[Closed] Why is there no periodisation in Zwift plans? Training app rant.

Mainly because they are all competing to give quick gainz quick they don’t care if you end up burnt out and I’ll. you saw massive gains quickly so were enthused about their system

They are also applying a one size fits all plan- which it doesn’t.

If your using it long term you’d be better programming your own into your chosen ecosystem

why do you need a training app if you know so much already?

I kind of feel your pain. I left Zwift because I'm not sociable enough to ride with many people in real life, let alone virtually, and I didn't feel like there was enough structure to it. Went to Sufferfest and enjoy it but agree it can feel like the aim is to just hurt you as much and as often as possible.

I completed a couple of the Sufferfest plans and they did incorporate rest days/weeks, as well as dropping the intensity for some of the sessions depending where I was in the plan. I think it's far from perfect but it's good enough for my needs and my assumption is that if you want more then you need to pay more for a tailored plan.

What I do find frustrating is the inability to pause a plan, shift the whole plan, or make it more flexible to accommodate for other activity - outdoor rides, long swim, etc. As the weather has improved and I'm outside more I've stopped using plans as they are too inflexible. I just ride outdoors when I can, do other activities, and when I've only got an hour or so I disappear into the garage and beast myself on one of the Sufferfest sessions.

why do you need a training app if you know so much already?

This. Determine your meso cycles and methodology and have at it and if you want someone to prescribe intervals buy WKO5 and do whatever it tells you for whatever it is you are working on.

Have a look at Xert, if you don’t want to look at a moving graph you can do your workouts when on Zwift or even........ outside!

When and how long you train for is effectively set by you, the system adjusts to suit. You set the rate of improvement, if you have a target event and so on. Takes a few sessions for the system to learn about you then I find it works really well

I do (kind of) see your point. If your only issue with Traineroad is that it's dull (which it can be) then I know some people generate a plan on Traineroad and then do the actual sessions on Zwift.

You cannot import automatically so I think this will mean re-creating the TR sessions manually in the Zwift training generator app. Or I suppose you could just time your own intervals as you go, for the simpler workouts.

Also you would unfortunately need two subscriptions of course.

Why can’t a training app just get the basics right?

Because the basics are too simple, you'd quickly be left wondering why you were paying for an app...

See Zwift in particular, those workouts are pointlessly complicated looking, I guess maybe an element of keeping you interested, but I'll bet a huge element of making it so complicated that people fear ever trying to train by themselves...

Understanding the broad principles of training doesn't mean you want to or have the time to apply to the minutia of every training session.

There is no reason why zwift etc, couldn't apply those broad principles while still keeping some variety and interest in each individual session, it would make more sense for them to do so than for all users to have to develop their own plans and individual session.

Unfortunately they seem to instead lean towards the "no pain no gain" principle for entertainment purposes rather than training effectiveness.

I've never really looked at the plans on Zwift but as said, it's probably because their target audience wouldn't really engage with a "22 week plan for a one week stage event". Plus with a longer plan you need to be able to adjust to circumstances - a holiday week, an illness etc. Being totally prescriptive doesn't make sense for much more than 8-10 weeks, but I agree it's odd there isn't even one easy week in there.

Just buy the Cyclists Training Bible and put together your own. Much more fun anyway.

I had my first go at a workplan in Jan'20 with https://whatsonzwift.com/workouts/tt-tuneup .

Initially I found the first ~3/4 weeks far too easy and I was supplementing them with Zwift TTs and races plus the odd ride outdoors. Then suddenly the workload became taxing and I had to stop the supplemental stuff. A week or two later and I was dead just attempting a limited number of the workouts.

Around the middle of the workplan I felt the fittest I've been in the last five years, but I felt completely drained by week 8. All lost now after Covid and various other setbacks since.

I've taken a much looser approach to everything. I am planning 1 block at a time, 3 weeks of progressive overload and one easy week. At least 1 recovery day a week. If I'm not ready to start the next block for whatever reason it doesn't matter. Periodisation for a single goal event just doesn't seem right to me for a plucky amateur and the level of training doesn't warrant it imho. However I will add quality closer to 'needing' it and step back if I don't need it. Being totally flexible with each block. Example my FTP is 84.5% of Vo2MAX I know my FTP cannot get any higher than that so will dedicate a block to raising VO2MAX before reverting to FTP type stuff. Or when I was doing team time trials on Zwift having to do a 1 minute pull was killing me so I put some effort into improving FRC for a block.

I've also done very varied interval training doing FTP, FRC and VO2MAX efforts on back to back days. Even at 46 I was able to do this for a while but I have huge amounts of time to recover because I pretty much just sit or sleep the rest of the time 🙂

Sounds like you know plenty enough to structure your own...I gave up on TrainerRoad plans a couple of years back and feel I've benefitted from doing my own thing.

