[Closed] Wheel size standards - industry tactics

Not sure if I'm feeding a troll here but anyway, why pick Specialized as your sample brand when they are one of the few that don't have a 650b in their 2014 line up?

They pretty much ride the same. It's just a way to part the gullible from their excess £££

It's marketing politics. The industry tried to convince us all to buy 29, they've now realised we are not going to so the next new thing is 27.5, it's too embarrassing for them to just revert back to 26, certainly not immediately.

"The Industry" does not act as one entity, but yes, they are bigging up minor differences/improvements in order to get folk to buy new stuff.

Not as bad as 15mm/tapered steerers iMO.

Specialized are still 29er anyway.

Ok I'll jump in because I'm sick of all the bollocks being spouted about the difference or NO difference between 26 and 27.5. There is a significant difference and it matters in so many ways.
Take your seat post and drop it by 1.5 inches. Change the stem length on your fave ride by 20mm and see how that feels.
There are people on here psh pshin about 650b and the lack of difference it has between 26 but they bleat on instead about a difference in head angle of 3 degrees or 120mm over 140mm travel and 2.2 v 2.3 tyres.
As we all know, a tiny bit of anything makes a big difference on the trail. Try it and make up your own mind because the industry invests millions to develop products that perform better. Surely no one with half a brain would believe they are investing their money to develop a range of bikes which are of no incremental benefit from the ones they've been selling for the last 30 years.
Yes, it's true. A lot of riders don't prefer 29 over 26 and the difference between the two is easily noticeable, by even a lunk rider.
Seriously though, do you think that a horde of pro riders have been brainwashed into believing their 650b rides are better than 26 or 29 and in fact they aren't at all and they are all just gullible and stupid?

gears_suck - Member
Seriously though, do you think that a horde of pro riders have been brainwashed into believing their 650b rides are better than 26 or 29 and in fact they aren't at all and they are all just gullible and stupid?

You believe pros don't ride what they're paid to ride?

industry invests millions to develop products that [s]perform[/s] sell better

You know every time someone starts a wheel size thread, a kitten dies?

You believe pros don't ride what they're paid to ride?

So when Kulhavey won the Olympic gold medal on a full suspension 29er he either thought it was the best tool for the job and was proven correct or he was made to ride a bike he didn't really think was the best tool for the job and still won an Olympic gold medal. Either way the bike comes out of it looking pretty good .

No trolling intended, this thread isn't about one size vs another, more seeking insight into how the industry operates! And I guess Specialized were the wrong example...

You believe pros don't ride what they're paid to ride?

You'll sell more race bikes winning races.

If the company you work for developed a product, along with virtually everyone else in the industry, in order to take advantage in an opening in the market, would you put your conspiracy theory tin foil hat on, or would you say, oh hey, a chance for my company to expand its revenue stream, generate income and keep me in a job?

Is called the bike industry because it's an industry. Bike composite aren't fluffy charities, they're businesses, of course, if they can make a product that will sell, they will.

650B is taking off because people are buying them. If you don't like it, don't buy it - there are still some 26" and 29" bikes available. Are you still buying CRT televisions and wind up telephones?

how the industry operates

To recap a million other threads...

It doesn't seem to be really true that this is purely an industry push. Santa Cruz are hilariously honest about it, they made what they thought would sell not what they think is best, and that was driven by customers asking for 650b bike who had [i]never ridden one.[/i] People who'd sold it to themselves based on nothing. So we pretty much got the "wheel size revolution" we deserve for being morons.

It's basically a perfect storm. 26 is old and boring but works very well. 29er also works very well but is a scary change as it's 3! THREE! bigger, and you can actually see the difference.

So there was an appetite for change and an interest in novelty, but a counterbalancing fear of change. The perfect and pointless answer was a change big enough to make people feel like they're buying something new and exciting, yet not different enough to be scary. Course, that also means it has to be a less worthwhile change but people are buying change rather than results.

Even then, they got it a bit wrong, hence the quiet lie of calling it 27.5 to convince people it's bang in the middle.

Cycling is a small world, one company finds out the other is going 650b and does the same to 'keep up' - Then the marketing department takes over.....

We are a strange bunch us cyclist though - a business is there to turn a profit, they will maximise this however possible.

