[Closed] What's the point in Di2 and eTap

Try it and you won't want to go back to mechanical.
Allows you to fit extra shifters for sprinting or climbing. Same force needed no matter where you are on the block or chainrings?. No cables to get gunged up. Internal cable routing is far easier and can be much more integrated. Gears can be programmed so the shifting can be completely customised. Easier to shift for kids, people with small/weak hands, people with disabilities.

Charging is so infrequent and so quick that it's just not an issue. 45 minutes from empty to full charge and even that only needs doing once every 2500km.

It's quite clever, genuinely lovely to use and shifting doesn't degrade over time like it does with cables. I'm still using cables though as it's way out of my price range 🙂

It is quite amazing. Wasn't convinced and 3000k into a Di2 bike I am disappoint when I go back to cables. Simple, works, easy, better.

Crazy-legs +1

It's just better. It's not life changing, but it's very good indeed. Missing the climbing shifter on my second bike, but no spare ports on the disc STIs. 🙁

What's a climbing shifter?

Surprised no-one mentioned self trimming mech, no more noise or skipping as cable stretches.

Overpriced though, so i'm still in cable land.

Just try it. Do you need it no. I'm not convinced I need it for MTB. Road, yes.

It's no better it's just better.
That's what some one told me and I didn't understand until I got di2 myself. Makes perfect sense now.

What's a climbing shifter?

Remote shifter that goes on the tops.

+1 for it being very nice to use.

It is nice

You know when you've just recabled and indexed your mechanical stuff?
It's like that. All the time. And "magic" front trimming.

And "zzzzzt"

If you swap rear wheels or use a direct drive trainer, does Di2 automatically tweak the gear indexing so it still shifts perfectly? On my cable set up I have to tweak the cable adjusters if I swap wheels or stick it on a direct drive trainer to get perfect shifting.

(road groupset) No, you have to do that "manually" but it's a 1 minute job

The ease of shifting particularly with the front mech is fab. It sounds trivial but when you are rinsed it's a winner. The zzzzzzt too.

It's just so smooth. Going up climbs last year in the Picos. Every time my mate changed on his cable gears, you could hear the normal clunk. Every time I changed, zzzzt. And if anything gets out of line, you can adjust as you are riding. When I came to buy a gravel bike this year it was the one pre-requisite; it had to have Di2.

Climbing shifter:

[img] [/img]

You know those rides where you get so tired and cold that you physically can't shift the front mech without trying to do it with two hands on the lever and risk crashing?

I wish I'd had eTap for those.

As everyone else has said, it's just that little bit better all the time and just works. Plus I can do multiple downshifts while braking with my left hand and indicating right.

New UCI regs for TT bikes have pretty much mandated electronic shifting to remain competitive. The +10cm rule from pads to tip of shifters or top of extensions allows for electronic shifting in a mantis position that you can't do with manual shifters. Similarly, the 75cm is from BB to tip of shifters or extensions, so you can be more stretched out with electronic shifters.

You won't see the pros riding manual shifting TT bikes now.

Is it that the pinnacle.of cable tech has been reached and filtered down to the likes of 105 etc and so the manufacturers needed to try and make something more exclusive?

With di2 or etap is the shifting under load better? Do you have to ease off? Reason I ask is that on my 105 I just cant get a clean upshift when climbing.

With di2 or etap is the shifting under load better?

Miles

are we talking exclusively road bikes here?

I have only gone for it on the road. Price more than anything. Road stuff lasts where as my stuff can meet a premature demise.

It's good, not life changing but then neither are many of the other small improvements as you move up the heirarchy of kit quality. For me it is the constant performance, no cable wear or friction and lightness of touch. However, I know people do prefer the more connected feel of cables.

What I don't understand is why, given the opportunity for miniaturisation, all the electronic stuff so massive and ugly? e.g. Those climb shifters shown above or the junction boxes that you have to have cluttering up your stem.

Also, some of the prices are just ridiculous. The clearest example is SRAM blips which are switches on the end of a bit of wire yet somehow cost £70 a pair.

I'm sure the shifting is brilliant, but for me there's also something about cycling being an entirely human powered and operated endeavour.

The climb shifters are optional (I didn't bother) and you can use the sprint shifters (little dots that go on the drops) if it really bothers you that much. The junction boxes actually do a decent job of keeping the wiring fairly neat too. Without it there would be a lot of flapping around

Also, some of the prices are just ridiculous. The clearest example is SRAM blips which are switches on the end of a bit of wire yet somehow cost £70 a pair.