I write my workouts in TP and ride them in Zwift, super easy.

There's also TrainerDay which has a good database of workouts if you fancy some variation, send them into TP and tweak if/as you wish and proceed as above.

You can push TR workouts outdoors - I've not done an indoor workout since March - maybe not quite as effective due to traffic/terrain/etc. but still pretty good. I've done outdoor sessions on singlespeed fat bike, MTB and road bike like this. You can create your own workouts in Garmin Connect and push them to your head unit as well.

I do agree with the long term periodisation issue though - the plans are very much "here's your A race, this is the plan to get there" - there isn't the ebb and flow that you'd get with things being properly periodised.

Zwift (and it seems Sufferfest) are very much like "What do you mean you don't like being slapped in the face?"

@tonyD - with TR you can shift things around, put in rest/holiday/illness periods and the like. Late back from work one day so you miss a workout? Just drag and drop it to another day.

I'm on their "Adaptive Training" beta program - the idea is that it assesses how you performed each workout and potentially changes the next workout of that type. So if you did a VO2max workout and struggled then it would/should make the next such workout a little easier. At the moment I'm mid-way through a set of plans that don't work with AT so can't comment on how well it achieves this. What I've not seen in any of TR's blurb is whether periodisation is part of the underlying structure.

The answer to the 'so why don't you do it yourself' question is easy. I'd rather spend money to buy prescription and entertainment.

It really isn't hard to pick up the basics. I probably couldn't sit here and confidently argue with you over the minute detail of lactate states, but two minutes on google, a few abstracts and metastudies and anyone will realise that 1) Low cadence work is a gimmick and makes you slower and 2) You need to periodise your training or you will stagnate or burn out.

I'm also not a professional cyclist, and I have a full-time job, so sitting there and writing five sessions a week to import through WKO4/5 is time I'd rather spend elsewhere, and none of that goes very fat to entertain me and distract me from the fact that I am on a trainer. Both Zwift and SF sell these; but for some (probably making money) reason, they assume their riders are all actually schmucks. I could use TP, but I sacked TP when intervals.icu got properly good.

Even the much vaunted trainerroad has recently done almost a complete 180; having spent about 6 years unable to provide any evidence for the heavy-bulk sweetspot filler of their training in the face of study after study that suggests that you don't get as fast as if you polarise.

Maybe I'll try xert, but it's not compatible with my Wahoo Bolt and it does sound a lot like more staring at bar charts.

Another XERT user here. It can be a bit complex but boiling it down The basic philosophy is you need to undergo enough strain to progress.

A long workout taken steady clocks up strain at a lower rate whereas a intensity workout clocks it up faster. All you need to do is do sufficient strain anyway you like.

I tend to plan the week by putting in my long rides - the ones I enjoy - and then dropping in a few interval sessions and then checking that I’ve got enough strain to make progression. I am following slow improvement so it only takes a little extra intensity or slightly longer rides week on week to show improvement.

There are some garmin screens too which track strain - if I have a target amount of strain for a ride and I need to boost strain a bit might do a few efforts sprinkled in.

There is a little training pacer graph which shows your strain against plan. I just do enough to keep the arrow in the middle.

It allows you to train unstructured but while following a structured progression in volume/intensity.

Sounds like your money would be better spent on a coach.

Trail_rat

This is something I've considered - but a coach is likely £50/mo Vs £5/mo for an app - and still doesn't really solve the entertainment issue (except in that they can plan outdoor sessions for you!).

We tbh if you want something that suits your goals rather than a generic quick gain program that in zwift case is an afterthought to the entertainment side.

Most of my coached buddies do their coach prescribed sessions within the zwift architecture for the boredom effect

Don't mean to be harsh, but it sounds to me like you are expecting too much for nothing. You say that Zwift and SF seem to think their customers are schmucks because they are happy to pay £12 per month to use the app without demanding personalised training plans? Given their subscription levels I'd say their business model is about right, why would they give away more than they need to?

A coach would cost you £50 per month yet you expect an app to do the same for £12, and entertain you, and provide all the data analysis you need, and...? Your time is too precious to figure it out yourself, but you expect someone else to essentially give you their time for free?

Maybe I need more coffee, but this seems entirely unreasonable to me.

@tonyd

When did £144/year*3million users become free? £432m/annum? I'm not asking for a personalised plan, I'm just asking for their generic plans to abide by the most basic rules of sport science, known and practiced for the last 50 years+.

Why would it not be a good thing that everyone using these platforms gets training that makes them faster?

