after a selection of garmins and the various pains i just gave up
and went to a wahoo. been perfect from day 1.
To be fair, if you read the Wahoo users group on Google there's plenty of complaints, and even people saying they've had enough and they'll never buy a Wahoo again. (A category I fall into myself.)
Different people are going to hit different problems: I'll never encounter any issues with connecting a power meter or doing whatever Strava does, and some people aren't going to encounter issues syncing their RideWithGPS routes or fussing over certain aspects of navigation. So different devices will (since they all have their quirks) work better or worse for different people.
Personally I've always found Garmins have their foibles but it's been rare that they've completely let me down; and they do at least have a reasonable idea about navigation. What they do seem to get broadly right is hardware: they're pretty durable and reliable on that front (obviously some people's experiences will differ), it's the glitchy firmware and stuck-in-the-90s desktop applications that are the issues.
Two things have baffled me in the near-20 years I've been using them.
Firstly that the whole interface and usability of them has barely changed, despite there being some fairly obvious potential for improvement. The same for the mapping: the maps on the current devices look just like the first colour eTrexes, with pointless clutter and poor contrast.
The second is that, given Garmin's lack of change and their firmware glitches, it still took until, what, five years ago? before anyone really challenged them. Bonkers. (Hence I was quite excited by the Wahoos when they came out.)
Anyway, I'm liking the promised battery life of the 530/830, even if as usually seems to be the case the reality is only about two thirds of Garmin's fantasy figures. I'm quite tempted by the 530.
Sorry Greg your right 735xt.
Been happy with it and the Garmin connect apl and website.
I didn't realise they still bundled their desk top software these days.
Thought it was all cloud based.
I've had edge 205
Forerunner 305
Edge 500
Etrex 30
And a 735 xt.
Wife's had an edge 500 and a 735xt.
Issues we have had over the years was a loose connection on the charger on the 205
the rear lugs broke off on my 500 after years and years of being clipped on and off.
And the forerunner doesn't like windows 10 much and took a few work around a but then it is an antiquated bit of gear having been im service since 2004.
735 manage 10 under okay then? I've a couple of 12 hour plus plans for this year, I'd like one that'll last that long.
the 735 is plenty good for 12 hours - not much more unless you start switching things off - but there are options to turn things off , they also charge VERY fast so if you have a battery pack in a feed zone a quick top up goes along way.
I use an Ant + HR strap for any kind of effort
I finished 10 under with 15% left - and that was me charging it on the way the night before - if you were charging it up till the event you would probably get a bit longer.
It died at about 12.5hrs on the Cairngorm loop in september - then i moved to the edge 500 after that for the next 12 hours.
With a perfect battery and a chest hr sensor in Ultra track mode the 735 should manage 20hrs + (They say 24hrs).
From past experience with an old Polar monitor the last couple of hours data on 20+ hr races don’t tell you much more than your complete lack of power and coordination tell you and everyone else, but I suppose its nice to have a record.
We have a lot of Garmin devices in the household as my other half is into triathlons. None of them miss a beat although they don't really use any software other than that built into devices.
Everything is synched and uploaded to other apps, all of which works very well.
Go-Pro on the other hand, complete and utter piece of tripe. Bought a Hero 7 black and the video quality is stunning. They have nailed it with hypersmooth - but the software in the camera is shocking. Turns itself off, stops responding after recording, locks up. Basically un-usable so got sent back which is a real shame as the quality when in use is superb.
ultratrac seemed ok for running - its essentially switching between treadmill and run outdoor settings but i found it to be pretty bad at mtb - not sure if its the bouncing , the variance in speed or what but it just got all confused.
all my long distance stuff has been on a bike.
Its a bit of a lottery I think.
I've had a Forerunner something or other for years (probably about 8 years). Its been used a lot and works well. I've not updated the firmware for years which I think has helped to keep it working.....