People who'd sold it to themselves based on nothing. So we pretty much got the "wheel size revolution" we deserve for being morons.

yep, pretty much what i have heard secondhand from Trek, they aren't interested in making 650, new tooling etc. But the market wants them so they are making them.

IMO it is stupid, and i am not buying a new bike until i have a clue where the market is going, but such is life.

I heard a rumour that it all started with product managers from a big brand talking loudly at an industry dinner (not an Illuminati one sorry, just a parts supplier's bash) about this awesome new wheelsize, everyone was really into it, the marketing pitch works and we're going big on it for next model year now that the fork maker has got a fork for us.. etc. Deliberately loud, so other PMs could hear. Next thing the fork brand has a load more orders and sense a trend. And here we are. Some paranoid, some not caring. Others quite liking a slightly bigger wheel. The rest are on 29ers and CNGAS : )

Specialized certainly have the "mid size" wheel coming out sooner than you think...Sea Otter Race in the USA is where we will see their popular trail and enduro bikes with this wheel size 😉

Its a highly competitive industry and every manufacturer is trying to find something to distinguish themselves from their competition and stimulate more sales. No different to any other industry or any other product in that regard.

So now that the frame material thing has been done to death, the different types of mountain bike (XC, AM, DH, Enduro etc), the plethora of gear combo's and got know's what other things that all claim to be taking the sport and technology further forward due to their development and R&D teams, why not do the same with wheel sizes?? They jumped on the 29" thing, there was some people/quarters that didn't take to them too well, maybe it was too much of a jump, so now the focus on 27.5.

Its all B-lox. Ride what you've got and enjoy it, and if you're shopping for a new bike, buy what you like. There isn't that much difference between different bikes of similar genre's, so why not choose your bike on something as subjective as its your favourite brand, its a colour you like, its the bike your biking hero rides etc. Its as good a reason as any.

Its all B-lox. Ride what you've got and enjoy it, and if you're shopping for a new bike, buy what you like. There isn't that much difference between different bikes of similar genre's, so why not choose your bike on something as subjective as its your favourite brand, its a colour you like, its the bike your biking hero rides etc. Its as good a reason as any.

Of course , the colour or make is far more important than how it rides isn't it .

Singlespeed_Shep - Member
You believe pros don't ride what they're paid to ride?
You'll sell more race bikes winning races.

I doubt that - any evidence?

And do you actually believe wheel size can make the difference to win a race?

Hey Northwind, what about your 15mm axle analogy? I liked that one.

You can tell I've read too many of these threads can't you 🙂

I'd suggest looking very carefully at the 'warranty' and real world example of 'warranty claims' (easily found on the internet, usually as complaints..) when choosing a "brand"

typically, the large brands with good distributors will offer timely warranty, the smaller brands with not-so-good distributors, not so...

cynic-al - Member

Singlespeed_Shep - Member
You believe pros don't ride what they're paid to ride?
You'll sell more race bikes winning races.

I doubt that - any evidence?

And do you actually believe wheel size can make the difference to win a race?

Are you suggesting that advertising doesn't work .

To your other question are you suggesting that given a constant power and skill factor that bikes of all 3 normal MTB wheel sizes will cover a cross country MTB course in exactly the same time ?

To your other question are you suggesting that given a constant power and skill factor that bikes of all 3 normal MTB wheel sizes will cover a cross country MTB course in exactly the same time ?

pretty much, one will be a bit faster in one part of a course another in a different part. Worst case you put people off racing because they don't have the right kit... Is that really the way forward? For all the UCIs stupid ideas the one good idea was to try and control the road bike arms race.

http://reviews.mtbr.com/picking-the-perfect-enduro-bike-which-wheel-size-is-right-for-you

To your other question are you suggesting that given a constant power and skill factor that bikes of all 3 normal MTB wheel sizes will cover a cross country MTB course in exactly the same time ?

It's been proven time and time again that dependant on the course / rider that either 26 or 29 has advantages and disadvantages. And 650b remains the best of both or a compromise of the two, depending on your view. Designers are building out some of the 29er disadvantages ( for example by reducing chain stay length to reduce wheelbase) to mimic the ride qualities of 26 yet keep the 29 advantages in (ie less effort in continual rolling motion).

