there's only one way to find out:
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Came bounding out of the ferns in front of me - on a flat sandy path in Horsell common and I wasn't going too fast. I normal slow right down for all dogs I see but I obviously didn't see this one.
Don't think I hit him too hard, more of a glancing blow, as he didn't yelp and his owner reckoned he would of if it had - I was over the bars and banged my helmet as usual (only just replaced the last one) but not much of a blow.
Dog was only slightly unsettled afterwards - owner put the lead on but I asked her to let him go to see if he was veering to the left or right, but he was ok 🙂
Hope Pro 3 XC-6 with Stans 355 - it has been to CdB, all over tunnel hill, surrey hills, north downs, swinley with no problems so maybe it was the glancing aspect.
However I had just changed my tyres to Mud-X and used a CO2 cartridge to inflate, which is obviously a cold blast. Wonder if that had anything to do with it?
Now to get it rebuilt...
I hope you got the owners details to claim against them for a new rim/spokes. Dog clearly not under control.
fault?? sometimes shit happens eh
Definately fault as dogs should be under control in public. If it was a wild animal e.g. a badger that would be different.
2nd Neninja. Offence to have a dog not under control in most outdoor places. Owner is liable for any damage caused by dog not being under control.
Had a minor grumble at some bloke today cos his silly little rat dog was all over my wheels, but in fairness he did accept he was in the wrong and was trying to get hold of the little bastard.
I like dogs, but humans take precedence, always. Anyone who thinks otherwise isn't fit to own a dog.
I love how most except the OP is looking at blame whereas he is accepting of the shit happens attitude!
i love seeing dogs run free. if i ride in local woods i am prepared that i may have to stop if a dog/person/wild animal runs across.
🙂
Wow, just imagine if you hit a labrador you could be dead!
However if you had Flow's the story would be a little different.
😉
I love how most except the OP is looking at blame whereas he is accepting of the shit happens attitude!
If I'd had a wunundred plus quid wheel wrecked, needed a replacement helmet etc, not to mention the hassle of having to then get me and my bike home, I'd not be thinking about 'shit happens', more 'you are going to pay for your irresponsibility'. Why should I be out of pocket cos someone fails to act responsibly according to the Law?
Scenario: I'm drunk, I ride my bike back from pub, I crash into YOUR car causing damage.
'Shit happenz', right? 😉
should have been on a 29er...
northshoreniall, sorry but this issue makes me angry. I've had this happen to me too many times now though admittedly it's not ended in damage yet. Fed up too with getting abuse from dog owners when I almost run their animals over.
Elfin has it right, people take precendnce over animals. Letting your dog off the lead in public is fine as long as it's under control - i.e. when you tell it to do something it actually responds.
I don't understand the relaxed attitude the OP has, hats off to him for the calm and relaxed attitude. I'd have been hopping mad.
The collie definitely won, 😯
They're clever buggers y'know 😀 well done op for keeping a sense of humour, shit does indeed happen....
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Well maybe you guys need to be less uptight.
I obviously missed the bit where the dog owner set the collie to seek cyclist mode, silly me. Do you guys also pay for the damage your bikes may cause to the private land owners property when you ride over it? If one of their deliberately planted trees were to cause you to fall off by deviously sticking its slippy root in your way do you chase for compensation too?
As you would have no insurance and very much doubt you'd hang around to own up to damaging the car then yes, shit happens and if I'm that bothered I will go to scrappy and replace the part or live with it.
What consitutes your dog being under control? I am pretty sure letting your dog run is acceptable and under control means not having your dog off the lead if you can't control it around people other dogs and livestock, ie if it tends to bite or wont come back when called.
The whole point of taking your dog for a walk is so it can run a get excercise border collies are working dogs so running in and out of bushes is what they do. If you are riding somewhere people walk dogs this sort of thing is to be expected, If it was somewhere like a trail center then thats well out of order.
Someone once knocked my springer spaniel over on the pavement out side of my house, she was A, on the pavement, B, not wearing a helmet. She went straight over the bars and went off threatening to send the police round, never once asked if my dog was ok or apologised.
