[Closed] Worth paying more for a hand built wheel?

all other things being equal, (same rim/hub/spokes)
definately worth it imo.

all other things being equal, (same rim/hub/spokes)
definately worth it imo.

Agreed. My wheelbuilder also has an amazing 'tache.

Handbuilt wheels are awesome.

Depends who builds it tbh but as a rule yes

Giant

Just picked up a new hand built set from big Al at Wheelcraft (legend).
I got a free cup of coffee,the offer of some cake and told to bring them back for a free tune up once I have bashed them round the trails.

There is little if nothing he doesn't know about wheels and it was well worth the money on fuel to get there and back (twice).
Oh, and as I had sourced out the hubs and rims online they still came in cheaper than buying the same set ready built.

If the builder is good you won't regret it

Big al is tops 😉

CRC wheels are hand built as well you realise? At the prices you mention I'd go crc or merlin or whoever every time.

CRC wheels are hand built as well you realise?

Does that wheelbuilder know me and the way I ride? I very much doubt it. Does that wheelbuilder offer a free tweak after a bedding in period (as mentioned above)? I very much doubt it. Does that wheelbuilder offer banter, coffee, cake and support (again as mentioned above)? I very much doubt it.

Personally, I'd buy cheap and finish them myself but it all comes down to the builder. Can you be certain that the guy in the local shop is £30 better than the guy at CRC?

Can you be certain that the guy in the local shop is £30 better than the guy at CRC?

Yes. I've known him for years. I know his name. I know who he is. I know how he works and I know a lot about his craft.

The builder at CRC, do you know who he/she is? Do you have any idea of their experience as a builder?

Captain flash you may know all those things about your wheel builder but I don't think most people would do. How does how you ride effect how they build the wheel? The components used therein maybe but I'd be selecting those anyway based on my knowledge/previous experiences.

CaptainFlashheart - Member
CRC wheels are hand built as well you realise?
Does that wheelbuilder know me and the way I ride? I very much doubt it. Does that wheelbuilder offer a free tweak after a bedding in period (as mentioned above)? I very much doubt it. Does that wheelbuilder offer banter, coffee, cake and support (again as mentioned above)? I very much doubt it.

How you ride matters not a jot to how your wheel should be be built.

Otherwise unless CRC builds are gash VFM lies with them. It's down to the usual web vs. lbs' arguments as Flash says.

Every shop should produce good wheels. The notion that there are wheel builders with mythical abilities is a nonsense...but no more so than most marketing tripe.

How does how you ride effect how they build the wheel?

Weight, bike, riding style. These can all affect how someone builds a wheel.

Bollocks. It can effect component choice but has nothing to do with the build process.

I would always go with a hand built wheel now but then I'd build my own

CaptainFlashTart sucked in by "niche marketing" shocker!

And I was about to buy a Rab jacket too...

Yup, you could just buy the set you want (maybe cheaper) then get a builder to tune/check them.
Me,I like to go for the whole shopping experience and (for me )the bigger satisfaction.

It's all down to what you want in the end.

Build a bike from scratch or roll the same one out the door of an LBS (where they know what they are doing),you still end up with the bike you want,but I will always love my shed built projects more.

better idea, avoid the argument, buy a truing stand and do the bloody thing yourself.

Weight, bike, riding style. These can all affect how someone builds a wheel.

YES ❗

Sorry cfh, got to agree with the people who've called you above. Unless your wheelbuilder is suggesting the components then good wheelbuilding is good wheelbuild.ing I'll bet that some will dispute that based on the silly 'black art' bs that's surrounds many wheelbuilders but my own wheelbuilding background disagrees. People like to think they're getting something special and many wheelbuilders play up to that ime.

Gravy made a career out of it!

Sad to see flashie pwned. I feel for him I do. At least Fred wasn't involved.

Does that wheelbuilder offer a free tweak after a bedding in period

If the wheels are built properly in the first place this isn't needed!

I also agree with The Doctor. Re-tensioning check ups are a myth perpetuated by poor builders

Also think about how good a mechanic you have to be to get a job at a place like CRC or Wiggle. They have quite a set of requirements.

I'd imagine that someone you meet and ask to build something is going to be more dedicated than someone sitting in a factory somewhere who might only do the bare minimum they need to do to keep their job. I think I'm willing to pay the extra for that.

Sorry for double post...connection prob.

CRC would never get away with poor wheels IMO.

If wheel building is so easy then why do they write numerous books on the subject, most of them being over 100 pages or more.

I agree about riding being irrelevant given a certain component choice, but building a wheel has so many variables that there does have to be some craft in doing it well. Also, a wheel picked up from the shelf can seem perfectly fine, but uneven tension can lead to a rapid taco on the trail, when not much lateral force is applied.