Di2 charger cable (so litterally, just a wire, but with a proprietary connector...) is £75...

I'm sure the shifting is brilliant, but for me there's also something about cycling being an entirely human powered and operated endeavour.

I assume you have a dynamo light, front and rear?

Fan of the road stuff, not so much the mtb, mainly as I'm running 1x, but also because the shifter feels cheap because of the dead movement before the click of the switch, that doesn't exist with the road stuff. I get why they've done it, but I don't like it.

dead movement before the click of the switch, that doesn't exist with the road stuff. I get why they've done it, but I don't like it

It's not the throw, it's that there is zero resistance, feels like play. Eurgh..

Oh, are you talking about the road stuff?

yeah, road. I think I'd really like a cm or so of throw with a switch at the end of that

It took me about 6 mounts to finally "get" Di2 on one of my road bikes. It's good , very good but I still like mechanical sram red/ force for the feel.

The Di2 bike is usually used when I'm in the mountains or have lots of climbing as it shifts better under load.

Due to this I went for XTR Di2 which is even more impressive than the road version.
I've been a gripshift user for 20 years due to not likeing shimano shifters, but Di2 if brilliant in synchro mode and 1x11.

Yes, the mechs are a bit big and ugly but meh, small price to pay.

What I don't understand is why, given the opportunity for miniaturisation, all the electronic stuff so massive and ugly?

Also, personally, i don't think tiny electronics would stand up too well to the rigours of bad weather/cx use and being thrown down the road occasionally. Or the average LBS "mechanic", who round here don't seem to have the finesse of touch to even do up an octalink crank bolt without damaging something. So a tiny connecter, into a tiny device. Yeah, thats going to end well.

Been riding Di2 on a gravel bike recently, an Arkose with XT 1x11 Di2 driven by sprint shifts on Hylex hydro brake hoods. First time I've used it properly for a while on a bike format I'm familiar with. I really like it, it's just easy. Shifts are smooth, quick and take no movement or effort.

Would I set up my own 'main' bike with it, probably not. But that's just my preference for simple and low costs to replace. If someone else was paying I would, I think there's real advantages - particularly for bikes ridden long distances, when tired or cold etc. It'd be a no for a touring bike abroad though.

I know enough people that do use it all winter to trust the electronics, the only real issue is replacing any damaged parts. I've only written off 3 rear mechs in crashes/ rock crunches in the last dozen years though, not sure it's a major concern - done more expensive and regular damage to fork stanchions.

Yeah I'm not fussed on the MTB, mainly because it's 1x11. That said... I've not used the front mech on my road bike in at least 6 weeks 😕

Yeah I'm not fussed on the MTB, mainly because it's 1x11. That said... I've not used the front mech on my road bike in at least 6 weeks

I do all my riding in the 53T as well.
😉

dood, even Quintana was on a 56 the other day 🙄

I have di2 on my mtb. It's a Niner sir9 which I have as a fully rigid SS in the winter and I thought it would be quicker/easier to have di2 for the change to 1*11. So far I have been impressed with the system, it shifts effortlessly and accurately and the option of holding the shifter down and it shifting quickly across the block is great for race situations. When the time comes to change the roadie I think I'll be going for electronic shifting, too.

I assume you have a dynamo light, front and rear?

Nope. And I have a GPS and power meter on my bike too, but none of those are related to making it go. To my mind, it should be like sailing. You can have electronic gadgets for navigation and performance measurement, but all controls have to be manual.

Tiny tiny buttons might be ok on a phone, but when you are breathing through your arse and have thick gloves on, big buttons are good/better.

The tiny tiny button I embedded into my shifter to act as a remote for my light works just fine even with my thickest winter gloves, has survived three years of year-round use on my commuter so far, and looks a heck of a lot neater than any of the electronic shifting buttons I've seen.

If I was cynical, I'd say the first generation of this stuff was deliberately on the big and bulky side, so there's an incentive to upgrade when some neater stuff comes out. I think I saw recently that Shimano are making a junction box that will fit inside the handlebars.

One feature that I would be interested in is ANT+ buttons on the shifters that I could use to operate my GPS. As I understand it, this is possible but only with Dura Ace shifters. Shame this side of stuff isn't trickling down faster given how cheap the required electronics are.

Shame this side of stuff isn't trickling down faster given how cheap the required electronics are.

Indeed, I appreciate they have to recoup their development costs, but the markup on the electronic parts is crazy considering the minimal cost of the electronics.
It wouldn't surprise me if the internals of an electronic shifter were cheaper to make than a mechanical one.