Bit of a crapper about the wheel tho! Looks like you hit a bus not a dog!
I'd certainly take the shit happens attitude - its one of those things, unfortunate. However if it was my dog that had caused it I'd probably offer to get the wheel fixed
I wouldnt take the shit happens approach, but that's because I detest dog owners who are not responsible enough to control heir dogs. I like dogs its the owners i often cant stand.
the owner was an older lady - offered to send me a check for £50 - I said I would check the price of a rebuild.
Feel a bit guilty about it though - wasn't as if the dog chased me down and bit me - I would rather see the dog running around than not. Not sure if I would cash it anyway.
Luckily it was only a mile or so from home so I could walk back, better than if I had been halfway round the loop 🙂
Couldn't make my mind up where to go this afternoon - tunnel hill, swinley or surrey hills, so I decided on the local loop - doh!
Will use my spare wheels for a while but a bit nervous as I will have to run tubed for a while 🙁
Aren't Crests the replacement for 355s?
Flows might be overkill with pro3 hubs.
Well maybe you guys need to be less uptight.
Or, maybe people who own dogs simply need to be responsible. It's not a massive ask...
I'd love to be in a position to not have to worry about £100, £200 worth of damage and taxi fares home. Sadly, I'm not. That level of damage would take me a while to be able to afford to get sorted, in the mean time I woon't have the bike to use. Because someone din't act responsibly according to the Law.
I refer you once more to this scenario:
I'm drunk, I ride my bike back from pub, I crash into YOUR car causing damage.
That's YOUR car.
Or:
I have a dog, it's off the lead, knocks you off your bike and you end up needing loads of treatment, are off work for ages, lose loads of money.
'Shit happenz', yeh?
A responsible dog owner in this situation would offer to pay for any damage to be fixed, plus ensure the 'victim' got home ok. That's just simple courtesy, nothing more. The minimum they can do, imo.
The whole point of taking your dog for a walk is so it can run a get excercise border collies are working dogs so running in and out of bushes is what they do
That's fine if it's your own land.
If not, you have to act responsibly. It's as simple as that.
Next time it could be a child's face. 😐
Seeing as you are getting yourself so wound up on the OP's behalf when he seems very chilled about I seriously think you need chill out a bit.
I also understood your hypothetical scenario regarding MY car and my answer remains the same - shit happens.
I take it you know exactly the position of the incident, I don't, so can't accurately assess the dog owners level of responsibility based on the potential risks likely to be encountered, e.g. footpath - shouldn't expect a cyclist to be approaching at a speed above which the animal is trained to recall at, otherwise, as displayed by her responsible act of offering payment the animal I imagine would have been under closer management.
"A responsible dog owner in this situation would offer to pay for any damage to be fixed, plus ensure the 'victim' got home ok. That's just simple courtesy, nothing more. The minimum they can do, imo." -
maybe read the op post above yours and see that this super villain dog owner did this? Also he says was short distance from home so suspect taxi may have been overkill, or slight hysteria from you.
And yes, dog knocks me off bike, shit happens, hopefully it's learnt to keep clear of bikes in future
Get a grip. How you gonna prove who had the right of way in a country park. Dog's have as much right to live on this rock as you or I do!
Seeing as you are getting yourself so wound up on the OP's behalf when he seems very chilled about I seriously think you need chill out a bit.
😆
Ok then.
Get a grip.
I do actually need a new pair. Got any recommendations?
No recommendation I'm afraid, I'm just a mug who takes what the shop recommend, once the colour matches frame obviously
Odi ruffian mx are the only ones for me!
Ruff-ians you say? Preferred by collies I believe
Odi yeti, luvverlyjubberlyrubberie.....
