After a thread last week that brought up the issue we've been discussing the issue in the office. Our very early thinking is that there's perhaps a need for a forum that deals with mountain biking issues relevant to women.
The current forum is considered by some to be a somewhat intimidating place that can perhaps cause some people to lurk instead of posting as freely as they would like. We've had it suggested to us that if there was a women specific forum that many would be posters would be encouraged to get more involved. That's one issue for consideration.
Now we don't really want to open up a discussion about it here on the forum although you are free to obviously but if you have ideas/opinions that you'd really like us to consider seriously then please email us at moderator@singletrackworld.com
As food for thought our very early thought was that we'd create a new forum that was a place for women to predominantly discuss mountain bike issues with other women. Not a forum that excluded men but a forum where the topics discussed were restricted to issues relevant to women. It's a vague idea.. and ergo why we would really like your input too.
We appreciate it may be a topic that encourages strong opinions and so we are throwing the idea out there to see what feedback we can gather.
Over to you.
🙂
Never felt intimidated on here, or the old forum, never give it a second thought about posting on here, it could be worth a try but I dont think it would stop me from coming on here
Tracey
Mark - opinions and thoughts emailed to you.
Like Tracey I am not intimidated here, but I can understand why some women might. We are more sensitive than the fellas on here and I think the whole sense of humour thing that works between blokes doesnt always work with women (and vice versa).
I cringe at some of the anti female comments on here. A lot of the remarks wouldn't be allowed in the workplace, so maybe a place for the ladies to talk amongst themselves is a good idea.
As a bloke, I think there's too much 'laddish' behaviour on here. I find it embarrasing at times, tbh. I think some people need to have more respect. Friday Kylie/A+A can be a bit of fun, as can Friday Sexy Bloke, but some of the comments can be pretty crude, and unacceptable on such a forum, imo.
People need to remember they should show people on here as much respect as they would in real life.
[i]place for the ladies to talk amongst themselves is a good idea[/i]
would the ladies like to retire to the drawing room to discuss needlepoint while the men take their whiskies to the billard room to flog a manservant and look at some pornographic etchings, eh what?
Would a women's only forum maybe give the incorrect impression that people could be more 'laddish'? Would the behavior on the main forums deteriorate further?
[Mark - Administrator
Would a women's only forum maybe give the incorrect impression that people could be more 'laddish'? Would the behavior on the main forums deteriorate further?
Highly doubt it. Why would it? It's not as if we are gonna think "oh great a womans forum....now they'll never see what we're up...porn ahoy!!"
All I can say is.....it'll be very hard for most guys to keep their noses/opinions out of the womens forum.
@Stoner - thats one of the reasons I kind of sit on the fence on this, why should we 'retire to the drawing room (womens forum)', we all ride bikes don't we and we all signed up to join the Singletrack forum.
Would a women's only forum maybe give the incorrect impression that people could be more 'laddish'? Would the behavior on the main forums deteriorate further?
I doubt it. The mods seem pretty well on top of stuff, IMO.
It's improved in the new forum too, people do seem a lot more relaxed than they used to be, I reckon.
can we also have a men's forum for all the prostate/vasectomy discussions and "would you shag X" queries ?
while the men take their whiskies to the billard room to flog a manservant and look at some pornographic etchings, eh what?
Erm, maybe some of us might want to actually move into the 20th, and even 21st century... 😉
Maybe just have a Mleh-style free-for-all section, for all the children?
Oh...
Would the behavior on the main forums deteriorate further?
Think that would be pretty difficult. I think that, at times, behaviour is pretty bad, but there does seem to be a modicum of self policing that stops it getting out of hand. Don't think it would deteriorate further but it can be at the top end of "laddishness".
I'm sometimes embarrassed that what are pretty obviously female specific topics receive lots of ribald comments, purely on the "look how big my dick is" principle.
If the ladies had a separate section, they could possibly talk more freely. Don't think any sort of exclusion of males/females from the other's forums would work, even if it could be set up in the first place.
@GnarGnar - but on the otherhand, some blokes can contribute a lot to a womens forum with sensible advice, there has been some on here, so I am not convinced that keeping blokes out of a womens forum should be an option.
email sent
Don't similar communities exist already with Shecycles and the like?
