much smoother

Horses are the very worst for eroding soft ground.

I like this bit,

The cyclists nearing the Seven Trees just visible in the above picture illustrate the image a salesman of mountain bikes would like to project. Idyllic scene on long summer evening, healthy outdoor exercise. In a better picture it could sell a few bikes. To me it's another part of modern life I can't quite understand. If I wanted to go out into the countryside and enjoy wilder places, why would I bother to take a bike with me? It restricts your freedom rather than adding to it.

but he is right here,

More troubling than this is the increase in drinks containers cast aside considerately by cyclists.

but here he is right,

Unlike the cyclists who try to make maximum speed with heads down all the time

Surface damage is proportional to weight - roughly;

Penrod are you shitting us?

Uh-oh look down the list, the tree climbers will be next to feel his wrath!

When you get back from a really good moorland scenic ride, what do you describe?
A. The rutted stone strewn path.
B. The annoying walkers that stop you looking at the floor.
C. The fresh air and scenery.

Reading his articles he doesn't sound exactly extreme in his views. I agree with many of them to a greater or lesser extent. The "litter must be cyclists" thing is a bit weird ("[i]drinks bottles and cans. Cyclists are definitely the culprits here.[/i]" - when was the last time you saw a cyclist with a can?) but other than that, what's the big deal?

people are to blame, not cyclists, people
apart from me

To be fair he has about half a dozen posts containing moans about cyclists and several hundred moaning about just about everying you could possibly imagine.

he's just a grumpy old bastard. he hates cyclists, car drivers, cows, young people, swp, farm vehicles, and farmers marking their sheep!!

FFS

Poor old fart.

And what biker would take cans of Carling out with them?! Anyone going to the bother of riding with beers wouldn't take that p*ss!

as if self respecting cyclist wouldn't drink carling!! - it's all micro brewery ale round here!

you not read it all yet ?

Walking of course is not a hobby or a lifestyle choice. It is a condition of humanity. And cyclists share that condition too - they don't have to take their bikes

Its this kind of guy, with narrow views of others needs, that leads to the segregated groups that lay claim to the Peak... me personally, I think there is room for everyone doing there thing in the Peak, walkers, horse riders, mtbers, 4x4, paragliders etc..

why create a divide ?

1. Fahre nur auf Wegen.
2. Hinterlasse keine Spuren.
3. Halte dein Mountainbike unter Kontrolle.
4. Respektiere andere Naturnutzer.
5. Nimm Rücksicht auf Tiere.
6. Plane im Voraus.

[i]and the self appointed practitioners of the new brand of conservationism.[/i]

From his own intro..Indeed

Alpin- my god thats what i wrote my german a-level on! 😀

seriously though, what a grumpy old man!

He does have a point, to an extent.

Riding on footpaths shouldn't be done, we all know this. Riding on bridleways is where we can ride, we all know this.

But kicking off about rubbish being the fault of the cyclist and how 'youthful cyclists race around and shock us' well, its a PUBLIC bridleway and you should be ruddy well aware that people may or may not be coming along.

You don't go to tesco's and get all huffy when someone stops in front of you?

What a silly old man. I'm surprised he could type with his blinkers on.

I am pretty sure that there were scientific papers published that concluded that:

a) It could not be determined whether bicycles cause more or less erosion than walkers
b) Horses definitely cause more erosion than either bicycles or walkers

If someone dislikes bicycles because they cause erosion, but not horses, they can naff right off. Plus, this guy thinks bikes are worse because walkers step from stone to stone instead of between them? Pretty rigorous science there, Hawking.

[i]this kind of guy, with narrow views of others needs[/i]

Quoting him,

"I approve of bicycles... I was a cyclist."
"Cycles have been driven off the road by selfish car drivers."
"I've never been fully happy with the mountain bike phenomenon in the countryside. But to allow them on bridleways seemed a reasonable compromise."
"I'm odd."

Doesn't seem wholly narrow minded to me. He just has a different opinion.

Reading his whole page he doesn't seem wholly unreasonable, but I do take umbrage with some of his views.

[i]'youthful cyclists race around and shock us' well, its a PUBLIC bridleway and you should be ruddy well aware that people may or may not be coming along.[/i]

You've never been for a walk and been buzzed by mountain bikers? There are plenty of people on bikes who don't really consider the fact that people don't have eyes in the backs of their heads and sound doesn't always travel as well as you might think. Not to mention that some people are simply deaf.

Just because it's a public bridleway doesn't mean that the people with the fastest mode of transport shouldn't slow up a bit for the others.

