[Closed] Wheelbuilding. From scratch.

A little PSA for fellow stockpilers: JE James currently have 700c XM319s for a cheerful £10 a pop with free postage. I've got a couple, they seem like nice enough rims for anything from road to XC:

https://www.jejamescycles.com/mavic-xm319-32h-rim-29er.html

Oh, one more thing,

If you're a novice, it's easier to build a strong wheel with 36 spokes over a lesser number.

Meh, I think the difference between 32 and 36 is insignificant for almost everyone. I went years before I bothered with a 36, and even then I only did it for the sake of doing something different. The main difference a beginner will find with a 36 is that it takes about 12% longer to build 😉

There's minimal difference between building 32 and 36 imo. I started on 32, I've only built 36 when cheap hubs or rims have arrived by "accident"

Either is a good place to start. I'd not recommend starting with a 20-spoke DT revolution build....

Define "better"

If you want to just get started as easily as possible, you can read less than half of Sheldon's page and crack on. It's what I did, and it's served me well over the years.

I've no doubt Roger's book has more information in it and is "better". It's just that unless you're building for relatively exceptional demands, you'll almost certainly only need to know the core stuff; you can pick up the finer details much later, or by experience alone, if you ever find the need.

So you needn't feel it's "better" to digest an entire book in order to build a decent wheel.

Its not really a book though, its a guide on how to build wheels with all the info you need. It doesn't go into massive detail on every issue, but it does explain why you do things as well as how you do them. I've built wheels using it which have turned out very good indeed. For £3 its a bargain

I've only ever built 36 out of necessity - because that's what unicycle hubs are (TBH I'm happy to have the extra strength there). Most of my bike wheels have been 32 (the only exceptions being my roadie wheels which are 18/24 - wouldn't recommend doing those for your first wheels!) Couldn't say I really noticed the difference - and if you build a rubbish 32h wheel then you'd still build a rubbish 36h one.

+1 for the Musson book as described by newrobdob. It's an excellent primer but not something you'd read cover to cover. Use it as an information source and it's fine. Myself and a friend both built our first wheels around the same time using it. He was unhappy with the wheels he built, paid a shop to fix them and never built again. I now prefer to build my own and am pleased with the wheels I make. It would have been interesting to see if there was a difference if we'd been to some sort of instructor led course instead. At the end of the day it's a skill and as such can be taught, but if self teaching then there's wide scope for how successful you will be I think.

Personally I'm using a Minoura stand and a dishing stick and find the combo works well for me, but I'm not working on the clock. I found the basic Park tension gauge was a game changer for me, but agree that it's not a necessity, just a useful thing to have that makes life easier.

More opportunities for fancy lacing with 36 spokes though.

Bez - Member
Meh, I think the difference between 32 and 36 is insignificant for almost everyone. I went years before I bothered with a 36, and even then I only did it for the sake of doing something different. The main difference a beginner will find with a 36 is that it takes about 12% longer to build

Anybody use spoke washers?

[quote=sv ]Anybody use spoke washers?

No, I'm not worried about them being a bit dirty.

aracer - Member
sv » Anybody use spoke washers?
No, I'm not worried about them being a bit dirty.

I haven't used them before but I've ordered some this time just in case, as I've ordered some of the ACIs from Cyclebasket and I gather they can be a bit longer in the elbow than DTs.

Rainbow nipples have arrived (with a couple of bonus stickers). Nice.

Right, this has got me thinking too much.
The front wheel on my 2016 901 is dying fast - It's cup and cone and it's properly knackered. Rim is fine, but I figure the chance of being able to relace a new hub onto the same rim (using the same spokes) is pretty small. So would seem an ideal time for a build.

What would a decent budget front hub with 32h, good sealing, and cartridge bearings be? Some form of Novatech?
Likewise, good budget rim (<£35ish?) that's lightish (mid 400s would be lovely! Dream world...?)
650b, 15x110

I mean, I'm a tart so it'd be nice to have matching front and rear, but I'm still tempted to buy a Hope front hub just because in my experience they work. But that sort of buggers the whole 'budget' thing...

Novatec hubs are pretty durable and easy to service - when the time comes it's easy to drift-out and replace the bearings with better quality ones. In terms of spokes, I use ACI double-butted for regular 32 hole builds - I don't see the benefit of paying 3-4x the price for a Sapim or DT Swiss equivalent and I've never had a spoke break. Kinlin are an OEM manufacturer of rims that get rebranded and sold by others - worth checking what's available.

