[Closed] Who's desperate for a gearbox FS bike then?

I read that review yesterday, although I didn't read the comments so didn't pick up on the comments from the guy from Zerode.

Although his comments about Mike Levy's riding skills were childish and out of order, I do think he has a point about the weight of the bike: Putting over 2kg of tyres on a bike that is meant to be climbed is always going to make it feel sluggish.

He did apologise, and retract some of what he said, later on, which is something.

It’s not really a point though when Mike Levy has ridden lots of 160mm bikes with similar tyres

The rims and tyres are about the same weight I use, but I guess they could have safely saved 200g on the pair of rims.

I didn't even think the review was that harsh. It was full of praise for the DH performance. Zerode fella's response seems very petulant. It was his distributor who sent the bike like that.

And slagging the writer for his bad riding in a video illustrating how not to ride is a bit of a fail.

Not read the review yet. I really wanted to fall in love with the zerode but it just didn't happen. Some aspects of the bike were great but there were some compromises in the ride that for me, just went too far.

no - heavy, they don't work as well as a mech and cost too much.  I personally don't find that Zerode particularly interesting, its certainly not one I would consider with a mech.

Is there no mention of how waterproof the gearbox is?

Looking a the bike it looks to be very similar to a e-bike around the crank/chainring area i.e not much free space for mud to just fall away like on a normal mtb, instead it looks like it will build up in that area which will then inevitably end up being washed off with a hose pipe and could lead to an ingress of water

I would be staggered if the maintenance interval (claimed 10,000km) was anything like that IRL. I suppose NZ does have similarly disgusting weather to us, but even so, anything with cable entry points is going to ship water at some point.

I'd love to have a go on one when they've figured out how to neaten up the shifter to a thumb-jobby. I wonder if they could just have one fatter cable with two cables inside rather than two cables leaving the shifter.

Also, isn't the idle pulley situated just behind the gearbox almost as vulnerable to flying rocks as a conventional mech?

Levy at PB doesn't seem to have had a problem, but about half the gearbox bike reviews I read say they had a fault of some kind during test.

I'd have a Geometron version of this, and I wouldn't have to worry about technical climbing. Just revel in the silence and the amazing suspension.

Not really intrigued by anything else. I love the idea but the technology isn't there yet.

Also, isn’t the idle pulley situated just behind the gearbox almost as vulnerable to flying rocks as a conventional mech?

not really, it will flick up/back if it makes contact with something. Roox Roller Coaster was one of the first decent chain guides years ago as it did exactly this, much better than having it at the rear wheel where it would be limited in its movement

I’m happy for progress but see this more as parallel evolution than as revolution for derailleur-kind.  Derailleurs work just fine for me, gearboxes have a lot of running to do before they’re ready for the mainstream in my view,  although the r&d for ebikes should benefit them I’d think.

I'm all for gearboxes.

I think switching from gears to SS when riding with gears I subconsciously leave a few inches on the drive side for the mech past rocks/stumps.

When I swap back to gears I tend to smash a disproportionate number them then get quite timid for a while! Then swap back to SS and cut corners with impunity.

It's a definite no from me. I like descending, but love charging into short climbs and changing down as I loose momentum. The no changing under power just kills it for me !!!

P.s

I thought the review was very fair. I wish all reviews were as good.

Its only good points were when it went downhill - heavy bike and they didnt need to change gear, so it went down well.

Rear derailleurs dont have problems that need solving.  Plus the biggest and most glaring issue with that gearbox is you can't shift gears while pedaling.

I too dont think its going to be water/mud proof.  Once it fills with muddy puddle water its going to grind to death very fast.

When Pinkbike did a poll of who had broken a rear mech, very few said they had.

When Pinkbike did a poll of who had broken a rear mech, very few said they had.

That I remeber I've broken 3 whilst riding mtb's since 1987. It's not something that I really consider.

But others ride differently or just like different/new things. It's good that the choice is there, even if it's at a price 😨

If you’d asked me a few years ago I would have begged for one, but I managed to destroy 4 expensive derailiers in as many days... grrr

Mate’s got a steel HT with a Alfine 8 box out back and it’s blumming lovely to ride, for just riding rather than being super gnar it’s possibly the nicest bike I’ve ever ridden.

I’m not against the idea, the current way seems complex and less ‘perfect’ in the age of 1x the arguement against them used to be the lack of gears.

