2016???
When they think they can get away with us mugs paying mega bucks for them!
Trickle down technology seems to be reasonably priced on SLX, no?
A 10 speed - 11-40 Shimano cassette at their usual pricing would dominate the market and there would be no need for all of the silly extender cogs we are all buying up....We dont need 11 speed yet!
Shimano are going backwards at the moment and i love their stuff - run it on all of my bikes but SRAM are mopping the floor with them on the OEM market.
A 10 speed - 11-40 Shimano cassette
Take note Yozo! 😀
A 10 speed - 11-40 Shimano cassette at their usual pricing would dominate the market and there would be no need for all of the silly extender cogs we are all buying up....We dont need 11 speed yet!
^This. Shimano seem to be sitting on their hands of late, I can't get a crankset with a BB30 that comes with chainrings I can actually use. I'm turning very anti-SRAM of late thanks to their sudden obsession with new standards.
I reckon next year's SLX/XT will go 11 speed, with XT Di2.
^This. Shimano seem to be sitting on their hands of late, I can't get a crankset with a BB30 that comes with chainrings I can actually use. I'm turning very anti-SRAM of late thanks to their sudden obsession with new standards.
The problem is, the OEM market is SRAM biased now, I can only see that growing now due to the Fox/RF merger.
I know Shimano is a large company but SRAM must be really hurting their share of the performance market.
Shimano dont seem to have their eyes open either - we are all after an affordable 1x10 11-40 Cassette groupset, an easy task for shimano that they are ignoring.
I can only see that growing now due to the Fox/RF merger.
How so? Fox and Shimano have well-established links, and the only overlap is cranks (and finishing kit if you count Pro). SRAM can sell you everything in one package - fork, gears, (squealy) brakes, transmission and wheels.
2016 is likely. I quite like Shimano's take on 1x11 and they offer a 38T ring up front (thats right isn;t it). I hope that is kept for XT 1x11.
Sod that I need the full fat 11-42T 😳
It would be a nice gesture of they did release a 10spd 11-40/42 cassette, but in the spirit of [i]progress[/i] they'll probably make it 11spd forcing everyone into buying a new shifter (hub?) too.
They have stated that they are not happy with the gaps between cogs that you get in a 10sp 11-40t cassette, haven't they?
I reckon toward the end of the year for XT - guess based on nothing at all.
All bets are off really, as with 9 speed in 1999 and 10 speed in 2011 they did XTR/XT/(S)LX at the same time, so you could instantly mix and match. Obviously with 11 speed they've not.
On the road groupsets they've done one groupset at a time - Dura Ace went 10 speed in 2003, Ultegra in 2004 and 105 in 2005. So if they follow that pattern then it's potentially 2017 before they do SLX.
Shimano won't do a 10 speed 11-40, as with XTR it will be an 11 speed only feature, so then your onto XT and SLX getting 11 speed facelifts...
Possibly available to buy late summer 2016 I reckon, They should start the rumour mill up in spring/summer 2015 if they're going to do it, could be 2017 though, they don't want to rush and knacker sales of current stock, and it all depends on how far down the range SRAM trickle their own big cassettes in the next 12 months are there any X9/X7 10-42 or 11-40 variants on the cards?
Shimano tend to react (slowly) to SRAM these days rather than taking the lead...
My money is on XT 11sp available to buy in Nov this year.
I think the OE market domination by SRAM is about an ability to produce cheap crap quickly and to be flexible enough to do better bulk deals than the more conservative Shimano. I recently decided to build my new bike myself, partly because I had quite a few bits but also because so many of the complete bikes I was interested in came with full SRAM which I just don't get on with and would replace anyway.
i reckon we'll see it later this year, end of summer. as for pricing, 11speed xtr is basically the same as 10 speed xtr was, so i'd expect XT/SLX to come in at the current price points.
I think the OE market domination by SRAM is about an ability to produce cheap crap quickly and to be flexible enough to do better bulk deals than the more conservative Shimano.
Very plausible.