Owner offered to pay, sterling effort IMO. If it was a chav scumbag I'll bet they would be trying to claim off you for the dog regardless of whether it was injured haha
😆
Actually these 'womens' ones might be good cos I've got weeny little haynds:
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Or these Clarks Lock On ones look good:
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These look like garden tool handles:
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I spose the level of liability of the dog owner would depend upon whether the dog wasn't trained or controlled well enough to not run at bikes or be commanded to stop. If the dog was just running across the path of the bike coincidently then it could be 'knock for knock' so to speak, or even the cyclists fault, for failing to brake or take evasive action.
All three situations are possible, and given that the OP didn't give extensive details of the incident, I think it's fair to say he's not too fussed about playing the blame game. Nice of the dog owner to offer a donation towards a new rim, I would accept with good grace and move on. Main thing is, both rider and dog are uninjured.
Nice of the dog owner to offer a donation towards a new rim, I would accept with good grace and move on. Main thing is, both rider and dog are uninjured.
Yeah, ultimately, that seems like a reasonable conclusion tbh.
I initially thought the op had a fiscal dilema about which one to buy!
What tyresTGIF running into a collie?
Peace restored!
Owner offered to pay, sterling effort IMO
indeed - she took my mobile number to call me later and then actually did!
Seemed a nice lady - might have been a little defensive to start with but my concern for the dog probably disarmed her!
It was on horsell common so whereas there are a few bridleways and footpaths there are also loads of unofficial paths that even the horses go down. I would have to look at the map to see what it was - I think it was a bridleway due to the width and a horse came along shortly afterwards.
No chance to brake - didn't see him until he was under me - then I saw him for a while as I rotated through the air!
Bonty Mud-Xs clearly not good for avoiding dogs 🙁
should have left my ignitors on...
Those mud x's must be from the same jinxed batch as mine. First ride with then on today and I'm now sat here with my left wrist in a cast. And I don't have a dog as an excuse for my silly fall...
+1 OP's attitude +1 Jedi!
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:0 Is it just me?
about 4 weeks ago I could have told you the outcome of springer versus wheel versus cutgate....2 broken twos and a toenail removal later we are all getting along fine again
ps dog's change direction so quickly
sorry but thats clearly the riders falt , should have bunny hopped ( or should that be collie hopped ?) the poor animal.shows the rider was out of control not the dog !! 😕
I also once hit a collie - was out on an MTB ride but on a road section.
The dog bolted out from the owners drive & I hit it in its side - I went over the bars & landed on the tarmac (slightly downhill & I was traveling at a medium pace).
Luckily I only got a couple of minor cuts & the bike was undamaged.
Lucky for the dog I wasn't a car/bus/lorry etc.
or a childs face, it could be next time 😀
Does Jedi do courses in emergency dog hopping? If so I am signing up 🙂
oh there's a nique to teach i never considered 😉
'big hitter' getting wound up by a big hit
If you are passing people and animals at more than walking pace on shared use land then you are going too fast irrespective if the dog is under control or not. That is the "responsible" way to share the land. If you can't stop in the distance you can see then you are going too fast. If you can't do that safely where you ride then go somewhere else or go to dedicated bike trails. Muppet mtbrs who think it is their right to go as fast as they like where ever they want give the sport a really bad name. The OP doesn't sound like this kind of person btw way but some of the "file a claim" tards most certainly are. Shit does happen and it is very rarely just one party's fault. If someone had just hit my dog on shared use land and then asked me for compensation, they would most likely be looking for a doctor to remove their forks from their arse.
You are liable for the damage your dog causes - no ifs buts and ands - if your dog knocks someone off you are liable to compensate the cyclist for the damage caused.
The very fact your dog knocks someone off shows the dog is not under control and you have a legal responsibility to keep the dog under control
Is a 'nique' a 'niche technique'? 😉
On the other subject, welcome to holier-than-thou-world.com
Maybe on a pavement but not on common land. A cyclist at more than walking pace is acting irresponsibly and therefore has no right to try and apportion blame. We all know your thoughts on dog control where if a dog comes up and sniff you it's completely out of control and quite frankly they are ridiculous. Your world is a strange one.
shits gonna happen now.......