Rear dérailleurs have plenty of problems that need solving.  Fragile, can't change gear when stationary, can't shift under load either or you break a chain.  Expensive when the cassettes wear out  thin chains wear out very quickly.  their main advantage is lightness.  I have an alfine, a rohloff and an SS as well as two dérailleur bikes.  Going from the IGH to the dérailleur reminds you how poor dérailleurs can be  and I have XTR ones.  It horses for courses and what compromises you are prepared to make but the longevity of non deraileur drivetrains wins for me

I really fancied a demo of the new Deviate Guide. The poor weather and snow killed that one due to availability but i am really interested to see if an internal gearbox suits my style of riding. I am not a mech breaker as the one i am running has lasted 4 years.

I would like at least 2 days demo to fully get my head round the differences and see if i think they are a positive or too much of a compromise.

spectacularly graceless response from “Zerodeguy”

Innit. surely an example of "don't post while drunk" ?

TJ; I can shift under load with my derailleurs just fine, it's just noisy is all. Mine have no problems that "need solving" it's cheap, reliable, and fits every bike, lasts ages (I've never bust a mech, ever) I don't need to change gear when I'm not going anywhere, and entirely home serviceable...and light.

change gear when stationary

never need to get into a different gear when standing still.  I have enough power in any gear while stationary.

until you have ridden a bike when you can change gear when stationary then you realise what a boon it is.  Never get poor shifting as the drivetrain wears or gets dirty, never drop a chain, can change loads of gears with one movement Gearbox / IGH drivetrains last so much longer - a chain every few thousand miles, a cheap sprocket after many thousand compared to a full drive train at a thousand or two miles at a cost of hundreds. - again when you have ridden a bike with IGH  for a while you realise just how much you save in drivetrains.

Unless you have ridden a IGH / gearbox bike for a good while you cannot appreciate its advantages.

Unless you have ridden a IGH / gearbox bike for a good while you cannot appreciate its advantages.

And you can't appreciate it's many disadvantages as well......

compared to a full drive train at a thousand or two miles at a cost of hundreds.

Now I like the gearbox/IGH idea but you really are overstating that.  A cassette and chain doesn't cost hundreds, more like £30.

There are also disadvantages Mr Blackandwhite which is why I haven't got one 🙂

The shifting under load is an odd one to me.  I can't fathom why you'd crunch through the cassette under heavy load unless you're racing for actual prize money.  Backing off a bit is normal surely?

I've had a Rohloff a few years now and love the shifting while stationary ability.  I miss it going back to my current derailleur system.  There's pros and cons, but overall I'd take the gearbox shifting any day.

What I just can't get on with any more though is the slow pick up.  I'm riding an Onyx clutch hub now with instant pickup and it's fantastic.  The slow pickup on the roly feels horrible in comparison.

The shifting under load is an odd one to me.  I can’t fathom why you’d crunch through the cassette under heavy load unless you’re racing for actual prize money.  Backing off a bit is normal surely?

Well, on a Boris Bike you have to back off almost completely - much more than with a derailleur.

I think I probably break at least one mech a year, which considering I probably ride SS exclusively for at least 9 months is pretty poor going. Usually it'll be a stump or something on the inside of a right hand corner.

Worst were 9/10speed era SRAM, they bent if you so much as looked at a rock on the trail. Got through 3 in a British summer!

Best were 8 and 9 speed shimano. They seemed to twang rather than bend!

As TJ (and Zerode in their response) said, gearboxes aren't perfect, but with practice would pausing your pedal to shift (which you still have to do slightly wit a dereilieur) be any less inconvenient than not being able to shift while not pedaling.

And the cost isn't bad, considering it will not just outlast a cassette by a factor of 10 before it even needs an oil change. And in all that time it should just work, not deteriorate to the point of barely shifting in  fairly short winter ride.

to a full drive train at a thousand or two miles at a cost of hundreds.

don't be so silly. it's nothing like that much, I change cassette, chain, and cable once a year, keep it all clean and tuned and it never misses a beat, just like yours. gearboxes are an alternative fo'shure, but derailleurs are fine for 99% of folk also.

Bedmaker tbf I hardly ever crunch through the gears, but it's just noise, not hurting it.

Rayban / molgrips - I clearly stated above that its a case of what compromise do you prefer.  All systems have compromise  igh / gearbox are heavy and the shifting is never as crisp as a good dérailleur

I might try and invent another alternative.  Hmm.

