Building means mainly marking out 7 to 10k of track with tape and arrows, done well it's a job. Usually working a bit on tech features to make them safeish/usable.
There are loads of other issues around venues like access, safety, water, toilets, parking. All of these logistical bits don't always meet up with great trails for racing, fields do. If you want to develop a venue it all needs to work.
I was about to mention the Gorrick, but I think it maybe ilustrates a different point. In the NE there was very little XC racing, whereas in the SE there's loads. Conversely there was DH racing in the NE.
I think that's down to poulation density as much as topography, I don't think people will travel to race XC beacuse if there's no race then they can just go ride with mates to see who's quickest. With DH you need the race infrastructure to see who's quickest as it's not always obvious.
People will therefore travel from a larger area to race DH at Hamsterley, but I don't think they'd show upto an XC race there. Whereas in the SE there's still Aston Hill etc, but XC racing is far more popular than DH because there's local events so you can turn up to a locla one and race.
If you include all the non-racers (classifying XC as anyone on a bike <5" travel, enduro as 5-7", DH as anything more), then XC is very popular, it's just not reflected in the races [b]coverage[/b], there's still more pople racing at their local Gorrick race than at a national Enduro race, whatever the MBUK coverage shows.
The Midlands XC Series has been pretty successful over the past couple of years.
There are some great videos which give you a flavour of the events:
I think the problem with XC is money, or lack of potential reward. Any teenager showing XC potential can't help but see what they could earn on the track or the road. British Cycling is complicit with this as funding is biased towards those disciplines where there is a decent Olympic medal prospect
Annie Last is in the squad for the road Worlds I think so you might be on to something. Not that she's following the cash necessarily, but the road scene maybe has more of a framework to pick them up, get them over training year round in Europe etc.
Njee, some nice regional differences making us both out to be liars there I think!
Njee, some nice regional differences making us both out to be liars there I think!
Not the term I'd use, neither of us are lying, just different experiences!
Missed off my smilie after "liars", it's funny, it just highlights how complex the whole argument is.
And quite possibly self fulfilling. I'm stood around in lycra on a 19lb carbon hardtail, folk say "aah so you race, I'd be quite interested to try an XC race..." etc etc, whilst those more likely to try a DH race will usually completely blank you when you talk to them!
njee20 - MemberI remember Dirt (IIRC) writing an article about riding in the Surrey Hills and calling it "Aggressive trail" or something like that - riding up the hills, and then "attacking the descents" or some such bollocks. Basically what XC riding is, in an area full of hundreds of people riding XC, but deluding themselves with a different marketing term for it.
Dirt would be testosteroney about it but I think there's a difference between what I'd call classic XC- the "whole ride" thing, covering ground quick etc- and the way they're doing it, climbing purely for the descent, winch up and sprint the drops with a 5 minute breather at each end of the drop to eat haribos and say dude a lot. It's the same trails but you end up having a pretty different ride.
5 minute breather at each end of the drop to eat haribos and say dude a lot
aha - that's unfit xc (uxc!)
I think the problem with XC is money, or lack of potential reward. Any teenager showing XC potential can't help but see what they could earn on the track or the road.
That's the same in the rest of the world, too. There's a lot more money in road - my wife could easily name 3 or 4 top road cyclists (the Spanish ones!) but I'd be *very* surprised if she could name a top XC rider.
I remember Dirt (IIRC) writing an article about riding in the Surrey Hills and calling it "Aggressive trail" or something like that - riding up the hills, and then "attacking the descents" or some such bollocks.
Didn't Brant write an article about "power XC"? I could certainly be wrong, though!
XC racing - what's not to like? 😀
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No what Dirt are re-marketing is just XC. It's how it's always been done that ride to the top and bomb down.
No what Dirt are re-marketing is just XC. It's how it's always been done that ride to the top and bomb down.
Yep, the article I read made a thing about it being a continuous ride, not doing the whole stopping to say "sweet roost brah" every 15 seconds!
That's the same in the rest of the world, too. There's a lot more money in road - my wife could easily name 3 or 4 top road cyclists (the Spanish ones!) but I'd be *very* surprised if she could name a top XC rider.
I agree with that - ms njee20 'follows' the activity of quite a few road riders - Geraint Thomas, Cav, Froome etc, and could name a number more. Despite the fact she's been with me to a number of XC national races, and went to the Olympic XC I'd be shocked if she could name you a single rider to have got on the podium this year!
