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There have been a few attempts at 2WD bikes in the past, they are a bit complicated but apparently brilliant to ride. But with an e-bike you could just have a little hub motor and everything else you need is already present.
Great idea no?
I actually tried to make a 2wd years ago, so obviously I agree with you. 🙂
With modern electronics and load balancing between the wheels it should have incredible grip/drive.
Yeah you could have dynamic torque distribution like cars have.
Really?
You actually think there would be significant benefits for enough riders?
You actually think there would be significant benefits for enough riders?
Since when did that have anything to do with selling new bicycle parts? 😉
You actually think there would be significant benefits for enough riders?
I think it would be fun, and that's what recreational bike riding is about isn't it?
The problem of maximum utility for humanity from bikes has already been solved. Doesn't mean we can't invent new cool stuff does it?
Unsprung weight - most e-bikes have the motor located around the bottom bracket, with drive going to the rear wheel via a conventional drivetrain.
Potentially, you could take the torque from the rear axle and feed it to the front wheel with a system of bevel gears and telescoping shafts as per Christini 2wd bike, but the same issues of maintenance remain with potentially far greater torque from a motor to deal with.
It's a brilliant idea in concept though, imagine the extra traction and control with climbing an enduro bike if you could direct some torque to your front wheel...
Looks like there’s plenty of ‘home made’ options, mostly BSOs with 2 hub motors and a million batteries.
Reckon a 2wd car would be of comparable weight...
It’s a brilliant idea in concept though, imagine the extra traction and control with climbing
Given that nearly all your weight is on the back wheel, bugger all?
It’s a great idea. The Yamaha/Öhlins 2wd Enduro / MX / street system was very good indeed, especially uphill, off-road, but probably failed in that arena because of market timing. It’s certainly a technology that is going to come back in motorcycling, so why not mountain biking.
Given that nearly all your weight is on the back wheel, bugger all?
Ever ridden up something very steep? You put your weight over the front so you don't fall over backwards, and this is when your rear wheel slips and you stop. From reading reviews of previous 2wd attempts, they climb up anything.
My cargo bike is basically 2wd, hub motor on the front wheel and human power rear?!
Its helpful getting up muddy slopes that you normally wouldnt make it up with slick tyres. Tbf just putting a mountain bike rear tyre on would Make more difference.
Wouldnt like the extra weight of a hub motor on a normal bike though.
You can't get your weight over the front on anything REALLY steep, it's still over the back.
In the scenario you describe, which I may have experienced once or twice in 30+ years of riding, I guess it might help.
BUT you are saying you have enough traction to wheelie and fall off the back, then you move your weight forward to avoid that and you get wheelspin? Move your weight back...basic climbing skill.
PJM1974
...Potentially, you could take the torque from the rear axle and feed it to the front wheel with a system of bevel gears and telescoping shafts as per Christini 2wd bike, but the same issues of maintenance remain with potentially far greater torque from a motor to deal with.
A certain amount of that torque also acts on your steering whereas a 2wd eBike would not have to cope with it.
I suspect we'll see it first on offroad eMBikes.
It should simplify steep offroad climbs. At the moment expertise is required to avoid the backwards loop on loose steep climbs when trying to finesse between traction and forward progress.
Not a replacement for a 'proper' bike but another fun toy.
Ever ridden up something very steep? You put your weight over the front so you don’t fall over backwards, and this is when your rear wheel slips and you stop. From reading reviews of previous 2wd attempts, they climb up anything.
Mates of mine with FS ebikes can get up anything anyway, with the right tyres.
To have 2wd, you'd either need two batteries, meaning even heavier, or run off one battery, and deplete the range.
There’s a reason that although almost all off-road vehicles are AWD, off-road motorcycles remain rear drive!
Don't forget the impact a driven front wheel would have on steering and control.
There would be an increase in gyroscopic forces that would make the steering heavy and awkward.
For that reason (among others) I'm out :o)
eh? People already use front hub motors on bicycles
Don’t forget the impact a driven front wheel would have on steering and control.
There would be an increase in gyroscopic forces that would make the steering heavy and awkward.
I'm not sure it would, those hub motors used on things like the Ribble bikes are tiny. Barely bigger than a dynamo and put out 250W. It might be noticeable as unpsrung weight, but not enough to be detrimental I'd have thought. No one ever decided SID's were better than Lyrics because the lowers weigh half a lb less.
A better control system might be a sort of reverse-abs that adds extra power up front (in addition to the normal torque/cadence sensing on the cranks) when it senses the rear wheel moving significantly faster.
To have 2wd, you’d either need two batteries, meaning even heavier, or run off one battery, and deplete the range.