The very fact your dog knocks someone off shows the dog is not under control and you have a legal responsibility to keep the dog under control
Cobblers! All users have a shared responsibility, if your going too fast in a multi user area and hit a dog/Childs face, it's your own fault.
It really is just one of those things, the "where theres blame thers a claim" society we have come to live in just can not seem to accept that accidents do happen a second either way and dog/wheel would have missed each other.
And here are the typical dog owners trying to defend the indefensible again.
You need to go and check the law - the kennel club has a good section on it.
Its very clear and simple - you have a duty to keep your dog under control and you are liable for any damage the dog causes. The dog knocks someone off their bike you are liable for any damage caused. its that simple. If the dog knocks someone off their bike they are not under control
It's also a problem 'lack of personal responsibility' society. I want to do this, it impacts others but I don't care because I want to do it. Take responsibility for your dog and its actions - train it properly and clean up after it. Why should a person get injured because of your choice to get a dog and not keep it under control as the law requires. I would maintain that a good definition of under control is whether the dog responds to the owners commands, if the answer is no then it is not under control and should be on a short lead.
Going too fast* on a shared trail is out of order, as is allowing a dog to be out of control such that it causes a hazard to other trail users. It's not just mtb'ers either - I know some of the horse riders have trouble with dogs too as some horses are quite nervous of them.
*What is too fast is another debate. I like the see to stop rule, but also just going at a steady pace on busy sections or when around other users.
Khani:
[url= http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1991/65/section/3 ]Keeping dogs under proper control.
[/url](1)If a dog is dangerously out of control in a public place—(a)the owner; and
(b)if different, the person for the time being in charge of the dog,
is guilty of an offence, or, if the dog while so out of control injures any person, an aggravated offence, under this subsection.
(2)In proceedings for an offence under subsection (1) above against a person who is the owner of a dog but was not at the material time in charge of it, it shall be a defence for the accused to prove that the dog was at the material time in the charge of a person whom he reasonably believed to be a fit and proper person to be in charge of it.(3)If the owner or, if different, the person for the time being in charge of a dog allows it to enter a place which is not a public place but where it is not permitted to be and while it is there—
(a)it injures any person; or
(b)there are grounds for reasonable apprehension that it will do so,
he is guilty of an offence, or, if the dog injures any person, an aggravated offence, under this subsection.
(4)A person guilty of an offence under subsection (1) or (3) above other than an aggravated offence is liable on summary conviction to imprisonment for a term not exceeding six months or a fine not exceeding level 5 on the standard scale or both; and a person guilty of an aggravated offence under either of those subsections is liable—(a)on summary conviction, to imprisonment for a term not exceeding six months or a fine not exceeding the statutory maximum or both;
(b)on conviction on indictment, to imprisonment for a term not exceeding two years or a fine or both.
(5)It is hereby declared for the avoidance of doubt that an order under section 2 of the M1Dogs Act 1871 (order on complaint that dog is dangerous and not kept under proper control)—
(a)may be made whether or not the dog is shown to have injured any person; and
(b)may specify the measures to be taken for keeping the dog under proper control, whether by muzzling, keeping on a lead, excluding it from specified places or otherwise.
(6)If it appears to a court on a complaint under section 2 of the said Act of 1871 that the dog to which the complaint relates is a male and would be less dangerous if neutered the court may under that section make an order requiring it to be neutered.
(7)The reference in section 1(3) of the M2Dangerous Dogs Act 1989 (penalties) to failing to comply with an order under section 2 of the said Act of 1871 to keep a dog under proper control shall include a reference to failing to comply with any other order made under that section; but no order shall be made under that section by virtue of subsection (6) above where the matters complained of arose before the coming into force of that subsection.
It seems that some people on here don't fully understand their legal responsibilities that come with the privilege of owning a dog. I think things would be improved if all people using open spaces and the outdoors understood what responsibilities there are, and how to act accordingly.
As for 'going too fast'; obviously, it's common courtesy to ride safely and with consideration for others. But unless specified, there is no actual speed limit for bicycles away from public highways. The only offence I can think of where a cyclist could be charged is for 'cycling furiously' or something daft like that.