It's a bit galling that Sram groupsets (not my choice) get bundled with Rock Shox suspension (which I do like).
At least it creates a niche for the flexible smaller companies that do allow customers to spec their bikes.
When XT or SLX do come out in 11 speed I'd be willing to bet you can pick up a 1x11 set up (shifter, chain, cassette and mech) for less than Sram will charge you for even their cheapest 11 speed cassette, and you won't need to change freehubs.
I was reading the "new XTR" booklet that came with MBR this morning. I think Shimano are in one of two positions- they are either selling what riders need rather than what they want (which is what I suspect) or they are in another Dual Control situation where they are barking up the wrong tree.
Their biggest point in the leaflet was that they haven't gone 1x 11-42 because the gap between each gear would be too big for them to produce shifting they would be happy with and for riders to have the right gear all the time. I'd agree- I'd rather have less range, and combine it with a dual ring up front if I was unfit, and a smaller gap between gears so I could get my cadence right.
I must say I do sometimes find with XX1 that I'll shift two gears, then regret it, and go back one! The gaps are big, but personally that doesn't bother me on a mountain bike.
crankrider - MemberA 10 speed - 11-40 Shimano cassette at their usual pricing would dominate the market and there would be no need for all of the silly extender cogs we are all buying up....We dont need 11 speed yet!
Nothing silly about an extender- it'd be better to be able to get a factory one but in the absence, it's a great option.
But "we don't need 11 speed" is exactly why Shimano and SRAM will never release a 10-speed 11-42 cassette, they want to sell you 11 speed so they'll create the reason to buy it by limiting 10-speed.
XT and SLX will be along as soon as they think they've scalped all the people who'd choose XT if it existed but will buy XTR while it doesn't
+1My money is on XT 11sp available to buy in Nov this year.
I think we'll see 11 speed XT at this year's Sea Otter as a 2016 group which will actually be available in October/ November 2015.
hub gear with a cassette, that's what we need next!
11-30(ish) 10s cassette for sensible ratio jumps and short cage mechs, with a 2 or 3sp hub* for under-drive and/or over-drive, normal mode being 1:1 direct drive, so any extra losses minimised in normal use.
*hopefully lighter, simpler, less draggy, and more robust than a proper multi-gear hub, and without the excess flappy chain, long cages, clearance issues, and cassette cost of dinner plates at the back. Kind of like Hammershmidt concept but at the back and not as badly executed, would do until proper gearboxes are sorted.
On topic though, I think 11sp will trickle into XT/SLX next year (2016), my bets are on XT and SLX at the same time, rather than road style one group at a time.
SRAM do one already - called the Dual Drive.
yeah but DD3 stuff is urban/commuter/touring territory.
I mean a proper MTB capable solution, with better sealing, decent weight, and compatible axle standards.
Either that or just hurry up and sort gearboxes out properly 🙂
amedias - Member
yeah but DD3 stuff is urban/commuter/touring territory.I mean a proper MTB capable solution, with better sealing, decent weight, and compatible axle standards.
Isn't Hammerschmidt already out there? And nobody liked it?
hub gear with a cassette, that's what we need next!
sram did a commuter one ages ago: dual drive
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sram did a commuter one ages ago: dual drive
See comments about it not transferring over to MTB yet, hub gears have been around for the best part of a century, and have been used on town and commuter bikes for ages, yet (other than Rohloff and arguably Alfine) we still haven't seen much in MTB land.
Isn't Hammerschmidt already out there? And nobody liked it?
HS was a good idea but awkward and clunky in execution
- needed frame mounts (and had clearance issues)
- was draggy
- was heavy
- ran essentially a granny ring as the main drive chainring, not great for longevity
Isn't Hammerschmidt already out there? And nobody liked it?
Because it's heavy and draggy. Like every single hub gear ever!
I really can't see anyone will manage it any time soon, I reckon hub gears (and gearboxes) will remain the preserve of quirky beardy touring types, and hybrid/utility type bikes for some years to come.
