Huge amount of changes already I think. And heaps of discussion on here at every stage. Really just waiting for the verdict
I'm not surprised. It had to happen at some time.
It's pretty difficult to guess what the trajectory of a lost control rider & bike will be, and the speeds seem to be getting higher.
I think most spectators are well aware of their risk - a bit like watching rally stages.
Sad that it has come to this, and probably will be a bit of a landmark case IMHO.
BBC reports of the current case in Mold Crown Court
1:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-north-east-wales-44358775
2:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-44375987
@epicyclo Since the event there are more spectator no go areas, we were keeping photographers out of them at Steel City too so lots being done there. This case is more about the risk assessments and mitigation that any event organiser should undertake.
You can't expect spectators alongside a track to evaluate every corner before moving up or down there, you can expect an organiser to and sort that accordingly.
This won't be the end of DH, or any other event just reinforce what is needed by the organiser, commissionaire and chief Marshall at an event
That report in the Mirror just strikes me as being really badly done. Pap pics of the rider, like he's committed a crime, loads of shots of the unfortunate victim looking glamorous - he "crashed into her" in contrast to to a road accident where a bike and car always have a "collision"
Quite disturbing, wish I hadn't clicked on it.
An unfortunate accident and extremely sad for all concerned.
Agree with that^^
Terrible bit of reporting over what is basically a tragic accident.
They couldn't have found a photo of the rider looking more guilty and ashamed, even though it's clearly not his fault.
One thing's for sure, the rider's absolutely blameless. The rest, we shall see.
The case against the marshall has been thrown out:
“Judge Rhys Rowlands QC told the jury that having heard legal submissions, as "a matter of law it simply wouldn't be possible for you to convict Mr Duckworth of count four (the one count he faced)"
Mr Duckworth left the court having been formally cleared”
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-north-east-wales-44612429
Must be a great relief for him.
AFAIK The case against both the organiser and British Cycling continues.
Horrible, tragic accident, but we have to get away from this notion that every accident must be someone’s fault. It is sadly predictable how much more media coverage this gets than the average of around FIVE people killed on UK roads every single day.
The road to hell is paved with good intentions.
Horrible, tragic accident, but we have to get away from this notion that every accident must be someone’s fault
Could not disagree more. If we.do not investigate and learn from this then they will keep happening. B zones and spectator no go zones are now part dh racing which is a good change.
If only we took road deaths as seriously
There's a great big difference between on the one hand avoiding a blame culture, where it's all about pinning it on someone who is "to blame" and on the other failing to investigate what happened.
in fact it makes it easier to establish real causes and effective improvements if blame us taken out of it, since people cooperate more
As with the majority of high speed sporting events, e:g. motorcycle and car racing, "there is an element of risk to participant and spectator".
, “there is an element of risk to participant and spectator”.
And what is being asked here is if the risk was properly managed and communicated to those there. Dh spectating has changed over the years to reflect a management of risk that is expected if you host an event.
I don't think you can say it was always going to happen. It strikes me as more of a freak occurrence. A neighbour of mine slipped on ice, hit his head, and died two days later. I would put this more in that category rather than compare it to an accident on a rally stage.
How many accidents do we have on the trails every weekend, with similar forces involved, and the worst that happens is broken bones or concussion, with the most common outcome being bumps and bruises.
That's not to say that lessons shouldn't be learned in terms of spectator safety, I just think that prosecutions are a massive over-reaction.
, I just think that prosecutions are a massive over-reaction
Depends if they followed the best practice or not for marking and no go zones. Again this needs to go to its conclusion and see all the evidence presented
Could not disagree more.
Well, we’re agreed on that, at least.
As with the majority of high speed sporting events,
They do all have rules and safe zones for the participants and spectators though and have those zones enforced as best they can. In the UK, at least, you cant dodge legal responsibility with a disclaimer.
Its is going to be a nightmare for all involved and hopefully the court case will be more information based than the dribble in the Mirror report.