I really don't understand the comments about tyre weight, that bike needs proper tyres on- it's not about whether the spec was heavy or light, but suitable, and it was. Seems to be a lot of special pleading going on.

I like the idea of a gearbox bike, I'd have had it on my commuter if it weren't for price- and for mountain biking and when they make a good one for a good price I might buy it. Nobody's even trying yet, for this sort of bike.

Backing off a bit is normal surely?

Of course it is. But if you read the review it's backing of to almost no power. So almost no uphill shifting!!

I've got both & I know which I prefer, it's NOT the Rohloff...

Big lump out back affects the balance & has a massive affect on the handling - you're thudding into every dip in the trail & the rear wheel drops like a stone off any jump, shifting is not as controllable compared to a normal setup when you're ragging it. As for the shifting whilst stationary? Big deal....

Yeah it's fairly much maintenance free but that's pretty much it.

Gearboxes are ok, but they aren't the silver bullet some would say they are that's for sure!

I was bored and having a rummage through the comments and found this

"I genuinely believe that for a section of the mountain bike community the Zerode Taniwha is the best and most fun bike they can possibly own. Early on in this journey I tested the Pinion gearbox, modified how I ride and shift and whole heartedly believe that the advantages of the Pinion outweigh the disadvantages. If I hadn’t come to this conclusion the project would never have got off the ground.

It takes a HUGE amount of commitment and risk both financial and personal to make a project like this happen. Anyone that has attempted a similar thing in their life time will understand what this feels like, those of you that haven’t please take the time to think about it. As a result it is very difficult not to take any criticism very personally.

The best place for me is in my garage creating or on my bike riding! Not dwelling on the fact that I don’t have the resources and marketing power etc etc of much bigger brands or that I can’t bring out a new model every few months. I know if I spend time on the interweb taking in what the rest of the bike industry is doing these frustrations become very real to me. Every minute we are exposed to the new best thing ever! 5 seconds later we are looking for something new. I use a handful of rules to ensure I can carry on doing what I love and making bikes and not stressing about what I can’t do. Rule number one is that I don’t look at bike related websites and never look at comments.

Yesterday I broke that rule, the attachment I have to this epic project that has consumed me for years made some of Mikes comments feel like a personal attack on me and it didn’t seem fair that because the large voice he has should expose a huge number of people to his opinion and thoughts on the bike and that these opinions and thoughts differ to mine. Having dug a little deeper I understand that Mike is fully capable of testing a bike to its full potential and I just have to come to terms that he didn’t gel with the shifting and set up in the same way that I do or my customers do. I would prefer that the bike Mike tested was built up with lighter parts that may well be more suited to the style of riding he prefers. But the point of this reply is not to argue or get my point across. It is to say sorry to Mike and that I appreciate that he is also doing the best job he can, his thoughts and opinions are valid and well thought out and I need to obey my own rules not to get upset by people that don’t agree with me or see my point of view.

I hope this helps you all understand what it is like to be in my position and why I said what I said."

In fairness there were some positives included in the review, but if you are going to sell something as an Enduro/all mountain type bike then it will be assessed by comparison with other similar (derailleur shifting) bikes...

9.5k would buy a very good bike with a mech... Or two, and that was really the context he was reviewing it in...

Overall his points were fairly made, and while there is a vocal, foaming at the mouth, mech hating crowd of gearbox proponents even they would have to admit there are some compromises inherent in the pinion box...

Personally I still think the "mech in a box"  solution (see petespeed and RN01) could stand more investigation and development, and would yield a lower drag solution possibly able to shift under load. of course these days people want broad range and those old solutions were worked up for DH racing over a decade ago.

It does also seem like pinion have all but cornered a rather small and expensive niche with early adopters of gearboxes (till SRAM stomp in) and in fairness to zerode the major criticism in that article (as I see)  it wasn't really of the bike, but the way the gearbox operates...

For me. This ol' thing still makes more sense than anything original Levy has ever said.

It's kind of a shame the DH bike design could never really have evolved into a Enduro bike light enough to be of interest

I've no real interest in reading the PB review or the comments on the Taniwha but for any knight jumping to defend Levy's honour over whatever comments Metz made about his riding skill. First take a look at the guy ride. It's actually quite painful to watch. And certainly not worth getting your shiny armour dirty over.