Do you really think it's harder to program one week of recovery every three than just 10 weeks of intervals?

Is this where something like Training Peaks comes in?  A lot less generalised and you get to choose a plan for your requirements from a professional coach without it being a one size fits all thing.

Trainer Road are introducing “adaptive training” for precisely this purpose. You could always learn enough to adapt for yourself, or pay for a coach.

Options are there for you.

Have you had a look around on 'What's on Zwift'? Some of the custom workouts and plans on there are a little less random. For example:

https://whatsonzwift.com/workouts/zwift-fitness-ftp-challenge#zwift-fitness-ftp-challenge

… filler of their training in the face of study after study that suggests that you don’t get as fast as if you polarise.

TR do have polarised plans now. They’re not included in their plan builder or AT structure yet, but they’re there (I followed one and enjoyed it).

That doesn’t help you with the blue wall of doom though.

When did £144/year*3million users become free?

You pay £144 per year for a given level of functionality. If that level of functionality is enough to attract and retain 3 million paying customers then they are doing something right. It really shouldn't matter to you how much money they make, either the functionality you get for your £12/month is enough for you, or it isn't. If it isn't, go elsewhere. If nobody is giving you enough for your £12/month then perhaps you need to revisit your expectations.

Do you really think it’s harder to program one week of recovery every three than just 10 weeks of intervals?

I just loaded up a 12 week all-purpose road plan in Sufferfest, advanced level, indoor and outdoor options. In weeks 3, 7, and 11 the intensity drops to about 60% - isn't this recovery?

Why would it not be a good thing that everyone using these platforms gets training that makes them faster?

Not looked at other platform forums but the Sufferfest community all seem to think they get faster as a result of the app/training plans.

I agree that the Zwift plans are junk, but most people I know who use them are not following them religiously, they dip in and out and pick sessions as they want.
I haven't used TR so cannot comment on the plans, I just never fancied staring at bar charts!
I have been using Sufferfest for a couple of years now, there is an element of periodisation built in to the plans, every third or fourth week will generally have sub-threshold workouts only. I did prefer it before they put the calendar in the app, the plan would be hosted on TP and you then had the freedom to swap days around much easier, the calendar function in sf is just not good! What I also remember, is that before they expanded the video range last year, the easy weeks were often using other sessions with the notes on TP saying to adjust difficulty to 60% (or something similar)

Why would it not be a good thing that everyone using these platforms gets training that makes them faster?

Do you really think it’s harder to program one week of recovery every three than just 10 weeks of intervals?

It's more obvious on Zwift but no matter what they look like TR, Sufferfest etc are all MMOs at heart. Their business model depends on on people spending time online, not people getting better or achieving tangible goals both of which significantly reduce the chances of you paying for another month.

The training programs are there to give you targets, but the target is finishing the program, not especially getting faster fitter etc. You might sign up for it for that purpose but its not why they're selling you it. The ideal result for them is you improve just enough to notice but no more, at which point you sign on for another and so on.

Their worth as a company is determined by having a number of active users, the more active they are, the more time they're logged in, the more zwift et al are worth so giving you days off recovery weeks go outside stuff isn't hard but it's a bad idea for them.
In zwift's case especially, they need user numbers online all the time. Any MMO lives and dies on user numbers, if people log in and there's no one else there they don't stay, it's why they limit to 3 worlds at any given time and it's why they want you there all the time.

I've tried to follow the zwift workouts before and the idea that the days are set and you cannot move them around is just stupid - but its a secondary process compared to the riding / racing in zwift.

I moved to Trainer road and yes the charts are dull - but it depends on what you are training for.
I was willing to scarifice myself to the process for the hours at a time.. its not the end of the workd and i can either watch their podcasts or listen to music.

I think in order to get the best possible result from trainer road you need to either have an understanding of what you are capable of - in terms of training load and / or watch their videos.

Also the low volumne plan - which i'm on allows me to slot in outdoor rides which allow me to actually do the bit i like ( riding a bike normally ) without over doing it.

If neither of these ideas work for you - join a club or get a coach... the money is more but i know people who have had a coach and they have worked harder because of it.

Deleted my reply to tonyd as I've realised I'm being trolled! 😀

Sufferfest plans incorprate easy weeks (third or fourth week depending on plan that you choose), plus their new set of inspiration videos are slotted in regularly throughout the week so you don't always have a high intensity workout.  I always used to incorporate strength, so I had a further 'light' session as strength was always paired with cadence builds or similar (high cadence work, not low).

Their periodisation came through adding the half-monty test midway through the plan so the workouts got harder to match your expected gains from the plan.