Obviously this is just a blog written by some git and if you disagree write your own half formed thoughts on wordpress instead of here and see if anyone cares. But...

There is something about the speed at which a cyclist travels and the fact he invariably and of necessity is looking at the ground in front of him. This singles him out from the walker whose pace is slower allowing him to look all round as he's walking thereby feeling more related to the country he's going through. Too often the cyclist unless he stops sees little of his surroundings which tends to disconnect him from where he is. This doesn't apply on a tarmac track or road, where normally the ground is smooth and consistent. A horse rider is not constrained in the same way. The horse itself looks after most of the decisions about where to put its feet.

I can't help thinking here he's missed a trick. i can't be the only person to have walked, run, and cycled around that area, and there's something zen like about the connection between the trail/land and yourself/bike that you feel when mountain biking that you just don't when walking. The idea you 'see more' when walking is nonsense - you might see different things, but that's not the same as saying you see less. He virtually says it himself, but then misses the point. Durr...

I've seen research that identifies mtb as having the least environmental impact, compared to dobbins and walkers. Makes sense as a high-volume, low pressure tyre will spread weight far better than a hard edge of a boot heel. I'd speculate that people like this are simply used to footfall erosion and see it as normal, while tyre erosion looks different and is therefore wrong.

It's also well known that walkers cause significant erosion of existing paths by walking around puddles and making paths wider, while we ride (wheelie) through them. I was quite amused by his point regarding how some cyclists had ruined a 'nice little path' that wasn't even a PROW (but it's still okay to walk on it).

As for cyclists looking down and not 'enjoying the countryside', it should be pointed out that I get to see considerably more of the countryside than if I was walking, as I cover so much ground.

I did try and comment on his blog, but could't find how.

Silly old bugger.

Burn him.

well i think he's a ****ing nobhead.

A bike is much more efficient at eroding the surface of paths than a walkers boots for obvious reasons. It maintains constant contact with the ground

as it maintains a constant contact with the ground surely it is causing less erosion. in much the same way that if you suffer with knee/joint problems you're better off cycling or swimming than jogging, less impact = less damage.

On Sunday afternoon (yesterday) three cyclists were observed on a route which was not a bridleway and not even a PROW. The result is a further mashing up of a pleasantly informal path.

presumably a "pleasantly informal path" is not a designated footpath but just a visible strip of eroded ground amongst otherwise untouched surroundings, presumably eroded by foot traffic which presumably is ok!

a classic case of do as i say and not as i do!

walkers are great aren't they? "I love walking around on the hills and forests of Britain, me" And yet so many of them bitch and complain and whine like crazy about every other living entity that has the audacity to even encroach on their self-imposed purgatory that is ensuring everyone else obeys their own interpretation of the law.

This cock has no idea about the law, history or significant factors in trail erosion, he just wants to bitch about people who are not like him. Leave him to it and laugh like a crazy loon if he complains.

His blogspot ratings just tripled though...

I am disgusted also .
But more with the fact that youre still up than owt else .

TFB

On erosion - my opinion from what I have seen - it depends on the terrain but one MTBer causes more erosion than 1 walker on the whole.

I have seen paths ruined by MTBers I have seen paths ruined by walkers Horses are the worst and inconsiderate people are bad for it no matter their transport but all other things being equal MTBs cause more erosion than walkers.

The answer is to be responsible and enjoy your access responsibly

but all other things being equal MTBs cause more erosion than walkers.

I have seen exactly the opposite asserted 🙂

SFB - that is what I believe from what I have seen. give it as much credence as it deserves, Its totally valid, rigourous and reliable Maaaaaaaaaaaaaaan.

No doubt in my mind that some local trail are wreacked by mountainbikes, its really easy to tell from the tracks on the ground.

Be aware and be responsible

I've just moved offices and the aged geezer I now share with was being quite sociable until he came out with the statement "You're a mountain biker aren't you" and the he proceeded the go into almort rant mode about how he was up on top of Helvellyn and a load of MTBers came passed and the charged off down the same down route as him and basically got in his way as he ambled down the hill side. He then stated that there was no way on earth they were allowed up there and that they should all be banned as it was obviously ramblers only up there.

I had a quick look on the internet and then pointed out to him that Helvellyn was the highest point in the Peaks with bridleway access and that legally bikes are allowed to ride on bridleways. He went quiet for a bit then said "just as well I didn't shout at them then". He's been nice as pie since.

The world is populated with grumpy old b4stards that have two opinions.... Theirs and the wrong one and they don't usually let the truth get in the way of their opinions.