You not been troubling the business end of races then this year Nick? 🙂
It is incredible to observe the power of marketing. I hate the term 'enduro'. To me, it describes going mtbing. It is what I started doing in 1992/3 and continue to do. Is Enduro mearly a marketing term that a large number of riders can relate to i.e. they hate the climbs but enjoy the descents? Or perhaps it is a dicipline created by the manufacturers specifically for the 5" bikes which they sell?
Perhaps the question to ask is 'what do you percieve to be xc racing?' Is it racing round a field? If so then you are far from truth. Courses have developed over time, some are massively technical, some hilly, some flat. When you ride off road you ride over a variety of terrains which is what I think is reflected in courses used in xc races. Is it bunch of idiots in lycra? Well, lycra is more comfy. As alluded to already, Gorricks, Southern xcs you get the range: baggies and lycra.
XC as an elitist sport? Not sure where this has come from. I've raced national XC and DH and find XC far more friendly. With one or two exceptions, xc riders are approachable and happy to talk with anyone.
XC development - there is more money in DH and road for sure. Not sure how this can be tackled, but then its not my job. A few years ago road racing was pretty low key, Wiggins won a big race and now road races are over subscribed, road bike sales have gone through the roof and certainly the competition has gotten tougher. Perhaps if xc generated a one big success, we would see similar?
You not been troubling the business end of races then this [s]year [/s] decade Nick?
Sadly not!
From our local XC race:
A line
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B line
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C line
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[i]Gorrick - who regularly get 500+ riders[/i]
I've 'raced' in a load of Gorricks over few years I lived near to them, really well organised, good courses for all levels and usually well attended.
But, they really benefitted from having access to quality land near to a large population; ie Swinley plus the MOD land further west and all with an hour of probably +10m people.
It doesn't seem to get any easier....I was mid pack at best in sport but was on a slight upward curve.....sport category in the two years I entered any races was won by Lee Westwood then Jason Boutell. They both won expert the next year and in the case of Jason have gone to the business end of Elites!
I thought the Brownbacks/Hope XC series was quite tricky, quite a few people binned it on certain techy bits and a few injuries on a number of the wet races i went to over the past few years.
Enduro is a term that has come about to describe a racing discipline with a clear format and set of rules. Much like XC and DH.
All of which could be described as going mtbing. In fact, I have no idea why people say "I am going for an XC ride for DH ride etc" it is just silly. You are going for a ride on your bike, it may be a flat field, it may be epic-core rad technical trails and jumps, you might even ride up some hills. You may get a lift up to the top of the hill.
You are only riding XC/DH/Enduro if it is a race. I blame the mags - Dirt magazine especially seems to be a product for those who can't read from those who can't write. They have to put everything in boxes so bike companies can target-market shiny things to people. Fools and their money, and all that.
I noticed he raced at the Meribel world cup in fact. There is a constant stream of riders appearing/maturing from junior for one to stay put. You'd think that they promote x number each year, so you'll move up, but it never happens!
I'm not strong enough technically to win sport races as I did a few years ago, I was talking about this to a friend yesterday actually.
TSC that looks good! Anyone who wouldn't ride the B-line needs to quit riding though 😉
I say give it time and we will be good at XC as well, just look at the youngsters coming through. Great ride yesterday by Isla, Alice Barnes 7th today in her first year as an under 23. Good rides by the Junior boy yesterday as well with young Mr Craig coming through to 25th place and being gridded 70th.
In xc at a [s]world[/s] any level griding is important and it takes a year or two to work your way through to near enough the front of the grid to get a good result, that's why it was the end of the season before the riders that rode U23 last year started making an impact nearer the front.
I race locally and regionally and the fields seem to be getting bigger, and at the fun level it seems to be a load of guys who stand around and chat for a while then we race for an hour, then all chat again. So just like a ride with your mates, but slightly quicker.
As for courses being more technical, yes they are but don't confuse being able to ride something when pottering around with friends and being able to ride it when you have just been racing for an hour and are breathing through your backside, fatigue and speed make obstacles a whole lot harder.
I wouldn't mind it if there were more less technical bits on Gorricks. Passing can be hard on some courses. If passing were easier it'd lead to some closer racing with positions changing, I reckon.
I'm trying to convince my 16 (today) year old brother to get a mountainbike and he's not vaguely interested which is a shame as he's a weapon on his preferred 'razor scooter', but all four of me and my brothers rode either bmx or scooters like many kids do around here.