Comments on the role of British Cycling:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-north-east-wales-44688564
British Cycling and the organiser cleared by jury:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-north-east-wales-44710486
Horrible, tragic accident, but we have to get away from this notion that every accident must be someone’s fault
Could not disagree more. If <span class="skimlinks-unlinked">we.do</span> not investigate and learn from this then they will keep happening. B zones and spectator no go zones are now part dh racing which is a good change.
If only we took road deaths as seriously
As has been pointed out, prosecuting people isn't the best way of addressing the risks, either on the road, in industrial accidents, or in a medical context. A blame culture just pushes up insurance premiums for event organisers and I'm sure a very unlucky spectator wouldn't want that any more than any of the spectators that have been involved in incidents in motor racing - address the risks properly, learn from mistakes, but the adversarial system involved in bringing a prosecution is not conducive to this.
It seems from the lack of convictions that a reasonable approach was taken, but accidents will always happen - you just have to look at them and see if anything proportionate can be done to address the risks - as BW alludes to there are things that will unfortunately kill a few people that you just can't remove the risk from.
It seems from the lack of convictions that a reasonable approach was taken
On a technicality: I think the only party that has actually been formally vindicated is the organiser - the marshal was charged with an inappropriate offence - one he could never be guilty of; and the case against British Cycling should have been brought against Welsh cycling (from reading the news reports over the last few days). Not that I am in any way suggesting that this would have changed the outcome, but it does leave a question mark against the role of the National body, in particular.
Its pretty shoddy behaviour by the council bringing the prosecution to put everyone through this on a technically unsound case (especially as my council tax has been paying for it!).
My deepest sympathies to all involved, especially the lady's family.
Since the acciident race organisers have been more cautious.
A photographer complaint ed after the last ukge that a marshal wouldn't let them snap from the best shot.
I'm sure that any marshal would have kev being charged on their mind.
[quote=mikesmith]And what is being asked here is if the risk was properly managed and communicated to those there
Ok, so we add the following to the entrance ticket or info at the public entrance:
"There is a one in million (or lower) chance of you being killed whilst spectating at this event. If that is too much risk, please do not enter"
(we have had one spectator death in the entire UK (and possibly world wide??) in the entire history of the sport)
A photographer complaint ed after the last ukge that a marshal wouldn’t let them snap from the best shot.
I moved a couple of young snappers out of a B zone at Steel City, great pic spot but right in a **** up zone
“There is a one in million (or lower) chance of you being killed whilst spectating at this event. If that is too much risk, please do not enter”
AFAIK since the indecent spectator no go zones are accepted and part of race marking, seems like the right things are happening. I have to ask how many people saying risk is acceptable have had to do risk assessments and sign their name to them?
Ok, so we add the following to the entrance ticket or info at the public entrance:
“There is a one in million (or lower) chance of you being killed whilst spectating at this event. If that is too much risk, please do not enter”
There were signs that said pretty much this at the NPS downhill events and at the Cannondale enduro last year.
If people are aware of the risk then they can make their own decisions
Not every spectator at a race is a bike rider or aware of the risks.
If people are aware of the risk then they can make their own decisions
Unfortunately, AFAIK, that's not the way that UK law works in the context of commercial undertakings.
No matter what disclaimers one posts, "the organiser" (in the loosest terms) must still have addressed everything foreseeable. By law, they are required to protect people from themselves. An individual is unable to sign away this obligation.
It is what it is, and draws on precedents for ascertaining what might or might not be deemed reasonable, hence the additional interest in cases such as this.
By law, they are required to protect people from themselves. An individual is unable to sign away this obligation.
To turn this around a little, if you were responsible for peoples safety what would you do?
By law, they are required to protect people from themselves. An individual is unable to sign away this obligation.
To turn this around a little, if you were responsible for peoples safety what would you do?
As per HSE are we not “all responsible” for each other’s safety????? Therefore you must take all “reasonable precautions “ to ensure everyone’s safety...
Or so it goes.......
However as per the recent Border rally case so much was not made public...
I gave up on marshalling at rally’s, going to rally’s many years ago due to inconsiderate spectators who have no respect for any Marshall’s advice/recommendations/instructions etc...
I also have up helping organise mtb events both due to competitors being a****holes mischief more than spectators.....
What will happen to Enduro racing????