Just let them get on with it and where you can put them right. They might not listen but at least you tried

We just don't count over here in Aus. It's either walking or motorbikes. Mountain biking here is catered for by getting a grader in and making a 6m tow path through the trees where there was an excellent single track.
Thankfully, when it rains it trashes the paths (until they grade again, making thr tracks below ground level) so trails soon get interesting again.
Strange as it is, I actually benefit from the motorbikes, they keep the trails open for me (and it seems to be just about me!).
Thankfully though this is all so remote from most walkers that it's never an issue.
Inner city parks suffer from bans etc though.
[/sunshine coast - Aus]

Come on get some persepctive. He rants about a young Highland Coo having just been born.

He's just opinionated, just as well no one one here is.

He has a point.

Put yourself in his shoes...he enjoys a walk in the countryside, he wants it to be as unspoiled as possible. Relatively speaking groups of blokes on bikes rattling along is an annoyance.

Car drivers moan about trucks, cyclist moan about cars and walkers moan about cyclist and so on.

"as it maintains a constant contact with the ground surely it is causing less erosion. in much the same way that if you suffer with knee/joint problems you're better off cycling or swimming than jogging, less impact = less damage."

+1

Compared with the 'cycle' of a walkers boot leaving/impacting the ground.

Helvellyn was in the Lakes the last time I looked. 🙂

Good point, well made 🙂

tyres may cause less of a 'dent' in the ground due to lower pressure per sq inch but, because they leave a groove, water then tends to settle in there and then flow downhill - this leads to soil erosion far more than walkers footprints. You then add braking erosion before obstacles and I can see why a lot of walkers think cyclists cause all the erosion.

Plus tyre marks are far more visible than footsteps because they are continuous.

tyres may cause less of a 'dent' in the ground due to lower pressure per sq inch but, because they leave a groove, water then tends to settle in there and then flow downhill - this leads to soil erosion far more than walkers footprints.

Not true on steep ground though, where walkers kick little steps into the ground every time - pretty sure there was some research which showed this.

Why don't we settle this debate by saying that bikes and feet both cause erosion.

TandemJeremy - Member

On erosion - my opinion from what I have seen -[b] it depends on the terrain but [/b]one MTBer causes more erosion than 1 walker on the whole.

I have seen paths ruined by MTBers I have seen paths ruined by walkers Horses are the worst and [b]inconsiderate people are bad for it no matter their transport [/b]but all other things being equal MTBs cause more erosion than walkers.

[b]The answer is to be responsible and enjoy your access responsibly [/b]

The mode of soil erosion with a bike is different to that of foot traffic, but is broadly similar. On anything with a gradient, ruts caused by bikes can exacerbate water run-off gulleys.

Effective Ground pressure is the largest determining factor, not total weight per-se. Horses are the absolute worst for this - high weight, small foot, nice cutting edge (hoof) to ensure good soil penetration and a backward flick as the foot is lifted means they dig as they go.

Now theres an argument for fatter tyres if I ever saw one. 😛

Overuse for the mechanical strength of the soil (which changes with the weather) is the other major factor.

The land belongs to no one.

[i]The land belongs to no one.[/i]

I advise you against using that argument if caught riding on some of the trails in the Trough of Bowland which clearly state
"Private Land belong to the Duke of Westminster"

😉

No doubt in my mind that some local trail are wreacked by mountainbikes

one person's "wrecked" is another person's "interesting challenge". I would rate foot passengers and cyclists about equal, horses x 5 and motocrossers x 50

Twisty singletrack turned into deeply eroded / muddy mess is wrecked. Remember the trails are for all.

i used to go greenlaning on my motorbike, we would moan about the ruts left by the "one life, live it" 4x4 crowd!

anyway, we were out one day and came across a group of ramblers, about 20 of them, we dropped our speed and rode past very slowly, most of them were putting their hands over their ears or holding their noses clearly showing their disapproval of the internal combustion engine. half a mile later we get back onto metalled road, we're in the middle of nowhere, and there's a dozen cars littering the verges where these **** had parked up and started their walk!

CGCC were up there the other month, they took a keg of bear with them and (I think) rode on non bridalways. they got a big spread in this months dirt mag

lol, I forgot about that Podge, not a great way to calm things down / get the Blacka people to understand MTBers needs.
The Concesionary bridleway by the wall is closed at the moment BTW.

You think that guy is bad?

Check this kook out..
[url= http://trailkillerz.blogspot.com/ ]Clicky[/url]

i'd be delighted for someone to show me some twisty singletrack that we're allowed to ride on...

There's a Blackamoor Reserves Advisory Group (RAG) meeting on Wednesday, at totley rise Methodist church, between 7 and 9.