I don't think we'd want to exclude anyone from any forums.. If we did have a women's forum it would have to be open to all.
can we also have a men's forum for all the prostate/vasectomy discussions
There should be a sticky vasectomy thread for sure. Oh my god, what did I just type...
Shecycles the website no longer exists.. A new forum has been set up elsewhere to cater for those regulars left without a home. It's that event that has really raised the issue we are discussing here.
MrAgreeable - the SheCycles forum still exists but the site as a whole closed and is now part of bikemagic.
Yes no women in the bar please or near the pool table.
Silly idea I think gives the wrong impression having a "women's own" forum, unless they want to talk about kittens and shoes.
Jenga -Think that would be pretty difficult. I think that, at times, behaviour is pretty bad, but there does seem to be a modicum of self policing that stops it getting out of hand. Don't think it would deteriorate further but it can be at the top end of "laddishness".
I'm sometimes embarrassed that what are pretty obviously female specific topics receive lots of ribald comments, purely on the "look how big my dick is" principle.
As internet forums go, this is about as tame as it gets.
I think I'm against. I'm not a fan of splitting up the sexes, I don't really see the point.
I'm not embarrassed to ask female related questions on here - asked one a while ago about periods and riding and got plenty of informative answers, and plenty of silly ones as well 😆 .
Although I suppose if it would encourage more women to use the site generally, they might realise that (mostly) it's not as bad on here as it seems at first 😉
bonkers. plot lost. (sorry).
I suppose the only thing you might need would be a bit more vigorous modding, but even that probably wouldn't be necessary with a bit of self policing (my impression is that most of the serious "women only" threads on here don't tend to descend into excessive laddish banter, though I could be wrong). The issue is that blokes might not give advice on women's topics where they could give useful input if they never visit that forum - I'm assuming that in order to keep the distinction clear the threads wouldn't be mixed in on the front page, which is the only place I usually go.
If the ladies had a separate section, they could possibly talk more freely.
Why? We'd all know you'd all be reading it anyway!
As internet forums go, this is about as tame as it gets.
I could point you at several tamer ones, at least one of which tends to have reasonable banter on (though is nowhere near as busy as here) - possibly down to the fact that they're for sports which have far more even distribution of the sexes.
Some gyms have women only areas due to some feeling intimidated by sweaty, grunting men so I imagine those guys put some women off here. It's not the most gay friendly place either so can we seperate them off too?
Sorry but I think its a stupid idea, its a bike forum we talk about bikes, doesn't matter whether your male, female, a bit of both, we ride bikes and thats what the forum is for and the off-topic obviously. This is just about the most civilised forum on the internet I think, most people on here are very helpful so can't see how there would be a problem in the first place.
I think if there's anything that puts off the women I know from posting here, it's not the testosterone, it's the nerdiness. 😉
This is just about the most civilised forum on the internet I think
Yet again, I do wonder what other forums people visit. Maybe it's the most civilized blokey/MTB forum on the internet, but that's about as far as it goes!
the more subsections a forum site has, the less I like it; that's largely why I use stw and not BM or others
classifieds & "other" is perfect IMO (with some possible tarting up of presentation & more threads per page)
then again, I don't see that behaviour here is awful or that the site is intimidating. the more major bitching seems to me to be between specific individuals rather than general hostility
I'm generally not for segregation, but then I'm a bloke. If there's enough women who fell that a forum predominately for women would be a "good thing" then go for it.
It's not the most gay friendly place either so can we seperate them off too?
and one for really [b]grumpy[/b] people ?
and non-whites ?
and left-handers ?
AND ROADIE-****ERS!
don't you just love apartheid ?
and non-whites ?
and left-handers ?
Yay! That's me!
I don't want my own forum; I'll get all lonely.. 🙁
I don't want my own forum; I'll get all lonely.. [:(]
but what if everyone else DID want you to ?
me and samuri and BWD would be the grumpy ****ers...
but what if everyone else DID want you to
you are on thin ice there sfb 😀
but what if everyone else DID want you to ?
You heartless beast!
(Runs off sobbing)
aracer -This is just about the most civilised forum on the internet I think
Yet again, I do wonder what other forums people visit. Maybe it's the most civilized blokey/MTB forum on the internet, but that's about as far as it goes!
