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I can't see the point of Alu when I have a 24.1lb Alu bike with 1x11 and all kinds of upgrade investment in it already.
Unless you're aiming for the nat champs jersey or a World Cup podium, I'm gonna suggest that a 24lb bike isn't holding you back that much... The fact that £1500 isn't going to buy you anything lighter off the shelf also tells you there's no point in throwing money at the bike if you want to go faster.
New bikes are great, don't let me stop you from buying one, but I think you'd be far better off keeping your money in your pocket for now and other ways to improve your speed.
Upon reflection, you are probably right.
But I'll answer fife andys post a bit becuase it's therapy and probably worth noting for advice purposes. So fifeandy I've been riding for 20 years socially racing now in my third season. I do have a glass half empty personality trait. I'm quite intensive also which means I tend to google and analyse the crap out of things, so I'd say well educated. I'm training using a mixture of TrainerRoad and weekend club runs. I am however a professional travelling salesman so training is low volume - about 6 hours average - a week, and father of two, and becuase of that I can't / don't commute by bike. I'm 44, racing in Vets. Recently, I dropped off the training and food discipline wagon for a month during a new kitchen install and having to work in Germany for a bit.
I'm not a powerful rider, coming in at 3.44w/kg, but struggle on long drags. I do have a propensity to be able turn big gears on the flat at speed, can sail up short 20m inclines and have 100m sprint hence I started time trial line this year as a secondary thing as I failed in Crits.
My issue now is that I've had a strong winter in terms of numbers via the turbo, coming out above least seasons finishing FTP with no illness at all, the only issue being a lack of long rides due to weather/circumstance on the planned days. I am finishing about the same places now as I was mid/end last season - so in theory there is some improvement.
But I expected top be better in the Reg A races which I'm not. And to cap it all a club colleague in Parent mode and limited mTB experience rocked up on a Spec Stumpy FS and beat me by 5 places (well 10 but I lost 5 after a crash near the end) - also I spied on strava last night and can see he's still done double my miles this year.
With regard to strategy I got that "wrong" perhaps at the weekend - I have a strong starting sprint but can only hold the subsequent power for 5-6 mins before I start to get passed. Last Wednesday I found myself leading the field in a Reg C only to finish 9th. This Sunday I backed off the start and got slammed into a barrier by the back of the pack losing loads of start places.
Re-engaging on the turbo last night was hard but not impossible with TR set at my current FTP, holding 4 X 5min 108% intervals, 2 spinning and 2 at climbing cadence.
I just feel I should be doing better that's all, walking out of regional A's between 25-35 place isn't all that, with respect to other riders that is. I really wanted to be 20-25 place this year. Specifically I'd like that start - a strength - to carry through at least to the end of the first lap without tunnel vision!
<breaths out>
It's not the bike at all, is it... 😐
Why were you doing an interval session the day after a race?
^^ good question that. He knows what he's talking about too.
I have a strong starting sprint but can only hold the subsequent power for 5-6 mins before I start to get passed. Last Wednesday I found myself leading the field in a Reg C only to finish 9th. This Sunday I backed off the start and got slammed into a barrier by the back of the pack losing loads of start places.
Who cares that you get passed? Embrace your fast start (I'd be in contention for a stripy jersey if races were 200m), you're ahead of the bottle neck, and it's up to others to pass you. For XC racing that's a huge advantage.
You didn't FAIL in Crits... you've not FAILED at any of the racing you've done.... you've done pretty well overall.
In simple terms, the guys beating you are stronger, faster fitter, they're not on better bikes, they're not beating you because they have 2lb lighter bikes, they're beating you because they train harder, better, and stronger than you.
Keep the bike, if you REALLY want to do better, train better.
Why were you doing an interval session the day after a race?
Happy to be told I'm wrong, but because I'm racing again Wednesday night and therefore would wish to rest Tuesday, so Monday then is my only chance to ride, I ran out of time hence defaulted to the turbo, but also want every opportunty to build some strength / fitness...
Embrace your fast start (I'd be in contention for a stripy jersey if races were 200m), you're ahead of the bottle neck, and it's up to others to pass you. For XC racing that's a huge advantage.
Yes, I plan to revert to Plan A after Sundays's issues.
In simple terms, the guys beating you are stronger, faster fitter, they're not on better bikes, they're not beating you because they have 2lb lighter bikes, they're beating you because they train harder, better, and stronger than you.
Yes you are right and this is probably why I need a coach - because of my wandering whimsical thinking-style, I need to be told/whacked into realism regularly I feel.
Although I'm hardly what you'd call any good a this kind of thing, surely it's sensible to focus on what you're good at and go with that.
Didn't you get some decent results at 12/24hr kinda stuff?
I find it more satisfying to 'race' longer marathon & Endurance type events than XC, primarily as I can achieve at least mid-table clogger status consistently, more so than traditional XC where at Regional A level I'm more like lower mid table.
Yes, 16th Vet 24h and 3rd Pair 12h last year.
I don't want to sound ungrateful, I just want to be doing better at XCO, and as a rider per se.
Do what they ^^ say then, spend the money on a coach and not another bike.
.............. or accept your fate / genetics / time / financial constraints and be happy with your lot and a fleet of shiny bikes.
or accept your fate / genetics / time / financial constraints and be happy with your lot
Thats what I'm finding difficult, the last five words aren't really part of my DNA in any perspective of my life... 😀
Kryton57 - Member
or accept your fate / genetics / time / financial constraints and be happy with your lot
Thats what I'm finding difficult, the last five words aren't really part of my DNA in any perspective of my life...