Wheelbuilding is not rocket science, for an average rider there will not be much in the longevity of a machine built wheel versus one built by a so called master craftsman; especially when using cheap components.

My experience so far

Machine built (i presume), came on my 06 Marin Wolf Ridge.

Deore hubs/ Mavic 317 rims/ black spokes - still true

Hand built (by big local shop)

Hope hubs/ Mavic 317 rims/ black spokes - out of true

Retensioning IMO is not a myth; if you`ve got a new (aluminium) hub and rim and new (steel) spokes there will be some bed in at the hub & rim spoke holes and possibly stretch in the spokes themselves. Although probably very slight this will change the tension in the spokes >>>need to retension as a best option 🙂

The last shop built wheel I had, which came from a shop that brags about the skill of their wheel builder didn't do a very good job. I check my wheels for even tension using the park tool as my ear isn't very musical. When I build a wheel, I get a tension tolerance of plus or minus half a unit. When I checked the shop built one, it was under tensioned and a tolerance of plus or minus three. The last set of hope hoops I had were plus or minus one. They're effectively machine built wheels. Really does come down to the builder and the machine. Too many people big up their wheel builders in shops with no real measure of what they're doing.

James, I agree that there will be bedding in of components but all of that shoud be taken care of by the builder before the wheel leaves the shop. There should be sufficient stretching, squeezing and detensioning done that once out of the shop the wheel should not need any retensioning. I have the callouses and carpel tunnel to show for it

+300 for wheelcraft. Hope hoops are great imo

The last set of hope hoops I had were plus or minus one. They're effectively machine built wheels.

Really? I understood only the very cheapest wheels were machine built.

I could be wrong but I'm sure I heard they were machine built and hand tweaked. Also, that machines can build very good wheels, it just boils down to how many units you want to push through the machine. If you give them longer, they can build better.

Happy to be corrected if I'm wrong.

scottyjohn - Member
If wheel building is so easy then why do they write numerous books on the subject, most of them being over 100 pages or more.
I agree about riding being irrelevant given a certain component choice, but building a wheel has so many variables that there does have to be some craft in doing it well. Also, a wheel picked up from the shelf can seem perfectly fine, but uneven tension can lead to a rapid taco on the trail, when not much lateral force is applied.

Long books on a subject prooves only that there are some very boring people around 😉

There is craft in wheelbuilding which is why I said specifically 'good wheelbuilding' however it's not a black art no matter how much many try to claim it is.

Interesting.. set of machine built wheels kept breaking spokes.. took some advice and had them completely rebuilt by hand... problem solved. Hand built over machine built for me.

rickmeister, you may find that's due to cheap spokes rather than machine building. Either that or under tensioned spokes which is a process problem rather than the machine. That will build to whatever tension you tell it.

[i]

James, I agree that there will be bedding in of components but all of that shoud be taken care of by the builder before the wheel leaves the shop. There should be sufficient stretching, squeezing and detensioning done that once out of the shop the wheel should not need any retensioning. I have the callouses and carpel tunnel to show for it

True, on the occasions that I have built (just my own) wheels I did spend a lot of time squeezing, leaning sideways on teh rim etc (I even heard of a builder who walked on the wheeels!) but won`t there still be some longer term bedding in , after all no matter how much building squeezing etc that is a small proportion of the total tiem a wheel has being ridden and stressed at every rotation?

Re Hope Hoops, great wheels I agree having got both raod and MTB set; I believe that they are hand finished off at Hope, but even so my road wheels still required some retensioning after 1000 miles use, spokes had gone a bit soft

 

but won`t there still be some longer term bedding in , after all no matter how much building squeezing etc that is a small proportion of the total tiem a wheel has being ridden and stressed at every rotation?

no!

I make no claim of being a brilliant wheel builder but since I have been building my own wheels I have not had any spoke breakages.

As a point of interest I have found that builds using double butted spokes seem to need the odd true, whereas builds using plain gauge tend to shift less.

As the result of what I percieved to be good advice I never build with black spokes or alloy nipples and I stay well clear of bladed or any other non standard spoke/nipple setup. Subsequent experience working part and full time in a bike shop has backed that up.

In answer to your question.........generally YES it is worth getting hand built wheels.......provided whoever is doing them concentrates, you should get a better product.

The bloke doing our shop built wheels at the moment takes an inordinate amount of care and time over them (way more than I do on my own wheels in my own time) and you'd be getting over double the labour he ends up charging you.

All the wheels I've build have been excellent. That is about 6 of my own (rim and hub swaps etc) and some of my mates wheels.

Send the stuff to me and I'll put it together into a wheel for you. I love building wheels and already have 4 to build up over Christmas whilt there's nowt on tele.

Its free but you pay postage and donate a suitable amount to help the Heroes if you think the wheel is any good.