One of the agenda items is 'Motorbikes and mountain bikes' - it would be a shame if no-one went along to represent,

I can probably make it, anyone else free?

Wish I was nearby. Check the same link again, he's retorted. Apparently some among us are less than intelligent with our responses, if you believe him. Mind you, no-one would know as he won't post any of the comments people send to him, likely because they pose a credible argument to his points.

thepodge

Have read the Dirt mag article and can see that the Blacka Blogger does have a point to make. Pity really.

there's loads on blackamoor

😉

Victor ****ing Meldrew!

Re...erosion...did my usual local loop(mix of cheeky, bridleways and quiet lanes on both Sat and Sunday this weekend, it was a bit claggy in places but my tyre prints were shallower than bootprints...and hoofprints were way deeper again. On the Sunday loop the previous days tyre prints were totally obscured by walkers boots on the cheeky bits,(mine were the only tracks visible) so I reckon the walkers round here:- A. outnumber bikers and B. cause more damage

Re. pace yep we probably do travel faster..It's called fun!...odd concept for ramblers!

A lot of this is age related too...rambling seems to attract more than its fair share of older people who can be somewhat dogmatic...or even plain miserable

OK, so who's going to own up to chucking plastic wrappers and drinks bottles and (most oddly) beer cans around while out mountain biking? The guy insists he's seen this, and the drinks bottles in the hedgerow line has been used before I think.

Certainly it's not something I've ever seen, nor can I understand how it would happen - a can of lager is something I'm very unlikely to put in my backpack (though a pint of Lord Marples at the Cricket Inn might go down well after Blacka Moor), and my drinks bottle definitely doesn't get thrown away each ride.

Does this happen, or is the guy mistaking local yoofs from Totley for 'mountain bikers'?

OK, so who's going to own up to chucking plastic wrappers and drinks bottles and (most oddly) beer cans around while out mountain biking?

as in post above most people don't differentiate between yoofs, mtbs and motorbikes

Certainly it's not something I've ever seen, nor can I understand how it would happen - a can of lager is something I'm very unlikely to put in my backpack (though a pint of Lord Marples at the Cricket Inn might go down well after Blacka Moor), and my drinks bottle definitely doesn't get thrown away each ride.

Who'd carry anything fizzy on a bike off-road ? It'd be like this when you opened it:
[img] [/img]

A lot of walkers are complete miserable bastards, there seems to be a significant proportion that disappear into the hills because they hate society and people in general. I do a reasonable amount of walking, and running and biking, so I'm pretty fit. I grew up in the Lakes, know most of it extremely well, have a good sense of direction and can read the weather well enough to not end up getting lost/wet/cold/dead. I get all kinds of dirty looks and comments when I'm out and about if I'm wearing a pair of jeans.

It's as if me being up high and walking in a more relaxed/casual attire somewhere they consider a challenging day out cheapens the experience for them. Blencathra in the snow at Christmas was a particular highlight with the crampon brigade.

These sort of walkers simply aren't happy to share 'their' hills with anyone else and you just have to let them get on with it. They're my hills by the way.

The thing is, in the Lakes if I go up Helvellyn I often get asked by walkers if they can take my picture, they're more amazed that people could get a bike up there, than objectional to your presence, especially as riding onto the top is feasible and gives the impression that you've ridden the lot. But if you drop down Scarth Gap pass, then have the audacity to ride around the back of Buttermere Lake, you will be abused left right and centre. There seems to be a good correlation between attitude and altitude. Ie the miserable selfish ****ers tend to be too unfit to get to the top.

I wouldn't worry about this crank too though!

oh dear, he think he's touched a raw nerve, i think in general, our community (if we must be pigeon holed) is a bit to laid back to be comcerned with raw nerves, yesterday one of ours went over the bars downhill, covered in mud and sheep shit, once we'd determined that nothing was broken we all pissed ourselves laughing, not a raw nerve in sight.

as for

certain groups gather together virtually via the internet to reinforce their beliefs and shut themselves off from a wider perspective

paulrockliffe - A lot of walkers are complete miserable bastards

to be fair, we came accross probably 30 walkers yesterday, all greeted us with good morning, one advised on a less sticky route to the next gate and two held gates open. clearly we all saw things from the "wider perspective"

Judging by the mess you see at some trail centres, there are mountain bikers who take all sorts of snacks with them riding and just dump their trash by the side of the trail. I doubt many would admit to it here, though.

Yeah Stu, I wasn't saying all walkers are like that, there are a lot of friendly ones too. More miserable bastards on the way to Angle Tarn from Langdale than friendly ones yesterday though.