I've had a 810 and a 520. Had the 810 for years, but only because at the time there was no viable alternative. Most buggy piece of kit I have ever had. It couldn't cope with being connected to my phone and also route following, it would just power itself off. Would be fine if I wasn't following a route. Each time there was a firmware upgrade I'd get some other new bug that would be fixed by a subsequent upgrade (or a new garmin version being released).
I thought it was just my device and decided to get the 520, I'd then get rides that were a direct straightline and at approx. 50mph. Had the device for less than a month before I gave up on Garmin. (I have an eTrex that has been impeccable though)
I then bought a Lezyne Micro Super Enhanced GPS, for non mapping rides this was good, worked everytime, but mapping wasn't that intuitive and the out front mount snapped getting the device off.
My Wahoo Bolt has not given me any problems in over a year. But the mapping isn't anywhere near as good as the Garmin 810 when it stayed powered on. I've gotten to the point where I don't use it for mapping, but it could be me being a luddite - from memory it didn't redirect back to a route if you miss a turn. On road that's not too much of an issue, but off-road it can be confusing.
I'm coming to the conclusion that I'm fortunate my Edge 800 works smoothly, no glitches. Also with all these connected things.. if I'm at a point where its all working, leave it alone. Updates usually screw it up and then it needs settling again.
My Garmin has always been faulty. Always shown 100% battery, even when been on for 10hrs.
Yesterday’s ride I was following a course pre loaded on the device. Got home, did upload and my ride and course had vanished from the device!
I have a TomTom for running and also bought a layzene that were £50 and they have both been faultless, more accurate and easier to use compared to Garmin.
Another Wahoo convert here, the best thing is that it just works simply, plot a route in Komoot or RidewithGPS and there it is in Wahoo app.
Got the email from Charlie for the Gravel Dash with the .gpx, just press and hold on iphone on the email attachment and it says "send to Wahoo" and it's there on app and on the headunit.
It just works seamlessly, the navigation isn't as brilliant as on a top end Garmin, but it will still be navigating after 12 hours, it won't have switched itself off, won't of lost the plot because it rained nor decided i am in a different country.
I had 6 different Garmin over the years and every one was glitchy in some way and two just stopped working
I'm wondering if part of the problem is the vast array of navigation software - Komoot, RWGPS, GPSies, Strava, mapmyride, Memory Map...
When you export a .gpx or .tcx file, the theory is that it should all be the same but differnet platforms and slightly different settings seem to give wildly varying results - sometimes it'll decide that you MUST go on this trail or bridleway even though everything is set to "ROAD" but then you find a setting buried in the GPS itself that says "re-route to avod highways" or "TOURING" or some other bollocks and the unit has decided to overwrite the perfectly good file you've uploaded to it.
You get that the other way round as well and the problem with Garmin is that it is NEVER a consistent error - my Edge Touring has done numerous re-routes of it's own volition but never in a manner where I know that it's Setting X or Option Y that's to blame.
And then if you don't re-route as per it's instructions, the idea of just navigating to the next point along is clearly too much for the unit to cope with and it'll either insist on a U-turn or just crash.
Before my 510 gave up the ghost a weird problem started earlier last year - when connected to the computer to upload rides to Garmin Connect which I've then got synched with Strava I'd get a "Failed to sync" message. I'd assumed it was the Connect => Strava connection as by coincidence it started with my first ride after GDPR came in to force so I thought it had something to do with that. I just manually copied the ride to my computer and uploaded it to Strava as a workaround.
I so rarely open Garmin Connect (says a lot) that it was only when I happened to open it that I noticed that best part of a year's worth of rides were "missing" so the 510 => computer comms was borked. That led down the rabbit hole of Garmin support - don't go there!
but then you find a setting buried in the GPS itself
That's my consistent issue with Garmin software. Forget hardware and compatibility issues and flaky uploads, they just seem incapable of constructing a user interface where things are where you'd expect them to be.