Same power output, just split between two motors. You could probably save some of the weight from the 'main' motor too if it was an integrated system.
In the scenario you describe, which I may have experienced once or twice in 30+ years of riding, I guess it might help.
You've only spun the rear wheel out on a climb, twice, in 30 years?
Roots, rocks, steps, muddy bits, none* of those have ever brought you to a standstill because the back wheel spun on them?
Having a bit of 'pull' to offset those times when you have to back off and unweight the rear of the bike over stuff would be pretty cool.
*well I suppose one or two of them might have contributed to you're only 2 failed climbs.
I crashed a JUMP ebike with a front hub motor on wet cobbles last year. That was definitely a power/steering/traction issue and not the £8 craft beer I had been drinking.
They exist. I have ridden one. A 2wd fat bike on snow in the alps
Grip was amazing you could climb things that would not have been possible on a bike ever
Heavy as though with 4" tyres 2 motors and battery
We reckoned you go from led deux alps to alpe d huez and back on a single charge
Molgrips that's not what either of us said.
Move your weight back…basic climbing skill.
FFS. I've only been MTBing all over the UK for 30 years, what do I know about climbing? If you don't run out of traction on steep stuff then you aren't riding steep stuff. There are tons of trails that people only ride down because it's simply not possible to ride up them - on a 1WD bike, that is.
Read the stories about 2WD bikes that already exist, before theorising.
Well-timed thread, there is now Christini 2WD e-bike on the frontpage.
I had an urban arrow cargo bike, which was great, but at a max GVW of around 200kg, the 250w support could have been more effective.
Considered getting a Front wheel motor to complement the rear driven mid motor. Would've been a total 500W 2WD.
Our Yuba El Mundo is FWD electric assist. I thought it was going to be awful, but im pretty impressed. Its been solid so far and pulls well. Its a rigid town bike mind, there is no way i would want that weight on an off road wheel.
Read the stories about 2WD bikes that already exist, before theorising.
Mibbe you should read the stories, before starting a thread stating that there are none?.
Abominable
FFS. I’ve only been MTBing all over the UK for 30 years, what do I know about climbing? If you don’t run out of traction on steep stuff then you aren’t riding steep stuff. There are tons of trails that people only ride down because it’s simply not possible to ride up them – on a 1WD bike, that is.
Read the stories about 2WD bikes that already exist, before theorising.
Bit of a one trick pony though... or very niche. Potentially you end up with something that can climb but not descend or jump if its got a front hub...
Eugh, cant work out how to embed it.
....oh, it just does it.
Potentially you end up with something that can climb but not descend or jump if its got a front hub
Would it really impair its abilities that much? We're not talking about kgs of metal on the front wheel are we?
Mibbe you should read the stories, before starting a thread stating that there are none?
Ok but it's a bit more social to start a discussion than to just google on my own and keep it to myself, no? Thought we could have a fun discussion about a bit of a novelty idea, not have both my climbing ability and social skills dragged.
I think even on stuff that is doable on 1WD it'd be easier on 2WD as you could sit and spin and require less body movement. There'd be a switch to engage it, with a few different modes on tap.
I've seen someone locally heading up the hill to Ashton Court trails riding a cruiser/ clunker with front and rear hub motors. He looked happy.
It's not quite the same unfettered benefit as AWD on a car/truck though - if you wheelspin the front wheel loses lateral grip and you can't balance.
I guess cost/complication/lack of market. Or they're waiting to release it next year when all the trend following sheeple have bought ebikes so they can sell them a new bike 😉
Even if a 2wd bike would make a tiny number of climbs easier, I quite like to practice/use skills, or just walk, rather than spend £££ on a heavy bike with more to go wrong and lug it round lots of rides for that tiny benefit (sorry, I am based!)
I don't think 2wd would make a huge difference to steep climbing - when you are on that point where its spin the rear wheel or loop out there is no almost weight on the front even with your chest on the bars.
A 2wd fat bike does make the most sense, no shortage of traction to tractor up snowy hills. Imagine passing stranded cars on that thing 😁
That Rokon riding looks bloody dull! 🤦♀️
https://bournemouthcyclist.co.uk/2017/03/24/snow-biking-on-the-rossignol-7g/
This is an article on the 2wd Ebikes me and Debz hired in France
TJ . Thats a fail. We were climbing up a snow and ice covered GR up a real mountain. You would have struggled to walk up it, with the assist turned down to 1/5 and pedaling away to maintain some balance it was possible to climb stuff that would have been impossible on a man powered bike
Thses were so heavy that there was enough weight to maintain traction. We got buried waist deep at one point and man handing them through the snow was nearly impossible
The grip from a 4" tyre was huge , there was another GR we rode down with switchbacks , perfectly ridable on a FS , we didnt attempt it on the Ebikes , too unweildly
when you are on that point where its spin the rear wheel or loop out there is no almost weight on the front even with your chest on the bars.