If I don't have a decent choice of 26" wheeled bikes when I next replace my mountain bike the industry will be losing my business.

Goal post moving bar stewards 😉

P.S. That cynic-al link.....I still don't get this 'enduro' stuff. There are two sorts of mountainbike, cross country and downhill.

Marketing has been causing bother since this sport became popular!

roverpig - Member

Hey Northwind, what about your 15mm axle analogy? I liked that one.

I wasn't feeling ranty enough 😆

If I don't have a decent choice of 26" wheeled bikes when I next replace my mountain bike the industry will be losing my business

So presumably you've not bought a new TV since CRTs became unavailable? You'd essentially give up a hobby because you cant find exactly the right thing...

(unless I've missed some sarcasm 😳

This thread is 15 days late

aracer - Member
This thread is 15 days late

I'd says it's a month and a half early.

Why do people insist on saying 27.5 when a 650b rim is actually 27.1in?

glasgowdan - Member
Why do people insist on saying 27.5 when a 650b rim is actually 27.1mm?

😆

The best thing i ever did to my (26") xc bike was put lighter, stiffer wheels on it.

People don't, manufacturers do.

sam3000 - Member
The best thing i ever did to my (26") xc bike was put lighter, stiffer wheels on it

Snap. As well as some carbon upgrades, I now have some crests with Nic/Ralph's tubeless for racing, and will use my 'Ringles at all other times. I reckon it's pretty quick (in the right hands 😉 ) but I'm sure so will be along in a minute to tell me why a lighter 26er isn't as good as something else.

559mm vs 584mm...

25mm, 1 inch in it...

The thing is a 2.25" tyre on 559 rim is more like 26.5" than 26" add an inch, et voilà you can call it [I]27.5[/I], but let's not forget most 26" wheels exceed their stated size by a wee bit.

So like for like the profile its +12.5mm radially, that's it. Its not a quantum leap in bicycle wheel technology really, 650b isn't a [i]new[/i] standard its a pretty old one that's only just being applied to the MTB mass market now in a pretty cynical attempt to bump the revenue streams...

But it's not a "Bad" thing necessarily, TBH I'm past really giving a shit, when I eventually do need a new bike I will probably buy a 650b wheeled one if they really have replaced 26" by then, and I can see me putting 26" wheels on a 650b frame to liven things up a shade maybe...

TBF MTBers are a pretty fickle bunch of magpie, carpark bitches, constantly attracted to new and shiny things irrespective of any real benefits being demonstrated, you can forgive the various companies for expecting us to jump on yet another band waggon. Did customers really ask for it? Of course not, but say it forcefully and often enough and I'm sure people will start to believe...

At least there will still be MTBs in years to come...

Kryton57 - Member

To your other question are you suggesting that given a constant power and skill factor that bikes of all 3 normal MTB wheel sizes will cover a cross country MTB course in exactly the same time ?

It's been proven time and time again that dependant on the course / rider that either 26 or 29 has advantages and disadvantages. And 650b remains the best of both or a compromise of the two, depending on your view. Designers are building out some of the 29er disadvantages ( for example by reducing chain stay length to reduce wheelbase) to mimic the ride qualities of 26 yet keep the 29 advantages in (ie less effort in continual rolling motion).

Strange how you used the terms best of both but not worst of both , not very balanced in my view . Anyway I'm a bit confused are you saying that they would all cover the course in exactly the same time or do you think that possibly one wheelsize would be faster than the others , or one slower than the others if you like?

559mm vs 584mm...

25mm, 1 inch in it...

And 622mm - which is only 2.5" bigger than a 26 rim. The three sizes should either be 26, 27 & 28.5 or 26.5, 27.5 and 29. Or more sensibly forget the tyre height variable and call them what they really are: 22", 23" and 24.5" rims.

Incidentally my 650B front tyre measures 28.5" 😛

I will probably buy a 650b wheeled one if they really have replaced 26" by then, and I can see me putting 26" wheels on a 650b frame to liven things up a shade maybe

That makes absolutely no sense whatsoever based on your assessment that the difference is inconsequential.
Or maybe you're joking. I can't tell because if you are, it's not funny.