A cyclist at more than walking pace is acting irresponsibly and therefore has no right to try and apportion blame
Mind finding the relevant bit of Law which supports your claim?
I always slow down if I'm aware dogs are around. Because I know just how unpredictable dogs are. Had to stop altogether for an old lab yesterday, as it was taking up most of the path fat old thing! It's owner apologised but I din't mind at all; I'm sharing the trail with others.
Hooning around without due care and consideration for the conditions and other people is out of order. Riding at a sensible pace whilst keeping an eye out for possible hazards is the way to go. Having a dog suddenly cut across your path isn't something you can reasonably make allowances for, no matter how fast you're going.
How would you feel if a dog suddenly ran across a road in front of your car, causing you to swerve and crash? Should you not be driving in a manner where you can take action to avoid such an instance? Are you driving too fast if you can't avoid an accident?
If you can't stop in the distance you can see then you are going too fast
Surely this applies to all modes of transport then? Maybe we should all travel at walking pace, just in case something happens?
If someone had just hit my dog on shared use land and then asked me for compensation, they would most likely be looking for a doctor to remove their forks from their arse.
Please. 🙄 What if they're bigger and harder than you? What are you going to do then?
Oh, and the little yappy thing that annoyed me and it's owner yesterday wasn't on a lead, in an area where it is legally required to be. As were most other dogs in that area. Not actually a problem, if the dogs are well-trained and keep away from other people though, is it?
Oh, and the little yappy thing that annoyed me
The parallels are amusing 🙂
The blame claim stuff is about people seeking compensation for all kinds of spruious things. The commentary on here has merely related to receiving compensation for the cost of damage so as not to be out of pocket. Personally I wouldn't bother about personal injury for a few bruises and scratches etc and would want to be reimbursed for the cost of damaged kit. If I lost earnings as a result that would be different.
The parallels are amusing
😀
I had a go back at it, which made it back off a bit. Obviously suffering from Small Dog Syndrome...
I understand the law elf, but TJ's robocop mantra about dogs and the law dosnt actually wash
If your going to fast in a shared user area and hit a dog it's your fault
If a dog runs at or across you and you fall off it's the dogs fault
If you're looking one way and the dogs looking another way and your paths cross, that's [i]Shit happening[/i]
In the real world........
has anyone pointed out yet that on this evidence Stans 355 rims are rubbish?
If someone had just hit my dog on shared use land and then asked me for compensation, they would most likely be looking for a doctor to remove their forks from their arse.
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If you're looking one way and the dogs looking another way and your paths cross, that's Shit happening
In the real world
Nope - the dog must be under control in a public place - this is the bit you will not accept.
You have legal duty to keep your dog under control and if you fail to do so then you are liable for any damage the dog causes.
And You have a legal duty to ride in a responsible manner in a shared user area as well,
It's not as one sided as you make it out to be, all users have a responsibility in some form, not just dogs
TJ, so if you go out and run over a dog that is minding its own business on land where it is fine for it to be off the lead, and is perfectly under control, it's the dogs fault? Really?
No he's not saying that though is he?
He's talking about dogs running about and causing accidents like the OP's one, where it seems he was actually riding responsibly.
v8 -if the dog knocks you off the bike it is not under control. If its under control it will not knock someone off their bike
Khani - no matter how much you wish it to be the case it is not.
As soon as I see other people I slow to an appropriate pace - including very slow when around unleashed dogs in case they do something unpredictable.
The dog ran out of the undergrowth - I would have had to be at walking pace to avoid.
As it is I was only doing a reasonable pace - maybe 7 or 8 mph. The damage to the wheel makes it look a lot worse - it must have been the sideways blow on the wheel.
Trouble is the whole route is 'shared use' as it is bridleways. If I stuck to walking pace the whole way round in case a dog leapt out at me then there is little point going out for any exercise - I might as well stay at home playing computer games and be a future burden on the NHS and suck up some of your taxes.
And that also mean the only places I could go safely would be dedicated cycle centres as anywhere else is shared use.
