[Closed] Why are there no serious Garmin alternatives?

Cos it's hard.

Hammerhead Karoo might be alternative but only pre production tests so far, real world opinions should be appearing soon.

@scotroutes so are lots of things! Can you think of any other area of consumer goods where there is no competition?

@akira, thanks for that. Just signed up to their mailing list.

They have an established market far outside cycling. Hence there is an enormous amount of cross-over technology, research and development. I doubt cycle computers are a serious profit item for them.

Bryton, Mio, Lezyne, Polar and Cateye make bike GPS systems.

I think the issue is that the software development is quite expensive compared to the number of units they sell, so whilst many can make the hardware, the interface always lets them down.

I have troubles with my garmin 810 too (random switching off, unreliable phone connection/upload).

I think next time I'm just going to use a simple GPS with breadcrumb type trail (to save digging a phone out of my pocket every junction), and just use a phone for more detailed mapping when necessary.

Wahoo? My garmin died and to be honest, i can't be bothered replacing it. I just slip my phone in my pocket to record the ride.

Garmin were doing GPS units such as marine and military before they got into cycling, I used a Forerunner 301 before I got a cycling specific unit for example. Wikipedia states the company was founded in 1989 so had units available when Strava started (2009) so that extended their influence.

As to competitors - Wahoo? I only know of one person with an Elemnt, superficially it looks similar to a Garmin 520

Smartphones get vast amounts of R&D thrown at them as they're sold in massive numbers. Cycling is fairly niche and the market just gets smaller and smaller as you go up the range for these devices. Lots of people are happy to log rides using their phone or a basic GPS device. A smaller number are happy with something you can chuck a GPX on to follow. An even smaller number want all the advanced mapping, sensors, etc stuff.

Garmin do car/truck satnavs, marine and aviation stuff, and offerings for just about any sport that could use GPS. Thus they can spread a lot of the development cost around between these. It's also why the cycling ones can be a bit compromised as they're minimising what needs to be made specially for it.

Everyone wants a tiny waterproof unit with super accurate GPS, a huge battery, a screen that's clear in all kinds of lighting conditions, and a fast processor to make it super responsive when dealing with huge chunks of mapping data. And they want to pay next to nothing for it.

I think next time I'm just going to use a simple GPS with breadcrumb type trail

And they want to pay next to nothing for it.

not true. people pay for Garmins and they're not cheap.
I know a few people who have Wahoos and are more than happy ex-Garmin customers.

And they want to pay next to nothing for it.

But there's still no real alternative, so we keep feeding their profits for mediocre (they have a lot of positives to balance the negatives) devices.

I get the notion of using a phone (not least because that's what I do at the moment) and realise that yes, there are plenty of competitors at the lower end.

The single feature I really like the look of on the Edge 1030 is the ability to just turn it on anywhere and tell it to take me for a ride along the most popular local trails.

I know all of the information is available out there somewhere on the web, but it's generally a complete pain in the arse to pull it all together into a GPX file, and that assumes you know you're going to be riding in the first place!

As an example, if I'm going to a meeting somewhere I know has decent riding nearby, I might often chuck my bike in the car and go for a ride on the way home. The Edge 1030 would potentially let me take the bike to any meeting and do that, even if I didn't know the terrain at all.

I just can't bring myself to spend with Garmin again!!!!

The Wahoo Elemnt isn't an alternative to a Garmin Edge. The battery life, rrp and reliability will seem very alien to a Garmin user. 😉

Seriously, the Elemnt is ace and set up etc through your phone is a breeze. For mtb riding the basic maps are maybe a bit too basic but you'll get there.

No regrets switching over from me.

The Edge series does seem to be particularly flakey.

My Oregon just works.

I follow the Trans- Continental FB page and interestingly riders most of the riders there were singing the praises of the Wahoo Elemnt over Garmin as a more reliable GPS for daily use.