Years ago I was on a Garmin event where they were demoing their latest outdoor navigation unit. I showed one of the Garmin guys there, the procedure for re-setting the trip meter on the unit. The intuitive solution would have been a button on the trip meter pages saying like 'reset', instead you had to go back to the home menu, then scroll through sub-menus until you reached a 'reset' menu, which you then had to access and select the tripmeter option and then reset it before going back to the tripmeter page.
Not a problem said the Garmin guys. The great thing is our software can be revised really quickly. A year later it was still exactly the same.
It just always seems to me to be unnecessarily fiddly and non rational to use. It's as if no-one ever considers usability to be an important part of the software. I realise there's an element of subjectivity about this and maybe my head and Garmin's head work in very different ways, but using an electronic device shouldn't be an endless battle against the operating system.
Stuff should mostly just work. You shouldn't need to download the manual repeatedly - hello Garmin Fenix - just to work out how the thing works again and again.
And then if you don’t re-route as per it’s instructions, the idea of just navigating to the next point along is clearly too much for the unit to cope with and it’ll either insist on a U-turn or just crash.
I do that 🙁
Hilarious that I can't even figure out how to post on the Garmin Support Forum to try and seek some way of resolving this problem. Unbelievable.
Edge Touring
Edge 200 (now sold)
Edge 130
Touring gets used infrequently when i need navigation. Anything other than 'follow line superimposed on map' is hopeless IME. As is the postcode lookup (took me a street 2 miles from where i wanted to go last time I used it). Unit defaults to factory settings every so often.
Edge 130. decision to prioritise size over battery life was a poor one. Barometric altitude data is useless unless you manually calibrate it every ride. Far worse in real world than taking gps data (why not just take a gps reading when switched on and then take baro from there?)
Garmin *Connect* actually seems fairly reliable - the 130 uploads via my phone, connect sends to Strava. Connect does also seem to fairly reliably send a 130 recorded track to the Touring.
Trip reset on my Oregon takes 3 clicks.
One to bring up details of the current track.
One to save it or delete it.
And one to confirm reset. I could remove this 3rd one if I was always sure it was what I wanted.
Not a problem said the Garmin guys. The great thing is our software can be revised really quickly. A year later it was still exactly the same.
Yeah, their usability mostly sucks, and it's barely changed in 20 years. Mind you, I've had similar with Wahoo… "yeah, great idea, we'll add that to our list", then they bin it.
The whole market sector always seems bizarrely complacent when it comes to firmware.
Had to laugh/cry at Wahoo's big build up to a new product at Sea Otter recently. Alongside all their teaser publicity, lots of people had picked up the FCC filing of an "Elemnt Roam" device. "Ooh," I thought, wondering whether for once I could stop being cynical about them, "maybe—maybe—they're releasing a touring/navigation oriented device…" What did we get? A coloured casing for the Bolt. Pass the champagne.
6 year old 800 here. All I want is it to show map, course line and a little arrow showing where I am. Does that perfectly and seemingly easier than comparible wahoo units. Battery life is waining though. Down to about 10 hours. Garmin Dakota as back up device.
Has anyone used the new Sigma Rox 12 Sport?
A friend has just been given one (cos she's a really good ultra endurance rider) and all the reviews (inc DCRainmaker) say it's fantastic, a million miles better than any of the old clunky Sigma stuff, well up there with Garmin etc.
But then said friend, who is not the greatest with techology it has to be said, phoned me yesterday and we spent 40 minutes on the phone while she tried to get this Sigma to connect and upload a route. Managed it eventually but she has vast experience with long distance route stuff and she was just saying "what is wrong with plug-n-play?!" Just want to plug device in, copy .gpx across. But no, it requires an account with Sigma Data Centre (the Sigma equivalent of Garmin Connect) and then syncing with my Strava and then.....
However the reviews of the actual device look good. I'm tempted.