Novatech hubs have always been decent in my experience. Superstar fronts come in at around £45 for all your tarty colourful needs too.

Planet X have some well-priced Pacenti rims at the mo too.

Pacenti something something 28s? Decent enough for general trail duties? I'm a light Rider but ride reasonable hard, but can probably get away with not the toughest.
Any recommendations on which particular Novatech model, and good places to buy? I suppose it may work out cheaper just to buy a pair...

Should have bought some of those cheap dt350s a few months back, grrrr.

I have a set of DT350s (new, black/32H/6 bolt/F 15mm/R 142x12/Shimano freehub ) email in profile if interested.

Right, I've just purchased a set of 350s from the chap above.
So, I guess the first thing to do is measure the 'Whyte' branded hubs I already have up ( https://leonard.io/edd/howtomeasure) in the distant hope that they might be the same dimensions. They won't be. But I'll do it anyways. Because I'm an optimist(The internet seems to suggest they may be rebranded Formulas)

When it turns out they aren't, a few slightly spoon feedy questions:
- Would it be an idea to try my first build with the rim that's already on there (it's quite straight) or would I be better with a brand new, 'known good' one?
- Can I reuse the nipples? Is this a really silly idea?
- Am I best to use really cheap spokes and rim for my first build? Any recommendations on what to use?

Against all common sense, but due to necessity, my first build will be a front wheel. :/

- Would it be an idea to try my first build with the rim that's already on there (it's quite straight) or would I be better with a brand new, 'known good' one?

If it's still spot on then it should be fine to use it - worth putting in a wheelbuilding jig and checking. If there's a very slight wobble ( < a couple of mm) either laterally or in diameter then it should be OK.

- Can I reuse the nipples? Is this a really silly idea?

Silly idea!

- Am I best to use really cheap spokes and rim for my first build? Any recommendations on what to use?

Might as well use decent ones. You'll probably end up re-lacing once or twice but after that you are building a wheel so you may as well do it right first time. My first wheel build was with a dynamo hub and I just followed the instructions/methodology in the Masson book.

Excellent, thank you!
I guess if I'm buying new spokes I should probably weigh the rims, see if they're decent, and if not, then get a new rim as well(I haven't broken these yet, despite frequently dropping off most parts of Hatton Flight on the way to work...)
So, DT comps from Rose? Generic brass nipples?

- Can I reuse the nipples? Is this a really silly idea?

Silly idea!

Not IME, I've never had any problems from reusing brass nipples, I wouldn't reuse aluminium ones though. whitestone, what issues have you run into ?

DT Comps will be fine, but tbh whatever branded DB spoke you can easily get hold of will probably do for most usage. DT, Sapim and ACI are the only ones I've used though.

@johnners - none - didn't see where brass was specified though. Apologies if I missed it.

Ace, thanks for all the help so far.

So, moon on a stick rim requirements:
- 650b
- 25 to 30mm ID
- sub 500g
- Trail capable
- not tricky to build with
- as cheap as possible

Suggestions?
Was going to look at TL28s but unfortunately not wife enough.
Best I've found so far are Stans Arch for about 50 quid.

I've just built a pair of Pacenti DL31 in 26". They were 520g per rim and 26mm internal. They built very well and look solid. I paid £13 each for mine although they are now £14.99. I'd certainly recommend them as they look and built great.

Good stuff, cheers. I'm looking at those or the web i25s for a tenner on PX. Neither fall under the magic weight but both ace the other requirements!

The Stans rims are very light, it's remarkable how light they are compared to a lot of the other brands but they seem to hold up fine in use.

Yeah, but 5 times the price of the WTBs! I'm finding it hard to look past that tbh!
I knew I should have stocked up on those cheap Easton ARCs when CR were knocking then out!

Can't recommend mussons book enough. After building one wheel with just a spoke wrench and having to build 2 more, I decided to build his stand.
It's much more work than I thought, and hopefully worth it (will use it this weekend for the first time).
This was a few days ago, now it's primed, just need to add two layers of paint:
[img] [/img]

I'll open a thread with all the info about materials and cost once it's finished, but I think the two I made came around £15 each.