I have 510 and touch wood it's been good but do wish Garmin could get it together to be reliable, have good battery life and good mapping, seems you can only pick two

I bought my Oregon for geocaching and walking, had it before I even got into biking. I only use it for routes or recording a long ride, not for 'training'

I also follow the transcontinental and noticed the same. (you may have seen my post asking about them)

The downfalls of the Lezyne I bought as a "cheap" back up to my seemingly dying 510 I've found so far are:

Routes have to be loaded through phone, and only one at a time.
- No use when your battery runs out
- No use at the start of most MTB rides in Scotland
- No use at the start of a fair whack of road rides in Scotland
-- because there's never a data signal or WiFi when you need one

Following a route with cues you'd better not miss a waypoint otherwise you're just going to be told how far away the start is
- so it doesn't deal with that like a Garmin does

User Interface is a bit clumsy
The Start button is also the down button when you're in a menu, and the top left and top right scroll through screens.
- I've also found this extra clumsy when working left handed. (Where as the button based interface on my Fenix watch works great left handed)

There is only 1 zoom level when following the breadcrumb trail, which thankfully you can do even when the cue's are trying to tell you to go back to the start.

Obviously it doesn't do the trail finding; that sounds like something someone needs to write as a killer app first, or an extension to trail forks?

also as I've been using it with the 510 at the same time I noticed if the Lezyne picked up my HRM before the 510 then the 510 wouldn't connect to the HRM, but if the 510 went first then both would connect to it.

I'm also suspect of the elevation, as it got 1500 on an Audax last weekend while the Garmin got 2700; the official was just short of 2400m (no AAA points)

I've got an Elemnt Bolt on my wish list

and of course I've gone way off topic 😳

I think the level of competition for Garmin depends on what you're trying to do with it. If you're fitness focused and want to track ride stats, do Strava, that sort of stuff, then there's a ton of competition out there and some of it (Wahoo being the obvious example) looks like it's beating Garmin for this type of use.

If you want navigation, things are different. I had high hopes for Wahoo but in the end I was disappointed and reluctantly went back to Garmin.

https://mashing53.cyclyc.com/wahoo-navigation-nailed-or-failed/

The "it's hard" excuse doesn't wash. Garmin haven't really learned anything over the last 10-15 years, they've just added a few bells and whistles (some, like touchscreens, being rather questionable) and tried to lock everyone into Garmin Connect. It's not the difficulty of the engineering (software or hardware) that's the issue, it's Garmin's apparent attitude to its customers and its reluctance to evolve with a more open market and a more connected ecosystem.

To be honest, I'd be happy if Garmin simply put a bigger battery in (and stopped pulling unrealistic battery life estimates out of their arse), used a high-contrast screen, and allowed me to get routes on there wirelessly from a phone.

To be honest, I'd be happy if Garmin simply put a bigger battery in

Edge 1030?

and allowed me to get routes on there wirelessly from a phone.

Thought you could now? You can definitely get Strava routes onto a Garmin from your phone (edge 520 upwards anyway)

edit: tried this? https://apps.garmin.com/en-US/apps/b7efc9ca-5446-4e1c-bc53-474e97f376ac#0

I've got an 800, I lost it a few weeks ago (dunno where, could be at SSUK, could be in the house somewhere). TBH I don't bother looking for it because it was truly rubbish.

Screen isn't bright enough to see in sunlight even when not wearing sunglasses.
Screen doesn't have the resolution to make the (bloody expensive) OS maps useable.
Menu's are completely unintuitive (there's probably 3 different ways to get a route up to follow, none are anything obvious).
Garmin connect is horrible for route planning.
The sat-nav function is hopeless, especially if you miss a turn it won't recalculate just send you back in a loop to where you went wrong, I once rode 20miles in a loop after I rode past a road closed sign only for it to bring me back to it! It also has a magnetic attraction to Reading ring-road, it's a cycling route finder FFS, surely it can at least avoid roads where cyclings prohibited?

Ride logging - STRAVA does that for free
Following a pre-made route - pay for STRAVA premium, even as a subscription it's cheaper than a garmin unless you can make a garmin last 6+ years (without breaking it or the battery life diminishing).
Maps - OSM has enough detail to navigate, and carry a paper OS map for backup.
Worried about breaking your phone, buy a tougher case, or buy a <£100 waterproof budget android phone off ebay.

Garmin should have given up on hardware and just released an App, they could have been STRAVA years before with their market position (vs the other strava-esque apps).

Edge 1030?

*googles*

Jesus, it's £500! I think I'll put up with my £100 Touring plus £10 USB battery.

Thought you could now?