I've contemplated it now that it can be had for a reasonable price, but from reading around it does seem to be a bit clunky to get routes onto it. Maybe I've got high expectations but we ought to be at the stage where I can get my RWGPS routes onto a device without having to use a desktop/laptop to do it. With Garmin I can do that through a (slightly buggy) third party Connect IQ app, and with Wahoo I can do it via wifi but not via my phone (because the app goes batshit crazy and Wahoo don't seem willing or able to fix it). I'm not sure anything else supports that.
I'm also pretty wary of touchscreens. The 800/Touring was sort of ok, being resistive (ie it was kinda crap, but reliable and insensitive to weather), but a capacitive screen is easy to get badly wrong (as many 820 users apparently know quite well).
I've been incredibly impressed by the touchscreen on my Explore, though. Works faultlessly in rain and with thick gloves (haven't tried my super-toasty lobsters, to be fair), and it's pretty responsive.
A friend has just been given one (cos she’s a really good ultra endurance rider) and all the reviews (inc DCRainmaker) say it’s fantastic
I didn't like the bit in the DCRainmaker review where he questions its weather-proofing.
I'm constantly amazed at how the most basic stuff gets screwed up. The latest Satmap 20 unit, for example, is kind of brilliant at what it does mostly despite being the size of a house-brick, has amazing map reproduction and both buttons and a touchscreen, but... features a micro USB port cover that simply falls off the unit. It comes with a spare and you can buy further replacements in packs of five, but honestly, if I'd just spent 450 quid or more on a GPS unit, I think it would be reasonable to expect the USB port cover to stay securely attached.
Wife has an Edge 130, i have an 820.
The 820 touchscreen and overall response is frustratingly slow. I got the 820 because of the map routing capabilities...well, it takes 5-10 minutes for even the simplest directions. by then i pulled my phone, checked the directions and figured where i need to go.
The 130 on the other hand, is fast, simple, and very easy to use.
But yes, i don't know what they think. the software is complete crap.
Alongside all their teaser publicity, lots of people had picked up the FCC filing of an “Elemnt Roam” device. “Ooh,” I thought, wondering whether for once I could stop being cynical about them, “maybe—maybe—they’re releasing a touring/navigation oriented device…” What did we get? A coloured casing for the Bolt. Pass the champagne.
Be a wee bit more patient or do a spot more googling. 😉
I mean, I've seen the rumours/mockups/whatever of the Roam device. It looks like the existing devices but with a colour screen (which might aid clarity, or might not perform well in sunlight). I have serious doubts about their keenness to do a better job of navigation, though. But I'd be happy to be proven wrong.
Oops. I just ordered a 530. If the battery life is close to the quoted figures then, assuming no major firmware bogeys, it's a winner.
But no, it requires an account with Sigma Data Centre (the Sigma equivalent of Garmin Connect) and then syncing with my Strava and then...
Remember, the most important thing is that they get your data...This is true of all of them, Sigma, Strava, Garmin Wahoo...
Bought a Vivoactive 3 yesterday, to replace my bombproof Vivoactive HR, considered a few other of their offerings, but I do like a touch screen, and don't like big buttons on a watch.
Lots of new features (new to me anyway!) to like.
Oops. I just ordered a 530. If the battery life is close to the quoted figures then, assuming no major firmware bogeys, it’s a winner.
I look forward to the review / update!
If the battery life is close to the quoted figures
assuming no major firmware bogeys
Some pretty bold assumptions given the history, I hope you aren't disappointed. I'm tempted to go for the 530 for the extra processor speed and buttons instead of touch screen over my current 820
If it’s nowhere near the quoted times then to my mind it’s fair enough to send it back.
The longest ride I’d do in a single day (and I’m flattering myself here because since having a second small person this pretty much hasn’t happened) would be about 14 hours, so that’s my threshold for being happy enough. The Bolt would just about manage that; the Explore might scrape it in battery saver mode (which I actually kind of like, other than that it limits the screen brightness to 50%, which hampers it badly on sunny days and is a bit silly because the main feature of battery saver mode is that the screen is almost always off anyway).