In 3300km I think I have had one mis-shift with Di2 on the road bike. In terms of maintenance, apart from charging, I trimmed the front mech like an 8th of a turn and that's it. Auto-trimming of front mech is great. It probably prolongs the life of chains and frankly it's almost fit and forget. Apparently, there is a 'limp mode' in the rare event of a battery running down which immobilises the front mech as that uses the most juice. I agree about the progress in cable controlled gears but I'm still enjoying the Di2 more.

Di2 on my race bike (road)... changing gear while sprinting... oh my gosh.
Sram Red on my TT bike... changing gear in both hand positions... swoon.

Can you set the road DI2 up so that it auto shifts the front depending on where you are at the back? I think they brand it as synchro shift on the mtb.

Yes. With the new release of ultegra and DA.

I would love to try di2 gearing but the price is just mind boggling. I have always looked for it on ebay etc for years in the hope of a bargain but it still commands a top price. I thought there were rumours of a 105 di2 system coming out?

Thanks for all the responses. I'm interested to try it.

Would you go for an Ultegra di2 over a dura ace mechanical is now the question? as both groupsets can be had for about £900

100% yes.

Personally I'd wait.

New Ultegra is immanent [url= http://road.cc/content/tech-news/221907-new-shimano-ultegra-groupset ]Shimano 6900?[/url]

[i]May [/i]have an influence on 6800 prices?

Mark Beaumont uses Di2 on his mega rides

I do all my riding in the 53T as well.

Wasn't a humble brag, actually a bit of a realisation more than anything, no hills in London, which is basically where I've been doing all my riding lately. Clearly I need Di2 on the MTB if that's my sole justification to myself!

Would you go for an Ultegra di2 over a dura ace mechanical is now the question?

Di2 all day long personally.

I've had Di2 XTR on my Dune for just over 18months. It's been hammered everywhere from the Alps to Swinley, and it's still working fine. Probably only had to charge it 6 or 8 times i'd guess in all that time. It also waved the rear mech when i clouted it against a large rock in Les Arcs last year, 1 button press, system reset, and off i rode again (with a std mech at the least i would have had to re-adjust the cable and probably bent the mech / hanger)

Can DI2 be fitted to a normal bike with iternal cable routing?

I ask as my Canyon frame was sold in DI2 and mechanical versions

Of course Sram Red would alleviate this issue..but a bit more pricey

45 minutes from empty to full charge and even that only needs doing once every 2500km.

Can't believe you lot are surprised by the pricing - have you looked at how much bikes/parts cost these days? Its a hand over fist money fest, and we are the mugs that buy it.
It's not like they can charge less for Di2 than mechanical Ultegra/Dura-Ace is it?.. marketing guys would have a heart attack, poor sods.

Its a hand over fist money fest, and we are the mugs that buy it.

There is always the choice not to hand over money unless you feel its good value. Just need to flex the willpower muscle a bit.

I can see the point of it if you are using a 2x set up. The idea that you can ride with 1 shifter and it take care of when to change chainrings, trim the front mech etc is appealing. Im less convinced on a 1x set up.

Can DI2 be fitted to a normal bike with iternal cable routing?

It depends. You can always fit it somehow, but the elegance of the solution depends on the design of the frame. I've just fitted Di2 to a frame which had internal routing, but was designed for the external Di2 battery. I wrapped the battery in pipe lagging and crammed it down the seat tube, then had very little space around the BB shell for the junction box. All went in eventually though, and shouldn't really need to come back out again.

Worst case would be cables that were completely 'guided' through the frame, then you'd not be able to get the wires in the right place easily. You really do need access around the BB shell - up the seat tube, downtube and RH chainstay ideally.

Would you go for an Ultegra di2 over a dura ace mechanical is now the question? as both groupsets can be had for about £900

I've had Ultegra Di2 for a few years on my Giant Defy and do like it but bought a 2nd hand Giant TCR with mechanical Di2 more recently and mostly ride that happily enough so I wouldn't choose to pay more for Di2 and would get Dura Ace given the choice.

Giant TCR with mechanical Di2

Mechanical Dura Ace presumably...?

Would you go for an Ultegra di2 over a dura ace mechanical is now the question

Dura Ace every time. DA9000 is sublime. The pinnacle of mechanical shifting. And it is shiny 😀

I'd choose Di2 for my next TT bike for position gains - in fact I like eTAP as it is wire free, but for normal road, I love my DA9000 - which to be honest, shifts not very different to my Ultegra 6800. But it is shiny.