A solid bmx which isn't badly crashed for £600 should easily last a year with regular use and basic maintenance if ridden with finess, skateparks and pump tracks are abundant around here too and a lot cheaper overall as a hobby. You couldn't do either XC or DH riding that cheaply all year and that's before the parental commitment to travel around is factored in.
Road riding however could appeal to more kids as it's accessible and relatively cheap if you're handy with tools, so maybe this should be the focus as more competitive bums on seats in this discipline would surely result in more dabbling with MTB disciplines once they get older and are self sufficient funding it ?
The club scene is completely different on road than for MTB. That might have something to do with it.
Just looked at the worlds.
There are 4 competitors in the Junior Womens Downhil.
FOUR!
Doesn't look so healthy from that point of view especially considering it's in Europe this year where the majority of the dominant nations are.
thought you could only pick a certain number of riders?
Sorry Ryan but your wrong. At Banjo Cycles XCRampage the other week, there was a guy in grand vets riding an old steel hard tail from the 90's that you could pick up on eBay for nothing I'd imagine.
He was bloody quick!
Xc really really really isn't about kit!!!! A helmet yes, but the rest is up to you 🙂
You probably can and 176 nations have chosen ZERO riders including the UK.
No doubt budget constraints etc will be mooted but if you want medals 1 rider is a DNF in the seeding run.
The other 3 have put up decent times vs the Junior boys times though.
Just looked at the worlds.
There are 4 competitors in the Junior Womens Downhil.
You mean that's the full entry contingent?
Do you not have to qualify for the worlds? Seems a bit weird though.
oh i see, 4 in the whole race, odd
we had a junior female do well in the xc
We do seem to keep producing juniors who show promise, but then the jump in ability needed to do well in the elite races seems to be too much for many of them.
Gorrick works for a couple of reasons IMO. As BR says the location near 10m+ people with the M3 / trains giving easy access gives you a population base. The location pretty much has a single landlord who although wants to ban recreational cycling, is accommodating to the organised events (knows where folks are plus a culture of encouraging competition within the workforce who enter themselves must help). The second and for me most significant reason is that they put on a race event pretty much every month, usually made up of loads of classes. It becomes habit forming and not only can people build into their schedule (easy to get to don't forget) but they can easily see how they are progressing through the year. In many respects it works like the road TT scene - lots of club races in an area which the best guys can then feed into a regional, national and international scene (most of our best roadies come up from either TT or track, again single location base structure)
Events like Big dog, while great fun, happen once a year in their geographical location. I see them more as a social event and although I am aware of similar events all over the UK I haven't got the time (or back in the day when I had the speed, the money to pay travel) to go to race - I would rather save those weekends for a trip to a 'bucket list' venue.
Dirt can't even be bothered to print the Junior Womens seeding even as a one liner after the Junior mens article.
At my regular DH spot, probably more than 50% the riders on any given day will partake in a race/timed event or two at some point during the year, regardless of their ability.
Compare this with the massively popular trail centre down the road and it's more like 15-20% of them who race.
I'd guess the reason for this would be the amount of fitness that it's perceived you need to enter a XC race and not come last by an embarrassing margin. Compare that to DH where there's always a chance you may do alright if you can keep it upright as there always plenty of people falling off.
thisisnotaspoon - Member
I was about to mention the Gorrick, but I think it maybe ilustrates a different point. In the NE there was very little XC racing, whereas in the SE there's loads. Conversely there was DH racing in the NE.
I think that's down to poulation density as much as topography, I don't think people will travel to race XC beacuse if there's no race then they can just go ride with mates to see who's quickest. With DH you need the race infrastructure to see who's quickest as it's not always obvious.
[b]People will therefore travel from a larger area to race DH at Hamsterley, but I don't think they'd show upto an XC race there. [/b]Whereas in the SE there's still Aston Hill etc, but XC racing is far more popular than DH because there's local events so you can turn up to a locla one and race.
The final race of the NE XC MTB series is tomorrow at Hamsterley - I think over 200 riders have attended the series again this year, and it's certainly not riding round a field - the course tomorrow will be laps of the "Hamsterley TT" route (organized by Northern Downhill earlier in the year). So I don't think the lack of top competitors at XC is all down to lack of grassroots support or infrastructure.
I think that the best XC riders come through the BC system and are snaffled by the lure of road racing - it's where the money is if you want to make a career of riding your bike.
Ferguson and Barnes take 5 & 7th in the U23 worlds. Not too shabby!