My ballpark is normally about 70% of Garmin’s quoted battery life, so in theory the 530 should meet that with the screen always on and double it in saver mode.
Supposedly Garmin have changed the way they quote battery life; not sure whether it’s more or less flattering now, but I’m sure they must have been quoting best case before, so we’ll see.
I look forward to the review / update!
I still haven’t Had My Reckon about the Explore, so I’ll probably write some guff about that and the 530 together.
Because cycling is a tiny part of their global market – they’re big in marine and aviation so that’s where the money goes.
The UX isn’t actually any better in those areas, but the competition is worse (if you think Garmin is clunky, try using Lowrance for the first time with no manual). I wonder if Garmin really make more money in Marine still?
Anyway I’m convinced it’s because 1. The software design is based around the hardware not the user. 2. The hardware engineers are leading the design - to them it’s obvious how stuff should work because they know how the hardware works. 3. They are trying to do too much. Probably driven by a CEO or Marketing Manager telling the designers he wants to see features to compete with fit bit and strava rather than seeing How to leverage those services...
Whilst we are having a collective moan: I have an Edge Touring, which is a great little device and does a huge amount for the money, except for a few glaring problems.
1) You can have it route you to a particular point or circular set of waypoints, like a car GPS, which is brilliant - but the routes it chooses can be utterly batshit mental, and you've got little control over it. Ok so this is quite a hard problem to solve, but still. I don't use this a lot, and if I do I don't follow it blindly. It's obsessed with cycle routes and will take you miles out of your way to take in short bits of cycle path. There are three routing profiles that allow you to in theory change its preferences, but there's no documentation as to what they actually do, and they all seem insane.
2) The most annoying thing is that when you upload your own route, sometimes if you get poor GPS signal it inserts a turn point 6000km away into your route. The next turn prompt then becomes something like 'head east for 6000km' followed by the rest of your prompts as you'd expect. This means that you never get the next real turn prompt. Not such a problem in the daytime because you keep looking at the thing and can follow the purple line. But at night, the device is dark until you get to a turn point, so you end up missing your turnings. This probably cost me 45 mins on my Ridgeway Double ride. It seems much better if you use something like bikehike to create routes as you get far more course points than if you click manually with say Tracklogs, but you aren't always in control of how the routes are created. You can also prevent the getting lost part by leaving the backlight on all the time but this isn't ideal if you are trying to preserve battery.
3) They seem to have introduced a bug where the backlight changes brightness to minimum. This can be solved by then resetting the brightness value, but it's annoying. A solution is again to leave it on all the time, which is ok for normal rides. Reduces battery life to about 6-7 hours.
Well, you can thank me for buying that 530 last night because lo and behold here comes the Roam 😀
https://www.dcrainmaker.com/2019/05/wahoo-element-roam-cycling-gps-in-depth-review.html
It's not fully clear what approach they're taking with TBT navigation; sounds like RWGPS is supported but Strava isn't yet, which seems kinda odd since the mapping data is on the device to enable TBT and if they were using cue points from the original route it wouldn't be TBT as we know it.
I like their careful use of colour, though. Much better than Garmin's horrible clutterfest.
I do like the idea of Wahoo's RWGPS integration, but in practice for me the reality hasn't been ideal (ie it's tried to set fire to my phone).
Battery life isn't up to the 530, if Garmin's figures are to be believed (I have more faith in Wahoo's), but it's good enough.
Looks very nice in theory. I just wonder whether I can bear to try another Wahoo.
Ah, good old Garmin. I've owned various products over the years. My current devices are hit and miss. All issues are bluetooth related. My new 520 Plus doesn't connect to my phone every other ride. It needs unpaired/paired. My Forerunner 230 was the same for months, but seems to have settled recently. Both devices are up to date with the latest firmware.