Just go onto most forums about cars/movies/music/sports/politics....any of the subjects that most forums are about and I'd imagine you'd be pretty shocked. If you really wanted to see how deep the rabbit hole goes try the anonymous ones....except dont because there are somethings you just dont need to see.
What I want to know is why is this thread in the bike forum, when it's quite clearly OT?
I think the charm of ST (and probably one of the reasons why it's so busy) is the lack of splits - every other forum seems to have separate places for Rides/Kit/Chat/DH/XC/UK riding/foreign riding, it can be a right mess. ST works so well because it's open, mixed and (generally) fairly self-policing and sensible.
Separate Bike and Off-Topic forums are fine, splits beyond that I think are ultimately self-defeating.
My 2p.
We've got one for the roadies haven't we look up there on the right >>>^^^^^.
I assume there would be a strict moderation policy otherwise it'll just be all the regulars anyway.
Will it get enough traffic to get the Q's answered? The good thing about this one is the huge number of people to get a response out of.
I can't believe this is even being considered. I think the person most guilty of sexual discrimination on this forum is Mark for even putting the idea forward.
And how do all these "sensitive, female types" manage out in the real world?
Not a good idea imo. It's just words on a screen, it's not like people are physically shouting in each others faces while brandishing huge phallus (phalli?) as weapons...
Just go onto most forums about cars/movies/music/sports/politics....any of the subjects that most forums are about and I'd imagine you'd be pretty shocked.
But the point isn't that there are worse forums - I'm quite happy to accept that - the point is that there are also far better ones. My personal laddish threshold means I don't actually visit any of those you mention above - that and I'm just not that interested in such general interest subjects, I get my fill of such things on here.
Mark - AdministratorI don't think we'd want to exclude anyone from any forums.. If we did have a women's forum it would have to be open to all.
I remember a link from here to a womens oriented cycle website. It could have been shecycles, I can't quite remember. Anyhow, as I recall it, there was a really aggressive attitude displayed by quite a few of the female posters, (I won't name and shame but I recognised one of the names as a poster from here)in reaction to the fact that there were blokes visiting the site. I think it's inevitable that a womens specific site will encourage and attract exclusive attitudes and resultant bad feeling.
From a business POV, for any potential advertisers with gender specific products to sell, it could be quite appealing.
aracer -But the point isn't that there are worse forums - I'm quite happy to accept that - the point is that there are also far better ones. My personal laddish threshold means I don't actually visit any of those you mention above - that and I'm just not that interested in such general interest subjects, I get my fill of such things on here.
And my point is - there aren't actually that many cleaner/more self moderated forums out there. This is about as mild as it gets where a group of generally speaking, men, congregate on t'internet. Obviously you're sensitivities are different from mine. I wouldnt want any forum I frequent to descend into 4chan but there is little danger if any of that ever happening here. I dont have a problem with the banter on here and believe it or not I am a well adjusted member of society. Your idea of far better is probably my idea of dull or sterile, and I'm probably not alone. Now enough off topic ramblings.....what about....the laydeeeez.
OK maybe I was being pedantic - I accept this is one of the tamer and more civilized forums, but it's far from being the superlative, and the other ones I'm thinking of are also dominated by men. The difference I suspect is in the age profile. Not that I have a problem with here (even contribute on occasions), it's just that I can understand how it could be intimidating, and it could certainly be less so.
As a woman I wouldn't use a women only section as I'm interested in the opinion of people irrespective of gender.
Personally, if I had an issue that was so sensitive I didn't want men to comment I wouldn't be posting it on a public forum in the first place.
As to whether contributions to this site are too "blokey", crude or insensitive, if I start reading a post on here that I don't like I stop reading. It's an amazingly effective method of protecting my delicate sensibilities...
well said TheSponsor!
lol at druidh 🙂
You suggesting that women are being overly sensitive is like a hungry shark saying, 'come on in the water is lovely and I don't bite' 🙂
I may be the one voicing this but it is a discussion we have had at 'Singletrack' and this is a genuine discussion of the seemingly real issue that there are proportionately more women lurkers than men. For some reason this forum, and maybe it's the whole site, is not attracting the interaction of as many women as it should. For example.. our Facebook page breaks down into 90% male 10% female. If that proportion reflected the gender bias on this site then then 10% of all posts should be from women on here. It's a very long way from that. So the discussion here is to address that 'issue'. Is it an issue? Is a women's specific forum a way to address this problem? is it a problem?