Normally you feather your weight between keeping the front wheel down and keeping traction on the back wheel. That's why the front lifts. If you had drive on the front wheel, you could lean on it as much as you want. From what I've read that's what you do with them.
Would it really impair its abilities that much? We’re not talking about kgs of metal on the front wheel are we?
I guess it depends but I guess what I mean is the last thing I want on a big drop off when I'm tired is a nose heavy bike but I'm picturing something like a hill climb specialist bike for offroad (or reverse DH bike). At the moment for example I see stuff that is "possible on a ebike" or even possible on a XC bike with a grippy tyre... and what I'm thinking is if you want to go beyond what a ebike can currently get up then you'd change a lot of geometry on the "normal trail/enduro" spec as well. I can see a fun niche where you climb the near impossible then decend the fireroad type thing...?
Alright then, fussy pants - you can switch the front wheel with a normal one when you want a perfectly balanced bike.
If you had drive on the front wheel, you could lean on it as much as you want
Assuming that wheel won't spin out...
Singletrackminds post is interesting, kind of shoes how limited benefit there is and how limited the bike was too.
Given that nearly all your weight is on the back wheel, bugger all?
TBH it depends upon the bike. A hardtail won't be subject to pedal induced suspension movement, but something like an enduro bike will. If you've ridden a slack enduro bike up a chalky, slippery incline then you'll know that it's a constant balancing act - the incline will push your weight backwards, so you need to keep your body low to hold the front end down. Moreover, any pedal induced squat will break traction, causing a loss of momentum when least needed. A 2wd system with a locked torque distribution would allow you to put more weight over the front when climbing.
Admittedly, this is a bit of a straw man example that only applies to me when my local trails are sodden through and I normally get off and push, but if a 2wd system could be incorporated into an e-bike then it would be a giggle to climb.
Alright then, fussy pants – you can switch the front wheel with a normal one when you want a perfectly balanced bike.
I'm really just pointing out it's quite possibly very niche.
I can see it being a good laugh .. (like road bike hill climbs etc.) but going from what's possible on a RWD e-bike to a "hill climb challenge" would be creating a bike pretty much dedicated to a one trick pony. Even a lazy unfit guy like me 99%? of my riding I can get up unassisted (sometimes I don't but that's lazyness) but there is always that little bit but its generally such a tiny part of the overall ride.
If you were to say on the other hand where an ebike might be "nice" (for a lazy,unfit me) that's over 50% of the ride by time... so I'm more willing to accept cost/compromises etc.
I’m really just pointing out it’s quite possibly very niche.
Of course it is!
Even a lazy unfit guy like me 99%? of my riding I can get up unassisted
You might find that your local trails are your local trails because they are rideable. More capable bikes tend to open up more trails.
Anyway I think that 2WD bikes coudl also be useful in loose conditions too - could make drifting interesting!
You might find that your local trails are your local trails because they are rideable. More capable bikes tend to open up more trails.
I can sorta see that... it's just current e-bikes are quite capable of climbing stuff you really don't want to stop/fall anyway.... and whereby on my bike I often have a "can we ride this" or "how far up can we get" it's more a bit of fun BUT it's fun because it's such a one off. I can't see it being fun if its something like 50% of the ride? Maybe I'm wrong .. lots of people do trials .. and perhaps its like that?
On the times I've borrowed/hired e-bikes the most fun for me is the uphill flow bit... with the odd "cool that would have been next to impossible on my bike"...
On the times I’ve borrowed/hired e-bikes the most fun for me is the uphill flow bit… with the odd “cool that would have been next to impossible on my bike”…
Yup. One local spot here has 6 or 7 cracking wee tracks cut in from one fire road down to the next one, with no way of pedalling back up to do repeat runs, only option is to push up, which gets a bit grim after a while.
But take an ebike there, you can pedal up any of them, that's a whole lot more riding, and way more fun.
My biking consists mostly of slogging through boggy stuff. Rear wheel spins are frequent trying to maintain some momentum through the gloop. This in a fatbike with 4.8 bud and lou (that's tyres for non fatbikers).
Forget 2wd for climbing, it would be great for just getting along the flat at the moment.
Off to the alps fatbiking tomorrow, really fancy Singletrackminds Rossignol 😁