I've had a gearbox FS bike for a couple of years now and I like the Pinion gearbox a lot, so much in fact that I recently bought a hardtail with a Pinion gearbox. Yes they carry a weight penalty and the shifting is different to a derailleur system but I prefer it overall. I think the shifting under load issue is overstated as the only shift i have to think about is the range shift from 5th to 4th but maybe I've adjusted to the system and time my pedaling/shifts without thinking. Having to pedal to shift on derailleur systems was mostly not an issue too (though occasionally inconvenient) but years of using derailleurs probably meant I was dealing with their requirements without thinking about it too.

Every time a magazine reviews a Pinion bike the same old arguments come out.  I rode Rohloff for many years on full sus and hardtail and then spent 4 years on a Pinion bike. Katie’s got an Alfine 11 and I’ve got a belt drive Alfine 8 commuter.

Hub gears are a lump and they do affect handling off road.  I rode with it for many years but I’d not go back.  On road for commuting/utility riding they’re brilliant. Alfine much draggier and the 11 we’ve got has always pissied oil.

Pinion is s different class. Never felt draggy to me, solves weight distribution problem (suspension does work noticeably better - i’ve Ridden basically the same bike with all 3 systems and noticeably better with Pinion. Overall weight distribution is good too.

I think part of the problem is testers never really get them for long enough, and rarely ride old knackered kit - they’re always on bikes a few months old.  Personally I really miss being able to shift when stationary. Despite the slow pick up i found it a real benefit on slow techy, rocky, riding.

≥≥Of course it is. But if you read the review it’s backing of to almost no power. So almost no uphill shifting

Just not the case. Maybe its a learned skill but I was never unable to shift on a Rohloff or Pinion even on super steep, super slow uphill.  I could always take the pressure off and keep riding - you can do it while trackstanding if you need to.  Restarting on a conventional mech is much more problematic, even more so on a 1x11 where more than half a pedal stroke backwards normally means the chain dropping down the block (now theres a broken system) Speed of shift not an issue either. No reason you cant race on them (and how many of us really race anyway)

Why am i not riding one now? They are heavy - overall bike weight is up a 1kg or more and that is noticeable.  Main isssue though is that the gearbox outlasts the frame.  I wanted a slightly different bike and Nicolai didn’t make the new geometry, 27.5 frame, with Pinion.Still trying to work out what to do with the Pinion bike as I’m not getting any real interest on eBay. I might end up stripping it off the frame and getting it built onto a custom frame of some kind.

I really liked the ride of the Taniwha, the mass centralisation really helped and I was even okay with the shifting under load/no load aspect.

The two things that made it a non starter for me were the rotary shifter. It felt quite stiff and ended up rubbing my hand in an unpleasant way. It also felt odd that the indexing was in the box rather than the shifter. It never missed a shift but it felt vague.

The real deal breaker for me was the lag on the gearbox "freewheel". It is around 30°. That made technical climbing and riding through deep ruts a real ball ache.

An electronic shifter or trigger shifter with an instant sprag type freewheel on the box would sort it for me.

An electronic shifter or trigger shifter with an instant sprag type freewheel on the box would sort it for me.

Not an engineer who understands gearboxes, but is this the kind of thing that could eventually work with a Di2-type arrangement in tandem with a clutch at the gearbox, or would that add too much complexity and weight?

whats the fuss

bloke does review

bloke gets arsey about review

loads of people talk about stuff

I like these new developments and these "different" bikes.

But for me "bang for the buck" is key and I'am a big, big fan of the low cost Deore stuff. Yes - there is some maintenance to do. But performance si fantastic - when I'am on the trail I'am just happy and don't miss a gearbox at all.

And when I meet a biker with a gearbox bike I'am glad to have a chat with him and admire the people building these bikes.

But once you have to room, the tools to swap a convential drivetrain: don't see any big issues there.

It's a bike I've thought would be perfect for steep scottish conditions winch and plummet tweed valley kinda riding and I still think it might be. I think the reviewer got a bit of the hump with the gearbox early on and let it taint his experience of what is a bike that seems to descend very well. Weight wise it's not much different from the new transitions (or my old one with >1kg tyres). Hopefully by the time I'm able to afford one the next gen gearboxes will be spot on

A cassette and chain doesn’t cost hundreds, more like £30.

do you even sram bro?

I can't help thinking they're going about gearbox bikes the wrong way.

I'd much rather buy a gearbox bike that changed gears seamlessly and under power that had 5 gears than a heavy one with issues that had 18.