Ramsey Neil - Member

Strange how you used the terms best of both but not worst of both , not very balanced in my view

Fyi:
[i]And 650b remains the best of both or a compromise of the two[/i]

Anyway I'm a bit confused are you saying that they would all cover the course in exactly the same time or do you think that possibly one wheelsize would be faster than the others , or one slower than the others if you like?

No, I stated that it'd been proven or perhaps at documented a lot of times that all the wheels sizes have different advantages or disadvantages and there are lots of variations per "course" which would determine the decision about which you'd use.

IMO, the industry has given the pro's another mechanical element to have to choose from strategically for the win, but for the lay person who can only afford one bike, has probably confused the issue prior to providing any clarity of how to make the "choice" of wheel size at purchase time. Things are slowly improving as experience of riding the wheel sizes get greater

esher shore - Member 
Specialized certainly have the "mid size" wheel coming out sooner than you think...Sea Otter Race in the USA is where we will see their popular trail and enduro bikes with this wheel size

Out of interest, will that be to replace the 29 or 26 models from the current range?

I will probably buy a 650b wheeled one if they really have replaced 26" by then, and I can see me putting 26" wheels on a 650b frame to liven things up a shade maybe

That makes absolutely no sense whatsoever based on your assessment that the difference is inconsequential.
Or maybe you're joking. I can't tell because if you are, it's not funny.

Simmer down Treacle...

All I'm saying is, yes there is a difference, it's not as significant as those flogging 650b wheeled MTBs would have you believe but there you go, the "New" MTB wheel standard isn't such a terrible thing...

And I see nothing all that odd in the idea of maybe trying out 26" wheels in a 27.5" frame, it'll be 12.5mm lower to the ground, that's about it, it's basically "Backwards compatible" I have in the distant past used 24" wheels on bikes intended to take 26" wheels, it was quite fun TBH and nobody got hurt...

Re-use your "Old" 26" wheels for uplift days and rufty tuffty riding, buy some posh new 27.5" wheels for General trail riding and that 3% improvement in rolling resistance, not exactly [I]Kerrazy[/I] now is it?

cookeaa - Member

And I see nothing all that odd in the idea of maybe trying out 26" wheels in a 27.5" frame, it'll be 12.5mm lower to the ground, that's about it

Which is quite a big deal tbf.

Nah, it'll be fine 😉

But there must be some co-ordination between different businesses in the industry to make this happen. Is there some kind of bike illuminati or do businesses just copy the big players like Specialized?

I didn't get an invite 😥

Will be riding/racing my 26" steel hardtail again this season 😉

I didn't get an invite

Neither did the bike shop I worked in at the time.

Bikeind did, I'm not sure if he went though, what with being flown to shimano to test all manner of [s]bullshit[/s] new stuff.

ormal Man - Member
esher shore - Member
Specialized certainly have the "mid size" wheel coming out sooner than you think...Sea Otter Race in the USA is where we will see their popular trail and enduro bikes with this wheel size
Out of interest, will that be to replace the 29 or 26 models from the current range?

They have virtually no 26in bikes in their current range to replace.

^ there is a 26er in both Stumpy and Enduro range.

Replacing those with 650b, which could be forced by market / supply of components is very different to the big S stepping away from some 29ers.

That was where I was going with my question. One step at a time 😉

spesh are going 650b next year too!

Most knowledgeable people seem to think that acceptance of 650 will come at the expense of 26in wheels not 29in .

Ramsey Neil - I agree.

That wasn't what was being alluded too as the direction Spesh were taking though, hence my question / reasoning.

Some interesting views from the industry on the whole wheel size debate in the latest Switchback mag.

There is no such thing as the correct wheel size, there are only good and bad bikes.

Industry's gonna pump out what maximises profit, that usually means copying other brands to prevent significant product differentiation.

More sales due to new wheels size ? better wheelsize.

There is no such thing as the correct wheel size, there are only good and bad bikes.

Well it's taken us about 2 years to get here, but hooray!

Do your research, make a short list of bikes. Go and try em, have a decent test ride and taking into consideration your riding style, most ridden areas and what you like the most select a bike and buy it.

Go out and ride and enjoy.

Wheel size shouldn't matter, follow the above and whatever bike you end up with will have the right wheels.

All depends what you are looking for I reckon.