Black and bladed spokes (decent ones) are fine. Alloy nipples work until they corrode.

i have bought wheels from merlin and crc in the past, both were good reliable. those places must put out hundreds of wheels, if you build that many youv'e got to develop some skills.

merlin wheels are handbuilt anyway aren't they? just like the LBS does...

I've had several wheels built by CRC and never had a bad one, they are a quality build, no 'pinging' on the first ride means they've been properly de-stressed too.....not one of my wheels has needed a 'tweak' and I ride them pretty hard

I would recommend them without hesitation

fasthaggis - Member
Giant

Just picked up a new hand built set from big Al at Wheelcraft (legend).
I got a free cup of coffee,the offer of some cake and told to bring them back for a free tune up once I have bashed them round the trails.

The wheel builder I spoke of was indeed Big Al at Wheelcraft and I opted for his wheel over one from CRC. He trued my front wheel for free while I was there and I was also offered coffee and cake! I always enjoy the trip out to Wheelcraft and I'm very impressed with my new wheel.

Here's the Hope wheel building machine in action:

many LBS, will ask you to bring the wheel back after a few hundred miles for a retension (included in the price).
crc cant do that really.

LBS or DIY.

Personally, I'd buy cheap and finish them myself

You run the danger of buying a wheel that has spokes too short or too long, even a few threads makes a difference. There other elements that can be done wrong, such as the spokes being threaded incorrectly through the flange holes. Also the wheels may be over-tensioned. Why you'd order wheels and finish them yourself is beyond me, the 'finishing' is the hard bit.

Big Al at Wheelcraft comes with my recommendation. I disagree with the comment on only bad wheelbuilders inviting customers back for a wheel checkup after a few hundred miles. Big Al does say this but I actually never take him up on it, with no detrimental effects. So I don't know why he says it, but there is a good business case for getting punters back through your door, whatever the reason.

I've built my own wheels, but Al is such good value and so much better at it than me that there is no point.

[url= http://www.wheelpro.co.uk/wheelbuilding/book.php ]This is a good book on wheelbuilding.[/url]

Wadrider, I finish them myself because I can. It's what Roger does with Hope Hoops. I'm not talking about buying cheap kit, I'm talking about buying the kit I want at the best price and then hand finishing them.

The question in the OP was whether CRC or local builder was better. No one has suggested that either was going to provide a "bad" wheel so checking/finishing either isn't the end of the world if you can build wheels.

As it happens, I have the wheel pro book which I used to tweak self taught technique from years ago.

You having a bad day Onzadog?

I like to apologize to everyone at Singletrack for not addressing the OP question exactly on this age old thread.

Sorry!

Interestingly I bought a set of hope hoops with DT 5.1d rims which are machine built and a set of hand built 823's on Pro II's

Mate of mine is really interested in wheels and has an unhealthy attention to detail. He wanted to see what the competition was like.

He said the machine built Hope Hoops were pretty much perfect, very true good and extremely even tension, in fact one of the best builds he has seen.

The hand built Mavics (by a renowned company) were pretty average.

Could just have been luck with the Hopes, but who knows !!!

Bazzer

No more so than normal. It's just that you seem to have taken what I said out of context and gone off at a tangent with it. I was just offering additional information to return the context to it.

Hope you don't mind. 😉

Not a problem, people are often incorrect on the internet.

"Weight, bike, riding style. These can all affect how someone builds a wheel."

I'd still like to know how the build technique would change to suit riding style.
Products and cross patterns yeap, but just because you have had a chat with a wheel builder how would that effect technique?
Does the wheel builders hold their little finger in the air as the tension the spokes for a super light XC race build? (as one would with ones best china)
When building for hucker should you pre drag your knuckles first?

What speshpaul said, and:

You run the danger of buying a wheel that has spokes too short or too long, even a few threads makes a difference. There other elements that can be done wrong, such as the spokes being threaded incorrectly through the flange holes.

Utter piffle.

You are totally wrong. I am so right. 🙂

Any professional wheelbuilders about who'd like to comment?

Not a problem, people are often incorrect on the internet.

Yup, I am always wrong me.

I spend far too long in book shops and record stores ,when I could get what I want in seconds on the tinternet ,downloaded straight to my tiny brain.
I should have saved time and fuel driving to the wheel builders and had a set delivered to my door,chucked them on the bike and got straight out and perfected my riding god skilz.

Ah well ,as long as it keeps me smiling.

Isn't that right nurse? 😀

ok , my two peneth, there's good and bad hand built wheels and good and bad machine built wheels. Properly built wheels will not need retentioning. I've only ever had one wheel need retensioning and it turned out to be a dodgy rim. Only spokes I've ever broken were on factory built wheels. I was fortunate enough to be taught how to build wheels by a guy that knew his stuff and was a stickler for attention to detail. Upon reading Roger Musson's book I was well pleased to find that a lot of what Roger advised I was already doing. My latest bike has factory built wheels and when I have a moment I'll check and retension them as out of the box they weren't true, if that means backing all the spokes off back to a base tension and starting from there so be it. Fortunately I enjoy building wheels and don't do it for a living but there is a lot of bollocks talked about it being a black art. Oh and back to the original question if you know the guy at the LBS and trust him use him, if you're looking to save cash it's a no brainer.