What, fundamentally, is wrong with a derailleur system? In your proposed idea amedias you don't even get rid of the mech, so not sure what that would add! There are so many options for drivetrains (crikey XTR caters for virtually every whim by itself!) these days that I don't understand what a two-speed hub gear and a close ratio cassette would actually offer.
my Hope (I may be dreaming here) is that a basic hub gear with only 2 or 3 speeds would not suffer massive drag issues as there would only need to be a single (or 2 for 3sp) planetary, with normal use being direct drive with little or no drag.
You could thereby replicate the full range of a 2x or 3x drivetrain while maintaining compatibility with existing external derailleur drive systems and not have to deal with the (admittedly minor) issues that we are now experiencing with regards to cassette cost, cage length,and clearance, and still reap the benefits of not having to have a front mech, ie: chainline, clearance (frame and ground) etc.
I really can't see anyone will manage it any time soon, I reckon hub gears (and gearboxes) will remain the preserve of quirky beardy touring types, and hybrid/utility type bikes for some years to come.
I think you're bang on with this though, more's the pity.
But [b]if [/b]internal gearboxes ever could get to the point where the drag and weight was comparable to normal derailleur it would be great wouldn't it?
better and extended range, no mechs to bash, no pivots to wear out, no mud issues, no chain retention issues, no clearance issues
amedias - Member
my Hope (I may be dreaming here) is that a basic hub gear with only 2 or 3 speeds would not suffer massive drag issues as there would only need to be a single (or 2 for 3sp) planetary, with normal use being direct drive with little or no drag.You could thereby replicate the full range of a 2x or 3x drivetrain while maintaining compatibility with existing external derailleur drive systems and not have to deal with the (admittedly minor) issues that we are now experiencing with regards to cassette cost, cage length,and clearance, and still reap the benefits of not having to have a front mech, ie: chainline, clearance (frame and ground) etc.
Question is whether all that is actually necessary when you have 1x11 systems that worke well enough for most people.
indeed, but let me have my dream! 😀
1x10 is fine for me for racing < 2hrs, still prefer a double when out for a long one on Dartmoor or at a 24hr race.
And we'll be getting 1x12 before too long... 50T sprocket, anyone? 🙂
I reckon that'll kill of the hub gear idea for some time yet for most people (beardy touring types excepted 🙂 )
But if internal gearboxes ever could get to the point where the drag and weight was comparable to normal derailleur it would be great wouldn't it?
For me, no. I have no issues with a derailleur system whatsoever, and no desire to introduce complexity for the sake of it!
we are all after an affordable 1x10 11-40 Cassette groupset, an easy task for shimano that they are ignoring.
Are we?
my Hope (I may be dreaming here) is that a basic hub gear with only 2 or 3 speeds would not suffer massive drag issues as there would only need to be a single (or 2 for 3sp) planetary, with normal use being direct drive with little or no drag.
Do you mean like this SA hub?
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Most of the riders I go out with are running 1x10 with an expander. I notice the removed 16t big gap but thats it.
Shimano doing all that work on a sideways front mech you need a special frame for, theyve lost the plot. I really think a 1x10 with bigger range would clean up the OEM market but Shimano seem to insist cadence and small gaps is more important. Beginners really struggle getting ther head around using front 7 rear mechs, add a dropper to that and theres just too much going on.
I want 7spd Zee with clutch and big gaps between gears on my DH bike.
I really think a 1x10 with bigger range would clean up the OEM market but Shimano seem to insist cadence and small gaps is more important. Beginners really struggle getting ther head around using front 7 rear mechs, add a dropper to that and theres just too much going on.
Buyers in general struggle with buying a bike with gears they then can't get up hills in. Far more than those who struggle with front mechs. People who don't know are more likely to object to 1x10, people who know what they want can convert to 1x10 for a profit, by the time you've sold the extra bits you don't need.
The 1x obsession is big in the US and the UK, but not so much in Europe and Asia, which are clearly vast markets.