There's definitely some evidence to suggest that at high level Enduro racing (I am only going to comment on Enduro as I know nothing about XC), 650B does seem to be faster "overall" for a given rider. BUT is the faster 650B bike faster due to the wheels or advancement in suspension/geometry? I guess Nico/Jerome could comment better than I can here - they might be able to feel something discernible that they can put down to the wheels.

For a normal (i.e. outside of EWS top 50) rider, I'd argue that to get faster, rather than £5k on a new bike, maybe wax £700 on some carbon wheels (LB or similar), shed a few bits of non essential weight, go 1x, fit better brakes, then spend £200 on a specific skills course and £100 or so on something like James Wilson's strength coaching programme.

I'd be willing to bet the less cool option of making small bike tweaks and improving fitness & skill would grossly outperform the "new bike" magic bullet for most if not all of us............

Sorry "industry" (if there is such a thing).

🙂

did anyone watch that program on placebos last night?

are the benefits of 650b real? or a product of your subconcious liking a new toy?

Speaking as someone thats manufacturing 650b bikes, I can tell you why we decided to go 650b...

When I was designing our first bike (mostly in my head admittedly) I was weighing up the benefits of 26 vs 29. 29 clearly has a number of benefits over 26 in terms of raw a to b performance, but it compromises in alot of ways. I decided to take a look at 650b. It was a pain to get a bike set up but having done it I found 1 key thing; it rode like a 26er. Thats not me saying that 27.5 is much better than a 26 - Im saying 27.5 is very similar to a 26. So similar I challenge you to find the difference in real life use.

Im sure many people are thinking 'a-ha, you see someone who makes them says they are no different'. Thats only half the story. Human perception is a weird thing, I cant tell the exact physics of a bike when I ride it, only how it 'feels'. To me they 'feel' the same. But, dare I say it I smashed a few strava times, had a blast and really enjoyed my first 650b experience. I described it to others as riding a 26 with better tyres; a bit more grip, a bit less rolling resistance, and bit better in every way.

Then you look at the physics, and the 29er experience. The physics and 29er experience tell us that big wheels = faster rolling. Big wheels = better small bump compliance. Thats undeniable. Therefore by reason 27.5 has some of that too.

If you can squeeze a little bit of that 29er benefit out of a 27.5 wheel without killing the 26 feel, you're in a good place IMHO. It also has some nice geometry benefits too. I was as surprised as everyone with the speed that the industry shifted to 27.5, but not surprised it did. No doubt the cost of retooling is surpassed by the sales of 'new size' bikes, so its a boon for many manufacturers, but I don't think its cynical, at least not from my viewpoint.

Maybe we should have gone 27, maybe 28 is the perfect size. We'll probably never know. Until then if that ever happens, 650b is here to stay.

and another member of the MTB "industry" trying 26er/650b/29er in back to back said that 650b doesn't have the rollover of 29er, doesn't quite have the same nimbleness and acceleration of 26er, etc.

still the only reviewer that I've seen saying that it *also* inherits the compromises of 26/29, and doesn't only inherit the best bits of both.

several magazine reviews this time last year had already written off 26. were calling it outdated. this time last year there were basically 0 bikes readily available in 650b, no hope hoops, a couple of tyres (but not in the favourite profiles). so... how many mag reviewers were paid? and how many reviewed that way knowing that promoting 650b would get them more bikes?

so, now some 650b are available. still only seen 1 on the trails. When I go out for a ride on sunday, I wager that every single bike I see out there will be one of those outdated, legacy, archaic 26ers, thathas none of the 650b plus points 😉

Which is quite a big deal tbf.

Is it though? If they were reserved as your cheep/rough/trashable wheels then big tyres would be better. So say you had a 650b frame with 2.3 tyres, but wide enough stays for 2.8 or so. You could ride normal trails all week then do an uplift at the weekend with big tyres without altering the geometry.

[quote=benpinnick ]Speaking as someone thats manufacturing 650b bikes
...
Maybe we should have gone 27

It appears you did

It appears you did

Depends on your point of view I guess. '27.5' is a bit of a cheat, but also true. One school of thought says call it 27 because thats as inaccurate but in the same way as 26 and 29, another school of thought says 27.5 is right so why follow a misleading standard? I think I would agree that 27.5 is a label made up by a few companies to make you think its half way between the 26 and 29er though! I personally prefer 650b as it doesn't have that confusion.