This singles him out from the walker whose pace is slower allowing him to look all round as he's walking thereby feeling more related to the country he's going through

we cover more ground though, so i imagine that evens it out?

pesky walkers, walking so slowly, not seeing things over an area of more than a few miles.
tsk

I love being extra smiley and friendly to any glum walker I see on a ride, it must be a real pain for them to be greeted in a friendly manner and have to be miserable. I see it as a duty to lighten their dull day. Have heared that the Ramblers Association run courses on how to be miserable to all around, you can then wear your red socks with pride.

This singles him out from the walker whose pace is slower allowing him to look all round as he's walking thereby feeling more related to the country he's going through

we cover more ground though, so i imagine that evens it out?

pesky walkers, walking so slowly, not seeing things over an area of more than a few miles.
tsk

Doesn't this highlight the beauty (and horror) of the internet? I guy vents his spleen at the world and we sit here bitching about it! 😀

Seriously, my family have some friends who live near Shap. They're really into the walking (written 3 books, I think). Anyhoo, they're lovely people, always have a great time wtih them. The gentleman-half of this couple decided he would wave a giant red flag of generalisations around, just to get rise (it works with my Dad on politics). 3 years later, after much discussion, we have agreed to disagree. But we've also agreed to have a go at each other's "poison".

Some people just won't believe they could be wrong or misinformed. Afterall, if it's online, it must be true! 😉

My 2 cents done.

I do wonder why some folk go out in the country, they look so miserable (not just ramblers either). Surely if you feel like that a beverage of your choice by the fire is a better alternative?

I have to agree that he has some valid points…

And he seems to suffer from some similar prejudices to many members of the cycling community, Lets be fair there’s a fair few cyclists who are similarly grumpy old farts just with a couple of wheels under them…

While it’s worth looking at walkers as a kindred group with a similar agenda to MTBers (Land access, Right to roam, etc) they do have different priorities to many MTBers, most importantly they do seem to place more importance on preservation and conservation or the natural environment (depending on your definition of that)…
Say what you like where we turn up in any number we do have an impact on the environment, not that we are totally oblivious to it, or deliberately cause damage, managed trails are maintained so as to limit the impact of the sport but we are a very visible group leaving obvious signs of presence when start using a bit of land, this is probably what has attracted his distain in the first place…

He also seems to take exception to the fact that we communicate and organise as a group via the internet, Can’t say I see that as a flaw, in many ways it makes us a stronger, better informed community, odd also coming from a man who Uses the WWW as his soapbox but still, life in black and white is simpler for some…

In the grand scheme of things this fella’s Blog doesn’t mean a great deal, the grumpy musings of a rambling nature lover he’s entitled to his views and to publish them on his blog, there are plenty of counter points to be found elsewhere on the web.
The problem (or indeed the advantage) with Blogs is that they are about as effective as posting your views on a web forum, 5 minutes of angry ranting from either side and within a day it’s buried in amongst the plethora of other interweb rants that nobody can be arsed to remember or act on (often the originator included)…

This guy is the British cousin of Mike V******n 😀

come on guys hes just trying to walk in the contryside!

[img] http://www.surreycomet.co.uk/resources/images/243128/?type=display [/img]

I do wonder whether some walkers get confused and think us the same as MX bikes.. certainly a few of the miserable gits around the Peaks class us the same.

Actually, has anyone noticed an interesting phenomenon? Walkers up big hills, proper mountains and in inhospitable places in general, seem to be much, much friendlier to bikers than those pottering around the foot hills / lanes with their Goretex and carbon pole things.

Certainly on Snowdon for example, the walkers at the top seem to have great admiration for bikers having hoiked 30lb of bike up there... whereas the ones pootling around the bottom after their pub lunch seem to think us the devil in baggies...

just a thought

You could substitute the word cyclist for walker in the blog and it would read the same.

An inconsiderate person is an inconsiderate person regardless of what they drive / ride or walk.

How many times have you ridden towards a large group of people walking four abreast towards you, spread right accross the bridleway and refuse to give you room?

Littering is a pet peeve of mine too.

From what I read of the blog they seem like a selfish person. Fair enough, they don't affect my life.

RopeyReignRider - Member

.................

Actually, has anyone noticed an interesting phenomenon? Walkers up big hills, proper mountains and in inhospitable places in general, seem to be much, much friendlier to bikers than those pottering around the foot hills / lanes with their Goretex and carbon pole things.

Yup. From a series of discussions on here and my own observations I believe that the further you go from the road, the worse the weather and the further north you are the better reception you receive from walkers.

In the highlands in winter I have never come accross and issues