It is a shame that there wasn't someone behind with a camera - it would have made a good sequel to that "Only in Africa" one.
Could have given in an alien slant as it was only a few hundred yards from where the martians landed.
The op said the dog didn't chase him or try to bite him.
I understand what tj's saying, if one of my dogs chased someone and knocked them off then I would accept responsibility, but if someone came hooning round a corner and hit my dog then they are at fault
Shared use means shared responsibility
Khani; I give to you infos on send to me email and you is ignore me. 😥
Oh and TJ sed:
The dog knocks someone off their bike you are liable for any damage caused.
He did not say:
[i]'If you are hooning along and hit a dog the owner is liable for any damage caused'.[/i]
S'important, that bit, before people start getting frothy. This is an important area for discussion for all users of outdoor spaces, and there needs to be better understanding on all sides. In my own experience, the vast majority of cyclists are in fact responsible, considerate users of the trails, but sadly, there is a significant proportion of dog owners who aren't. In all my years of using the canal towpaths for example,, I have seen a few incidents where cyclists have bin dicks, but far more incidents where dogs off the lead (and even on the lead sometimes) have caused problems and accidents, including frightening young children.
I've bin accused of frightening and wiinding dogs up, just for riding past them. Yeah, cos it's all [i]my[/i] fault your dog is badly trained and/or too highly strung to be taken to places like a canal towpath where there isn't much space...
Sorry elf, I'm at work at the mo, I'll mail you in a bit 😀
v8 -if the dog knocks you off the bike it is not under control. If its under control it will not knock someone off their bike
Yeah but saying dog knocks cyclist off bike is a bit subjective, isn't it? Cyclist and dog collide would seem to be a more impartial way of putting it in this instance. Strikes me that the OP was riding in a perfectly reasonable manner, and that the dog emerged from the undergrowth at an unfortunate moment. Now, we don't know if the dog has a cyclist barging affliction, in which case, absolutely, the dog owner would be at fault for failing to train/control the animal, or whether it was just co incidentally crossing the OPs path, with bad timing. In which case, simply one of those things in my book, or if you really must play the blame game, shared responsibility, knock for knock. As I said before, very nice of the dog owner to offer to put towards a new rim, and on the flip side, if I was the cyclist and the dog had been injured, I would have offered to put towards vets bills, without prejudice.
v8 - it is your responsibility to prevent it tho - simply the fact that the dog has knocked the rider off makes you liable - no shared responsibility - you are liable for any damage your dog causes thru not being under control and if the dog knocks someone off a bike it cannot have been under control.
Did you copy down me email addy though Khani?
So was it dog knocks of cyclist or cyclist runs down dog ??
No, I'm rubbish...sorry 🙁 mine in my profile...
So was it dog knocks of cyclist or cyclist runs down dog ??
Or dog and cyclist collide?
Must be nice to live in your head TJ, where everything is so black and white...
You didn't answer my previous post, btw.
V8ninety - Not always black and white, also get red and tricolour collies too, and blue merle 🙂
Dog and cyclist collide ???? That would never happen that would be an accident prob meaning nobody to blame
v8 -if the dog knocks you off the bike it is not under control. If its under control it will not knock someone off their bike
See, this is where you are wrong. Dogs can be perfectly under control of their owner, yet still make errors of judgment themselves. Example; a police dog handler friend of mine's dog bit the bobbie rather than the bad guy in a fracas, not the dog or the handlers fault, more the bitten bobbies for not getting clear when he should have. Another example; a good friend of mine has a wonderfully well trained lurcher, that takes great pleasure in bowling past him at full speed, impressive to say the least. Until the dog makes a slight navigational error, slams into my mates legs and dumps all 20 stone of him unceremoniously onto his back. Was very funny, wish we got it on tape.
You see, dogs are in control of their actual movements, the best owners can only hope to suggest directions, and tell it when to stop. Radio controlled they are not.
Bloody hell you lot. I imagine next time i come down the wall final descent there will be a claims4u representative present at the bottom!