We are aware that mountain biking is a theoretically asexual sport/activity that is heavily biased towards men. It's an issue that needs to be discussed we think. We've tried to make the mag as gender inclusive as possible.. Covering women's specific kit/bikes.. stories featuring women.. written by women.. It's hard to get the right balance of course. The great thing about the website though is we can include you lot in the discussion. So opening up the issue a bit wider than just the idea of a women's forum.. is there anything we should be doing to make the site in general a more gender inclusive place? The ethos of the forum has been mentioned a few times.. The issues around laddish behavior etc. Thoughts?
I really don't see what more you need to do, maybe you could have a dedicated couple of pages in the mag for womens stuff, a dedicated section in the reviews section for womens stuff. File the womans forum idea in the bin though. You'll be changing the green on the website to pink next 🙄
Definitely DON'T want a women's only forum! Yes, this place can be quite intimidating until you get used to it but I've always thought of myself as a mountain biker first.
The banter can be fun, you don't have to reply, sometimes it's best to ignore some stuff although I do feel that some posts can be quite offensive although not specifically to women. We can definitely do without the explicit remarks. A thick skin is a definite advantage!
I will happily ask for advice, even non-mtb related stuff, and will happily offer my comments/experiences if I feel it's worth posting up.
I used to be an active member of SheCycles, organised some SheCycles girlie rides at Swinley Forest AND had to deal with the flak on here, not mentioning any names naturally but it's easy to guess 😉
As regards Facebook, I just don't have time or the inclination for that stuff.
I have always found the mag to be very pro-women and not patronising in the least, part of the reason why I subscribe.
Frankly, let's just forget about this PC crap and "inclusive" nonsense and talk bikes 😀
Mark - Administratorour Facebook page breaks down into 90% male 10% female. If that proportion reflected the gender bias on this site then then 10% of all posts should be from women on here.
I suspect that the proportion of male: female facebook users does not reflect society - i.e. there'll be proportionately [i]more[/i] females on Facebook
A quick Google found this:
http://midnightexcess.wordpress.com/2007/11/23/facebook-member-stats-an-update/
The fact that so much different content is bundled together on the front page of the forum is what makes STW's forum so great. Please don't turn it into MTBR (no offense to members!)
My twopenne'th, I think thesponsor talks a lot of sense. I use the same principle, I look at a thread, if I see nothing there of interest, I go elsewhere. Sometimes opinions are expressed which I disagree strongly with, in which case I either put my own point, or, again sod off elsewhere. It's the tv principle, if you don't like what's on, change channel. If there is a women's forum, I'll probably spend as much time on there, because there are likely to be as many interesting topics. I'll happily browse through a women's magazine just out of interest. I'm not gay or owt. ;0)
Many of the women on here are more than capable of standing up for themselves, and the cutting ripost works as well from either gender, after all, it's never going to be a nose-to-nose confrontation.
I appreciate that STW are thinking about the needs of women, but I also think that it's not necessary to have a separate forum. Didn't someone say recently as well that the shecycles forum had tumble weed rolling around it (before it closed!)
I agree with other posters that it's the bike related knowledge (sometimes!) that is handy on here and that can come from either sex. Also, is being a member of and posting on a forum a bit of a male dominated past-time anyway? That might explain the Facebook friends/forum posts discrepancy. I'm not sure about that - I only post on two and the other non bike one is male dominated as well, so maybe my perception is skewed.
Having said that, it was nice to read that thread recently and discover that there are quite a lot of women on here.
I don't think there's a need to have a womens forum. I've posted on here before now asking for women bike related advice and had some useful replies, even from the blokes!
Just keep it as is 🙂
Didn't someone say recently as well that the shecycles forum had tumble weed rolling around it (before it closed!)
Exactly what I was going to say. A women's only forum that didn't attract many people that didn't post on here or BM already.
First of all can I just say that's it is really thoughfull of you guys to put this idea forward, but really I can't think of aything worse. Well, i can but I'm not going to repeat it in front of the sensitive lads 😉
If a dedicated women only site wouldn't work, with lots of money and enthusiasm thrown at it, I can't for the life of me see why a sectioned forum area on this site would. But hey, whatever. I don't think it'd be a BAD thing to try, but just a bit silly.