Their whole ethos though is that base doesn't work, and you need HIIT.  If you don't align with that, you aren't going to like them.  I got to my fittest ever level last year using their plans (change of circumstance means i can't train indoors regulalry now, so not using them and seeing my fitness wither).

You could getting a series of workouts from a coach and just slotting them into TP on your own schedule.  Tom Bell (HighNorth) does this.

Deleted my reply to tonyd as I’ve realised I’m being trolled!

Because I'm not agreeing with you?

I always considered the training plans pointless fluff. Zwift is there for racing, IMO. When it's time to do a general hard workout in my training plan (such as it is) I do a Zwift race because it's shorter, much higher intensity and more consistent than anything I can do on road.

You can also use Today’s Plan with Zwift. Today’s plan sessions - either your own or any of the small>large plans you can purchase are synced with Zwift. Maybe use Today’s Plan to plan it out and use Zwift.

I found them all useless apart from TrainerRoad.

There was very similar criticism of TR here:

To be fair to them the TR launched adaptive training on the back of user feedback and I’ve been on the iOS beta for a while which is good. Think they publicly discussed the above on YouTube with their CEO, coach and science lead and we’re very open about polarised / overtraining etc.

Still never beat a 1:1 coach but in reality a good one is 10x the cost of these Apps.

In short, try adaptive training on TR if it is public now.

Slight thread hijack here but...

I've not used Sufferfest for probably six or seven years now. Has it changed much since then or is it just more of the same workouts?
I find TrainerRoad to be pretty good over winter for improvements but was thinking about giving Sufferfest a go for those days when I can't get out on the bike during the better weather but could easily fit in an hour on the turbo.

Hmm, some interesting comments.

With regards TR:

Their previous and current plans have "micro" periodisation in that every third to sixth week is a recovery week at roughly 50-60% of the work weeks. The frequency of the recovery week does depend on the particular plan and its duration. Out of the box there isn't "macro" periodisation. If you want to change the 3:1 work:recovery week ratio then there are ways to do that but currently not intuitive (Adaptive Training does let you insert ad hoc rest/illness/holiday weeks but it's currently a closed beta)

You can push pretty well any of their workouts outdoors so you don't need to stare at the blue power charts. Their CEO has said that they aren't going to put engineering effort into providing "entertainment" when there are lots of valid sources already available and you can thus choose your own.

Adaptive Training is/was something they've been working on behind the scenes for nearly three years, there's a bit of debate on their forums as to whether the Dylan Johnson video castigating their plans (actually just the high volume plans) brought the announcements forward or not. AT is still in closed beta BTW.

The gold standard is obviously a good coach but that will cost money. Personally I can't afford that plus I'm not into racing so one of the TR/Zwift/SF programmes is the next best thing - they aren't going to be as personalised as a coach but once you know your weaknesses and how you react to a given level of training it's not too hard to make adjustments. Let's say a coach costs £50/month, TR costs £12/month but I'm getting way more than 25% of the benefit of a coach, probably closer to 75%, I just have to put some work into the plan myself. If I want that extra 25% to be handed to me on a plate then I'll have to stump up the extra cash.

I've used Training Peaks with tailored plans where necessary. The plans can be sent to your Garmin as well as automatically linking into Zwift and will be available on the day you need them without adding loads of other workouts to cause confusion. Rest days where required are included in the plan. They aren't free in most cases but they do work well when training outdoors and indoors.

Are Garmin suggested workouts any better? I think they offer some training programs which should be tailored to your current condition.

I’ve tried to follow the zwift workouts before and the idea that the days are set and you cannot move them around is just stupid – but its a secondary process compared to the riding / racing in zwift.

That's not the case any more....
You get the whole week's workouts on Monday am, and have sunday to do them by. If you do a workout, it locks the rest for (something like) 10 hours...

I'm currently doing the 'build me up' plan, and actually quite enjoying it.
I've improved significantly with regards to ability to output and maintain power..whenther it's because I'm getting fitter (my Vo2 would suggest that's the case) or I'm getting better at actually thinking about my pedalling, breathing, and more aware of my ability...
Before starting the plan, I would have surprised myself if you'd told me I'd be able to be midway through an hour workout and be able to sit at 300w for 10 minutes feeling 'OK', and then to carry on some intervals after... But I managed it on week 5...
I think the progression is useful..

DrP

I had a coach and put his sessions into Zwift through the winter and it worked a treat. But now ive made these workouts i can use the same plan year after year. I know that means i will stagnate and not get any fitter, but im old now and not overly arsed. however, i know that what im doing is about right and has rests worked in.

Oh, and do a ramp test every month so i can update my spread sheet and see if im getting better or not.

I would really like feedback on if Garmin suggested workouts are better than those from the other platforms. Anyone tried them and can comment on how they perform?