I'm probably out of touch. I thought you could only do it via Garmin Connect.

edit: tried this?

Nope, looks quite cute. Thanks. Looking at the compatible devices, the 520 and the Explore 820 edge into broadly-affordable territory. (The 520 has limited storage space which is crap for maps though, right? And the 820 is generally considered rather unreliable?)

The 520 has limited storage space which is crap for maps though, right? And the 820 is generally considered rather unreliable?

I believe that you are correct with both of those statements sadly (although I don't have 1st hand experience of the latter)

Giant Neostrack. £150 RRP, 30hour battery life (tested soon on Relentless). No touch screen, breadcrumb navigation, buttons are "clunky", have to log on phone to link to Bluetooth to download rides. No downsides yet.

Sounds/looks good (especially the price and the battery life) but the lack of mapping is a shame.

the wahoo elemnt just works. Never had any issues at all with it.

It may not be touch screen or full colour mapping, but is that something you really need? Surely it's worth not having if you can have something that does work...

Don't see the need for full colour mapping if you're following a predefined route.

The weakness of breadcrumb trails was demonstrated to me during the audax at a couple of junctions where roads slowly diverged racked up an extra couple of km through wrong slots, although at the Lezyne zoom level it was the braking time rather than the noticing time that was longest.

Can see it being a bigger problem on trails though or worse a big open rideable plateau.

Personally I can't think of anything worse...a bike computer making recommendations on routes? Part of appeal is to get away from it all so this permanent (or near permanent) connection sounds like witchcraft and voodoo all in 1.

Yer mental suggesting a box on yer bars can do all that!

My Wahoo Elemnt Bolt is amazing value for money compared to the equivalent Garmin.

Not sure I even understand the question.

Personally I can't think of anything worse...a bike computer making recommendations on routes? Part of appeal is to get away from it all so this permanent (or near permanent) connection sounds like witchcraft and voodoo all in 1.

When doing a long ride and you want to know how many bloody hills you still have to go
When you are leading a group and would rather not take them down dead-ends, long detours or into peat bogs
Not having to constantly check the map when riding somewhere unfamiliar

I know that not everyone wants to use one, but for me at least, my Edge 1000 was a revelation and I wouldn't be without it now for the above reasons and many others too.

And, despite the comments here, I've not had too many problems with mine and recent firmware updates have been pretty stable for me. Battery life is ok too.

the wahoo elemnt just works. Never had any issues at all with it.

My Wahoo Elemnt Bolt is amazing value for money compared to the equivalent Garmin.

Not sure I even understand the question.

Bez posted a link up ^^^ to a long review he wrote and has gone back to a Garmin so clearly don't work for everyone.

I'm in the same boat - got an Edge 500, which I refuse to replace until there is a viable alternative to Garmin.

The Wahoo Element definitely looks like it's getting close. There seem to be a few from Bryton, but they don't seem to be marketed or get much coverage in the UK.

A mate of mine had a Mio a few years ago & sent it back. Apparently it was cak.

When doing a long ride and you want to know how many bloody hills you still have to go

Rule #5 or Toughen up princess 😆

When you are leading a group and would rather not take them down dead-ends, long detours or into peat bogs

PPPPP 😉

Not having to constantly check the map when riding somewhere unfamiliar

And how exactly does a map on a screen differ from a paper map in this respect? The paper map gives you a picture of where you are in the landscape (unless you are right on the edge of it) which you can only partly get by scrolling around the screen map. What happens if there's a blockage on your route that requires a detour and there's a couple of alternatives and you need to choose the best one? Pretty easy with a paper map as all the info's there.

Don't get me wrong, I have two GPS units (one for road, one for off-road) but if I'm somewhere I don't know particularly well I'll have the relevant maps in my pack.

the wahoo elemnt just works. Never had any issues at all with it.
My Wahoo Elemnt Bolt is amazing value for money compared to the equivalent Garmin.
Not sure I even understand the question.

Bez posted a link up ^^^ to a long review he wrote and has gone back to a Garmin so clearly don't work for everyone.

To be fair to Wahoo, Bez's complaint was over navigation. Nothing else. (as an aside, Bez's Wahoo is also not the Elemnt, but the Elemnt Bolt. Which is quite a lot smaller. So shows less detail...)