Right, can I ask a few spoke spec questions from the knowledgeable people?!
I've got some lovely 350s here in my hand, and I've ordered some of the WTB ST i25s from PX (really wanted Arches, but didn't couldn't justify the price. Handily, ERD is the same as the WTBs for future changes though)
ERD of the WTBs is 567 according to [url= https://www.wtb.com/products/st?variant=5007968324 ]this[/url].
Can I trust that, or do I need to wait for them to turn up and measure?

Planning on getting black ACI Alpinas from [url= https://www.cyclebasket.com/m9b0s453p1832/ACI_Alpina_BLACK_DB_Spokes_Packet_Of_10 ]here[/url] and matching black 12mm nipples. Is 12mm correct?

Using the [url= https://spokes-calculator.dtswiss.com/en/calculator ]DT Spoke calculator[/url] and selecting the nearest equivalent DB spokes and 12mm Pro Loc nipples (I figure they're closest!) it's coming out with spoke lengths of
F:273.3(l), 275.5(r)
R: 274.6(l) 274.4(r)

So, can I get away with using 274s for all of them? Cyclebasket don't appear to list 276s(next largest is 280). I suspect the answer is no...

Thanks in advance!

submarined - Member
...
ERD of the WTBs is 567 according to this.
Can I trust that, or do I need to wait for them to turn up and measure?
...
Using the DT Spoke calculator and selecting the nearest equivalent DB spokes and 12mm Pro Loc nipples (I figure they're closest!) it's coming out with spoke lengths of
F:273.3(l), 275.5(r)
R: 274.6(l) 274.4(r)

So, can I get away with using 274s for all of them?

Anyhow I always measure these days.

I reckon you'd get off with 274 for all except the 275.5.

BTW if there is a cross-section diagram of the rim you can often get enough dimensions off it to get a pretty good approximation of the ERD.

For example if a known rim is 21mm deep but the one you are getting is 20mm deep, then the odds are the ERD is 1mm greater. That's because the bit from the tyre bed to the top of the flange is usually almost the same on both rims.

But it's still better to actually measure.

For example if a known rim is 21mm deep but the one you are getting is 20mm deep, then the odds are the ERD is 1mm greater. That's because the bit from the tyre bed to the top of the flange is usually almost the same on both rims.

Even if that were a reliable method, surely the difference would be 2mm?

Bez - Member
Even if that were a reliable method, surely the difference would be 2mm?

I'll open a thread with all the info about materials and cost once it's finished, but I think the two I made came around £15 each

Before I purchased a stand I put together a full set of manufacturing drawings for the Musson Stand as I was going to get one made by our in house workshop where I work. I'd happily supply them to anyone if you email me as they are in PDF format.

^^^^ I may take you up on that, very kind!

Right, rims have arrived, and I've measured the ERD to be withing 0.5mm of the quoted one, happy with that.
I'll order DT Comps from Rose, is it worth getting DT Pro Lock nipples? Or are they a pain?

Also, trivial thing, but any recommendations for a spoke key?

I like the horseshoe type ones (Park and others look similar). But importantly, attached to a ribbon round your neck.

Spokey all the way for me. No ribbon.

But importantly, attached to a ribbon round your neck.

And not for when actually building the wheels. Wearing a spoke key necklace to the pub and on rides is a sign to all of your riding buddies that you've finally achieved Bike Mechanic Guru status.

Mailed you require the drawings Tim. Thanks in advance

Re the drawings, bloody auto correct

I have built a few Stans rims Arch & Flow MK3 with DT Swiss & went 274 on rear & 274 & 276 on front with Sapim race spokes with 12mm brass nipples

Anybody use spoke washers?

I’ve heard them being recommended for ebike wheel builds where the motors in the hub, but it was for pretty crazy ebike applications not the norm.

I’m a spokey kinda guy.

I wouldn’t wear it round my neck as you’d end up with a lot of new ‘friends’ wanting wheels trued.
(I don’t mind tbh as It’s a relaxing thing to do)

So I've just found out why ACI spokes are cheap. Laced up a wheel and now I have black hands.

Think I'll stick with DT in future.

I have all the bits I need.

And a Spokey.

Soooo, I've ordered some anyways, but opinion seems hugely split:

Boiled linseed oil on threads - Y/N?

dab of grease around each spoke hole? Y/N?

My thinking is currently Y/Y.