Though it's a position I've been lambasted for in in the past, my experience is that women don't ride bikes - they're wives or girlfriends dragged along.
Of course, like every ridiculously hyperbolic statement, there are exceptions, but I really don't think I'm too wide of the mark (there's a pun) saying that.
Tell you what would work, and be inclusive for the females... a "Singletrack Widows" section, for all the partners I know who've got their own laptop and sit twittering themselves to a frenzy when hubby is going all Slow Reeezzaaaay on them.
I'm a woman and I really like STW. Took me a while to post, but now I don't think twice. Yes, you get the odd dodgy remark, but to be fair one of the other guys will nearly always come to the rescue.
On the whole, the guys on here are really cool and I really appreciate their advice. It is extra cool when I more experienced woman can give some advice - but that's more because it's a novelty than anything else. I wouldn't else a women's only site. Yes, here can be a bit laddish, but I have two older brothers and a husband - seriously, I can cope!
Great site btw guys!
Well, i can but I'm not going to repeat it in front of the sensitive lads
(Covers ears, in fear of Clarey 'Potty Mouth' Morris...) 😳
Do women ride bike differently to men then?
Side saddle or something?
If we have a women's forum can we have one for Stoats as well?
Stoats? What about Ferrets? Weasels? Pine Martens?
Eh? Eh?
Ferretist....
Though it's a position I've been lambasted for in in the past, my experience is that women don't ride bikes - they're wives or girlfriends dragged along.Of course, like every ridiculously hyperbolic statement, there are exceptions, but I really don't think I'm too wide of the mark (there's a pun) saying that.
My brain's too tired for an articulate lambast so I'll have to settle for a "bo!!ocks".
less kittens more cookery!
Thought about it alot since the first post, been on here for a number of years, never been offended, like the banter, why change a good thing, my vote would be to change nothing
Tracey
Though it's a position I've been lambasted for in in the past, [b]my experience[/b] is that women don't ride bikes - they're wives or girlfriends dragged along.
It's statements like this that make me realise how lucky [b]I[/b] am.
I am one of the female 'lurkers', and I read more than I post mainly because I find someone has often already posted a similar thread. I'm quite happy to post aswell though. I have used bikemagic and shecycles and didnt like either of them but singletrack is much better (and friendlier) and doesnt seem so cliquey. I dont think a womens section is needed, if you need to know anything specific to women just put it in the thread title to get relevant answers.
[i]Do women ride bike differently to men then?
Side saddle or something?[/i]
No but they do have a suction cup to stop them sliding off the saddle.
I think it's a good idea. I don't post on here that often because of some of the things I read I find offensive. Whether it would work or not is another matter. I can imagine adverse comments if a girls only ride was organised.
Anway I'll go back to lurking once a week, tara...
[i]Though it's a position I've been lambasted for in in the past, my experience is that women don't ride bikes - they're wives or girlfriends dragged along.[/i]
Happy to say that statement does not apply to me 😆
Nor me aleigh, my boyfriend doesnt ride bikes he likes them to have engines ! I even build up my own bikes and do my own maintainence aswell 😀
so we won't be seeing a women's shedfire bike then! 😆 at Drac and his suction cup.
PinkOrange5, I really can't believe there is so much on here you find offensive and that it would actually stop you posting, join in!
Thanks, but no thanks. Any lady who is too delicate for STW is too delicate for mountain biking IMO.
Oh and Rudeboy, I think you'll find that Mlehworld has quite a high female membership. SOme of them are even real.
Oh, and Brant, I'm a biker's girlfriend, but I rode bikes before I met him too.
I just think the men on here need to be bit more respectful towards the lasses and restrain their "laddish" sides a bit. There are abound to be loads of women reading the site but not posting as they are too intimidated. It's fair enough the extrovert girls being able to enjoy the site, but not everybody is a confident extrovert. I've taken the time to be nice and helpful to the everybody (just my nature) and I've made a couple really, really good female friends.
My experience of another forum that had a women section was that it was pretty inactive - due to the much smaller number of women involved compared to men. Then as soon as a woman posted the men would be all over it, rather defeating the object. When the software was updated the women's section was dropped.
That's just one example of course.