@molgrips My Edge Touring was truly awful for those reasons. Buried far in the menus is the option to switch off the routing functions, but then they would randomly switch on again. Usually on a long ride where there was precious little time to ride back to get on course and then fiddle with the menus.
As Poly says - suspect very much a hardware company, driven by marketing "features" with no real focus on User based design. That said my Dakota and 800 work fine if kept simple.
My 920XT has been fine for around6 years now, I've only had two issues, one where a ride got corrupted and needed the upload file fixing, the other where it just died and lost my data.
I do find the app on my phone to be hit and miss, sometimes it'll connect and sometime I have to turn the phones bluetooth off and on to get it to pick it up. I did originally set up the wifi auto upload but it never worked...
One thing I found with changing settings on Garmin Edge devices was that for them to be permanent you have to make the changes, shut the unit down then restart it before you let it synchronise with Garmin Connect otherwise the settings on the server take precedence and helpfully changes them back for you but doesn't tell you that it's done so - doh!
Bit of a thread bump - the friend with the Sigma Rox 12 that I mentioned a page or so back. She was up this weekend and we were trying out various settings and trying to upload routes. Infuriating. Not remotely intuitive in spite of a couple of reviews saying helpful things like "whack open your Strava and bosh the route across".
Clearly written by someone who's not actually tested it - at a guess one of those magazines that seen a press release and just regurgitated the thing in more "matey" language.
Unlike a Garmin, the computer won't recognise it as an external drive to just shove files into, you HAVE to talk to it via the Sigma Data Centre. And finding the right buttons in all of that and on the unit means importing the file from Strava (or RWGPS, Komoot etc) into Sigma Data Centre where it then allows you to upload it to the unit. Eventually. But it'll only do it when the unit is plugged in, not via wifi, even though the thing will download your ride straight to Strava via wifi afterwards. Or if there is a way of sending the route over wifi, we certainly couldn't find it.
Shame because the unit itself is nice, the mapping is excellent and very detailed, it responds rapidly when zooming or scrolling. The nav part has various pre-built modes (MTB, road, tour, commute etc) and you can add others and the good part is that it's very customisable, it'll allow you to set MTB to avoid roads and prefer trails, while road can be set the opposite and Commute can be told to prefer cycle lanes while avoiding major roads so that bit was excellent. But the method of importing routes is patchy at best. Certainly not intuitive.
And reviews that read "just whack open your Strava" - what the hell is wrong with a nice simple list of instructions?! Get to this screen. Press that button.
Garmin seems to be divisive on this.
Agree, cycling is probably their smallest market and suffers for it. People buy it and recommend it, so it will never change. The cycling stuff always seems like they did a bit of research for Road and then just reboxed it for mountain.
Similar experience to many on here with discontinued support, flaky firmware, rubbish UX and all the rest.
Personally, if live Strava stages and the need to manually drag files off via a computer of some sort doesn’t bother you, I’d avoid their cycling stuff and look at the units aimed at walking. They’re a million times more useful.
It’s such a shame as the actual HW is possibly the best out there, just ruined by poor firmware/client software and a parent company that doesn’t give a crap about user support as they know they’ll still sell as many whatever they do.
I just bought an 820, have an 810 that has been pretty solid really. Got it out the box, plugged in and updated maps. That was it, couldn’t get it to restart at all, would turn on , boot through to main screen then after 5-1 seconds die. Sent back.
I’m idly on the lookout for an 810 if you happen to be selling 🙂
I've been running a Garmin 520 for 3 years now (average 3 times per week) and it's never once let me down nor done anything i haven't asked it to.... the display displays what it should, it uploads 1st time every time, the maps work as they should....
battery life could be better, but i turn the screen brightness right down and back light off for longer rides and it lasts a good 6 hours whilst guiding, longer if it's just showing speed/time/distance/temp/etc/etc/etc...