I'm not sure Shimano want to go 1x11, surely they want a 2x11 electronic, which for most people would actually far better. I'm glad someone (Shimano) are sticking up for close ratio cassettes and double chainsets.
As others have said, it's very much a US/UK/Canada thing going 1 x whatever.
The rest of the world think we're mental taking a typical 2 x 10 setup with a great range of gears and limiting ourselves with less gears or playing around with expander cages, aftermarket sprockets, big gaps between gears etc etc...I've only ever lost the chain from the chainset once and that was on a 1 x setup!...never dropped the chain from the front of a double chainset.
I'd consider 11 speed when it trickles down purely to go 2 x 11 and keep even nicer/closer ratios than currently but the whole 1 x craze has passed me by, just not that interested....and I'll always buy Shimano over SRAM!
Yes please... a 10 speed 11-40 XT from Shimano @ £30 and I'll be prepared to go 1x10.
I simply don't understand how they've let that market pass them by.
It's not the market that's passed them by, it's their own perfectionism that prevents them from releasing a 10sp 11-40.
They would have to launch a new rear mech and then you'd get all sorts of incompatibilities that they'd have to explain.
Easier to do it at 11sp time.
njee20 - Member
All bets are off really, as with 9 speed in 1999 and 10 speed in 2011 they did XTR/XT/(S)LX at the same time, so you could instantly mix and match.
9 speed XTR M950 was available in 1996. 9 speed XT didn't appear till M750 in 1999.
10 speed XTR was available in late 2010. 10 speed XT and SLX was shown off in April 2011 (Sea Otter), and not available till late 2011.
I imagine they will do the same this time around.
After-market is a tiny part of Shimano's business. And for all you fretting about them not keeping up with OEM stuff, just look at all the bikes this year that come with Shimano brakes where they had SRAM last year.
9 speed XTR M950 was available in 1996. 9 speed XT didn't appear till M750 in 1999.10 speed XTR was available in late 2010. 10 speed XT and SLX was shown off in May 2011 (IIRC), and not available till late 2011.
M950 was 8 speed, M952 launched in 1999, it was a cosmetic change to the 950 groupset, and made it 9 speed. Along with XT and LX.
All the 10 speed groupsets were MY2011, not saying they were all literally released at exactly the same time, indeed they [url= http://www.bikeradar.com/news/article/new-10-speed-dyna-sys-shimano-xt-and-slx-for-2010-25297/ ]announced XT and SLX[/url] before XTR.
Forgot about the M950/M952 distinction. For some reason I always think the first Olympic XC was on 9 speed.
I don't consider the 10s groupsets to be the same MY, they were available exactly a year apart. Like I said, same this time.
This thread got me thinking I might go 2x11 when I rebuild my bike with XTR cassette and shifters. I then checked the price of the 11sp XTR cassette compared to the 10sp XT and realised 2x10 will be just fine.
[i]This thread got me thinking I might go 2x11 when I rebuild my bike with XTR cassette and shifters. I then checked the price of the 11sp XTR cassette compared to the 10sp XT and realised 2x10 will be just fine. [/i]
It was riding a demo Orange 5 (1x10 c/w Hope T-Rex) that made me realise that while I'd 'decided' that my next bike would be 1x11, in reality it didn't need to be.
Since bought a FS and put 1x10 on with a Hope 30T front and 40T T-Rex works great and will be far cheaper to run (based on destroying 3 rear mechs in 2 years along with wearing out couple of cassettes per year and many chains).
AlexSimon - MemberThey would have to launch a new rear mech and then you'd get all sorts of incompatibilities that they'd have to explain.
Nah, the standard mech actually works almost well enough- it'd only take a small tweak and it's pretty likely they could just run the entire line like that rather than having parallel models. But at worse it'd be no more confusing than short and long cages (which they make more confusing than it should be with their secret codes)
I don't consider the 10s groupsets to be the same MY, they were available exactly a year apart. Like I said, same this time.
Nope, second half of 2010 for all 3 of them...
Edit: although that was the old groupsets, they revamped the groups in 2012, but they were 10 speed before.