Any professional wheelbuilders about who'd like to comment?

Well I used to build them professionally and I think it's "Utter piffle" too (to use Cynic-Al's words though I think TJ has the trademark on them...).

So long as there's sufficient thread in the nipple to hold firmly (eg not strip the threads) or to poke out far enough on the other side to damage the inner tube then it makes precisely no difference. I know of a wheel I built for 2003 Mountain Mayhem on the day as my mate had noticed that his rim had split the day before and the spokes were quite a bit too short for the replacement rim ( I would estimate only 5 or 6 full threads engaged in the nipple). The same wheel is still going strong now and regularly used (tight git - I did tell him to get it properly rebuilt after the event but he never did).

Any professional wheelbuilders about who'd like to comment?

Been building for myself and as shop wrench for 23 years, have built for pru-tour and DH World Cups, does that count?

Sorry but soo many folk come out with guff like "which spokes (leading vs. trailing) have their heads inside the flange matters" etc just because they DO NOT KNOW or because they want to look clever or self-promote - much like Jobst Brandt's technically correct but sompletely meaningless spokes in compression analysis. A complete waste of time.

Apologies if I have infringed any of TJ's intellectual (!) property rights, I shall use "flim-flam" henceforth.

Guys, I appreciate your input, but

So long as there's sufficient thread in the nipple to hold firmly (eg not strip the threads) or to poke out far enough on the other side to damage the inner tube then it makes precisely no difference

...saying that exactly the point I had in mind, if disregarded, makes my point nonsense is a bit silly.

Regarding chamfers being in hub flanges to stop stress at spoke elbows, are your comments not directly contrary to the advice in the "Professional Guide to Wheel Building" by Roger Musson, widely regarded as the most authoritative book on wheel building?

I'm back!

Just for fun I've pulled out my copy of Professional Wheel building.

My original point on this thread was that there are pitfalls to letting someone else lace your wheel for you, as that itself requires skill. Turns out there is even more to that job than I remember!

1) Some rims are offset. Non-offset and offset rims need to be laced differently.
2) Some nipple holes are drilled at an angle, and the nipple seats are at an angle. The spokes need to be laced according to the angles.
3) Spoke length is crucial for the reasons clubber sets out.
4) " If the hub has alternate countersunk holes then ensure the first
spoke is placed so that the elbow rests on the countersunk side." - so says Roger Musson on page 36 of edition three.

I can reference all of these in the book. Wouldn't fancy having any of you lot build my wheels.

Now, any more of this nonsense and I'm sending Big Al round to give you a severe talking to. (Probably as you're trying to leave the shop).

Regarding chamfers being in hub flanges to stop stress at spoke elbows, are your comments not directly contrary to the advice in the "Professional Guide to Wheel Building" by Roger Musson, widely regarded as the most authoritative book on wheel building?

No frikkin' idea, never read it. What do you mean "chamfers being in hub flanges to stop stress at spoke elbows"?

Oh I see your second post - you mean countersinking. I've never seen a hub that had alternate spoke holes countersunk.

LOL at back-pedal:

3) Spoke length is crucial for the reasons clubber sets out

Otherwise your points are all of course correct - but so what? They're obvious to a skilled wheel-builder, you had to look them up.

Cynic-al every subject in the world has it's literature, be it astro-physics or wheel building. Some of this literature is respected and pretty much incontrovertible. And referencing such works is how all of academia works.

All I am doing is not letting it past me when, as usual, folk are on the internet being more authoritive than their actual knowledge. Even worse, claiming to be professional.

I am not a wheelbuilder, but I have built wheels. And of course I refer to a book- do you think I'm so arrogant to think my opinion is automatically right while everyone else is wrong? No, I pause, and do a bit of research to check the facts.

Wheelbuilding isn't a black art, it's just an interesting wee corner of engineering. 😀

Sorry I don't get your point - you are saying that I am not a pro, and that you know more cos you have read a book?

Seems the implication is that experience of building wheels day in day out is nothing compared to reading Musson's book.

Ah well, I'd better get a copy of the book then

cynic-al - Member

"CRC would never get away with poor wheels IMO."

CRC used to be legendary for their awful wheels. Seen a few of theirs recently and they were no better than alright.

My Hope Hoops were finished off by Roger, I'll never know if it made any difference of course but they're very nicely built. I'd sooner have a good machine built wheel than a bad handbuilt.

I'm happy I've made my point 😀