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I've never noticed the battery drain on my phone either. I know it's not conclusive proof that there is none, but neither is his blog that there is an issue.

The loss of detail is due to the firmware choosing to display very little beyond a certain level of zoom, not the physical screen size, but I'd be interested to know if the firmware behaves differently on the larger version (I strongly suspect it doesn't, but I'd be happy to be corrected).

Don't know to be honest!The [url= https://groups.google.com/forum/#!searchin/wahoo-elemnt-users/map$20resolution%7Csort:relevance/wahoo-elemnt-users/HsjMr2AkzNM/cPMpbM7KFgAJ ]Google[/url] group implies it's the same resolution, but without trying both, who knows?

Thanks for all the comments everyone!

As a result of a comment here and elsewhere, I've just discovered how easy it is to create routes on Strava based off the heatmap and then follow them on my phone.

It would be perfect if I could tell it to turn off road segments and only show MTB trails, but even so, I was able to create a 25 mile circular route which is 90% off road in under 10 minutes, so for now, that gives me pretty much everything I was after! 😀

I don’t rate the Edge Touring for navigation. Stop for lunch. On restart asked if I want to save or discard data then do I want to navigate to the start of the route. WTF. No I want to restart the timer and continue on my preplanned route. How hard can it be to get that right? A fairly basic requirement for an item aimed squarely at the leisure market. Rubbish software and USB1 for map updates. Really? Nearly 4 hours every time I need to run a map update on 150mb cable connection! The whole setup is not fit for purpose.

What about a satmap?

After the lunch stop, don’t you just press ‘go’? And it continues as it was before the stop?

Yes, ‘save’ and ‘discard’ are the two options shown, so it’s a little unintuitive, but no different than any time you press stop for whatever reason

I own a Dakota 20 and an Edge Touring.

Up until the old Communicator got broken (ie, the security vulnerability in IE it exploited was patched and Garmin CBA writing new software) the Dakota was completely all I needed. Now, it’s still a much better navigation tool for proper off road use, but can be a bit of a pain to get Strava friendly data from - especially if you rode several days since you last extracted figures. The AA batteries are an awesome feature. The bar mount is crap.

The Edge: easy Strava, rubbish navigation, unreliable.

I’m very interested in the Wahoo units, unfortunately I don’t see them as usable for OS map reading until there’s a colour screen...

I have an Edge 510 and I use it daily. It's not terrible and I almost feel a bit ungrateful saying this but there are enough annoyances that I'll be looking elsewhere when it comes to replacing it.

The fact that Bluetooth pairing fails completely for weeks after almost every update (for either the Edge or my phone) is completely unacceptable.
Garmin connect is a poor platform that I have no interest in but I'm forced to use. At least it now auto-syncs to Strava.
The battery life is linear from 100% down to 50%, then the device just turns off somewhere between 50% and 45%.
The movement detected notifications don't work properly and stay on the screen obscuring the data.
I'm sure the Garmin drains my phone battery, but I can't prove this.
I could list a few other minor annoyances but you get the idea.

I quite like my Edge Touring for navigation but I don’t usually use the turn by turn on routes I’ve created myself. I just leave it on the map screen and effectively follow the blue line. I also use Talkytoaster maps which seem much better than Gaemin’s offerings.
I have used the inbuilt route finder a fair bit too & apart from the odd bit of trouble with major A roads or muddy farm tracks it has been surprisingly successful. Used it loads in Brittany to find set distance loops & rarely any issues.
I use a Lezyne Macro for any stuff I don’t need navigation on. I originally bought the Garmin Touring as the nav side of the Lezyne was so bad but given the umpteen firmware updates which have improved pretty much everything else about it to better than Garmin levels it may now be useable, lack of map display notwithstanding.

Edge Touring, despite it’s foibles (mine did another reset to factory defaults for no reason a few days back) just about works. Just had two great rides in France by searching for Strava segments, looking at the ride the leaderboard riders had done, creating a route from it and loading to the Edge.

Turned off “turn by turn”, turned off “off course warnings” and just followed the line

Screen is too small, resolutions not great, hard to see in bright light but enough detail on the included Garmin maps to tell when the track had turned off the fire road and work out near enough where the right point to find the gap in the trees.