Mechanical Dura Ace presumably...?

Ha ha, I was concentrating on work...I meant Ultegra.

Ha ha, I was concentrating on work

I'm intrigued to try it on the MTB even though its a 1x. Spoken to a few Ultra riders, and at length to 1, and he spec'd DI2 for his TCR bike last year expecting nerve damage and loss of function in his hands. You can always find the power/ function to press a button, but moving a shifter is more problematic.

I'd like to try it, I get a lot of hand pain from an old injury, but I guess if I can make RS crappy reverb button to work I can handle a shifter.

Like the OP when I first read about it I laughed, "what's the point?" swap a simple cable operated thing for a couple of motors, batteries and all that headache and how long before it needs charging eh? The day I say "sorry boys, can't make it today, I've forgotten to charge my gears" I'd die a little inside and why? to make a little lever a bit easier to push.

But I've learned, that's not really the point, it's a *perfect* shift, millimetre perfect every time, a smoothness you can't get from mechanical and it can do cool things like trim mechs for perfect smoothness and all that.

Ultimately though, I wouldn't buy one - the cost for one, it's food out of the kids mouth for something I don't need, but more importantly than that, I work all day staring at a couple of monitors, my life revolves around a 5" mini computer we still laughably call a 'phone' I'm fairly certain 9-5 it's made the leap and now it works me not the other way around - getting out on my bike is a mechanical respite, I know d12 doesn't have e-mail access or bluetooth and it's not like all that stuff just because it's got a couple of CPUs in it, but you need to employ mechanical sympathy on a bike, you have to consider the way things work, not just press this and expect that - my Son struggles, he puts it in 2nd and expects 2nd gear, I try to explain you can't shift unless you're pedalling, you have to ease it in sometimes or it will skip or sometimes you have to shift a bit far to get it to engage and then take it a gnat's back let it sit sweet - you can tell it's doesn't compute for a Lad used to the digital age, it makes no sense to him at all.

Nice sentiment. I like that.

You should get an mgb gt to drive at the weekends 🙂

I know d12 doesn't have e-mail access or bluetooth

It's got bluetooth now 🙂

How does SRAM eTap compare to Shimano Di2 and Campagnolo EPS?

I see the full SRAM eTap gruppo is about £1,000 cheaper than Di2 and EPS...?

How does SRAM eTap compare to Shimano Di2

I've got both, eTap and 9170 - only issue i had switching between the two was the shifter layout, prefer the eTap, right down, left up, but 5 minutes with the eTube app and i sorted out the Shimano buttons

Shimano shifts better on the front

I've only used eTap but my riding buddy on Di2 has knocked his shifters a couple of times and pulled the wires out. I've seen cables break for one other person and heard that some pre-built bike don't have much slack in the cables.

So, clearly eTap with no cables is much better! 🙂

Honest answer, I'm sure they are both great.

my riding buddy on Di2 has knocked his shifters a couple of times and pulled the wires out.

Genuinely not sure how prone they are to being pulled out. I know on the bike I was using (hire bike) I was ever so careful at first as the idea of snagging a cable and popping it out of the rear mech was terrifying (especially as it wasn't my bike and I had no real idea of how to put it back and reprogram the gears!)

Fortunately it all seemed pretty robust and the system has been used for long enough by the pros in road and CX that I doubt it's too much of an issue.

The day I say "sorry boys, can't make it today, I've forgotten to charge my gears" I'd die a little inside and why

To be fair, it charges enough for a ride in 2 minutes!

Want to try Di2 on my 1x11 MTB, but can't see a kit to buy on any of the websites? Do you just buy Derailleur, shifter and display unit?
[url= http://bike.shimano.com/content/sac-bike/en/home/components11/mountain/xtr-di2/rd-m9050.html ]Derailleur[/url]
[url= http://bike.shimano.com/content/sac-bike/en/home/components11/mountain/xtr-di2/sw-m9050.html ]Shifter[/url]
[url= http://bike.shimano.com/content/sac-bike/en/home/components11/mountain/xtr-di2/sc-m9050.html ]Display unit[/url]

Google has about 10 from where i'm sitting.

https://www.bike-discount.de/en/buy/shimano-xtr-di2-9050-kit-internal-gs-version-1x11-speed-443743

And you'll need battery bits and a wiring harness to suit.

No, you also need:

- battery
- charger
- wires
- junction box

Edit: beaten by 15 seconds, that'll do the job. Looks to be lacking a junction B box which you'll need with an internal battery though.

Thanks