In that case, get your debit card out and attempt to achieve it 🙄
I think you've mis-understood me; I'm listening to the advice. My mindset is of a nature not "to be happy with my lot" in general - that's how I'm wired I'm afraid.
It doesn't mean I'm going to leap out an buy a bike, it means I've read the above and need to decide how to move forward, albeit by more reading about training plans & applying it religously or more likely being coached Sept-March and see if that helps with next years development.
Unless you have huge reserves of natural ability it really does come down to training. You can train smart and do the right types of session but I reckon it's mostly about consistency and quality volume. Which is most probably why the new guy who's done double your miles is beating you.
If you want to move up from top 30 to top 20 you'll have to change something. Probably improving consistency and upping volume and getting in a solid winter of work. But given nature of your jobs, kids, family, life, travelling, etc. maybe that's not realistically achievable.
A coach would help get the most out of what you have available, but if you can't commit the time then it's probably not worth the expense.
I do ok at the moment as I have a fairly flexible job (and no commute!) that I can fit around family and training. If I didn't have that then my racing targets would be a lot more modest (TBH I'm not sure I'd even bother!)
Going back to the original question..... 😆
I have had a Grand Canyon 5.9 for a couple of months now and it is rapid. Not twitchy, comfy. I love it !
Accept that you'll never be better than mediocre, competing against other mediocre riders and examine why you feel the need to "race" anyway?
It sounds like you need to speak to a sports psychologist.
I think the scotroutes post is a bit sad, if no one but those gunning for glory raced it would be a sad state of affairs. Racing isn't about just coming first. Plus I have a load of mediocre results to my name but a few really good results, sometimes things just come together and it's waiting for those times.
I like posts like these, it only confirms it's not really about a great bike... For me xc shows that more than anywhere else.
Think if you don't want to race great but also you can get a lot out of racing even if it's for 22nd place.
If I didn't have that then my racing targets would be a lot more modest (TBH I'm not sure I'd even bother!)
This is me!
examine why you feel the need to "race" anyway?
Cos it's fun!
Cos it's fun!
Its also a "reason" to stay fit and healthy. I've always done some kind of sport and hate the feeling of being tired, chubby and lazy whilst watching crap TV and stuffing my face with a McCake.
Its also a "reason" to stay fit and healthy. I've always done some kind of sport and hate the feeling of being tired, chubby and lazy whilst watching crap TV and stuffing my face with a McCake.
What's wrong with you !
😉
? Plenty of us are fit and healthy riding bikes without the need to race.
Doesn't sound like you're enjoying it at all tbh.
Respect your honesty and openness.
If this is your third season racing just now, then you haven't been doing it for long. That's not a criticism at all, just be aware that chances are you'll be racing against people with loads more experience, and that counts for a lot.
You might be able to produce better numbers with a powermeter and a turbo, but that isn't everything and despite what others have said, volume and quality of training isn't everything either. If it was, then the hardest worker with the most ideal physiology would always win, and bike racing would be boring.
Much of XC racing (and crit racing too for that matter) is down to technique, and a common mistake is to confuse this with some kind of god-given natural talent. Experience and a willingness to concentrate on technique, and practice practice practice, can often give more advantage when the gun goes than a full winter of high-intensity turbo-smashing.
IMO there isn't a single panacea that will provide the success you crave - not all the hours in the world to train, not a well-structured training programme, not a 1.5k bike, not +/- 3psi tyre pressure, not a skills coaching course, not a year with a psychotherapist.
What will help is likely to be a bit of a few of these, more and more races under your belt, and taking time to set goals for yourself that are realistic and that won't upset you if you narrowly miss out on them. Some races are great, some are disastrous, most fall somewhere in between and the more you've done, the more you come to see this. This is for fun at the end of the day. If you're not enjoying it (overall that is, I don't mean you have to love every minute) then ultimately it's unlikely to end well.
Good luck.
Kryton - thanks so much for the response - hope it helped you to get that stuff out and written down. I'm very much the same - self coaching, and highly critical of myself - researching/educating myself as much as possible. I actually think this is a good trait if not taken to extremes.
Ultimately, I think mrblobby is on the right track - consistency and volume. To see the results improve significantly you are going to need to bump that W/Kg up - this will give you the sustained speed you are missing.
ac282 has a VERY good point - the only session you should be doing the day after the race is maybe 1hr zone1 recovery - especially if racing mid week - races are HARD, and doing 2 per week will provide all the intensity you need on a total volume of 6hrs.
My advice for the 2nd half of the season would be to sit down and plan to peak/focus on results at a couple of races on courses that you know suit you. Set some realistic goals, and commit to them by writing them down somewhere.
For example Race X, August, Top 33% of field result.
Exactly. Sounds like you've managed to extract all of the fun out of actually riding a bike.richardthird - Member
? Plenty of us are fit and healthy riding bikes without the need to race.
[b]Doesn't sound like you're enjoying it at all tbh.[/b]
It is possible to improve on 6hrs a week. Mileage is utterly irrelevant. A proper targetted training schedule with periodisation, taper and a realistic race schedule will achieve your goals.
I'm not dissimilar but I've spent on coaching and understanding training. Until you do this you are giving yourself a massive handicap. Your race schedule is symptomatic. If you truly give your all on Wednesday it's unlikely you will be able to do a high quality session until Saturday. I doubt a club run is high quality in terms of time in zone.
You also have to decide if 24:12 or xco is your priority and train for one ignoring results in the other.
Doing the same thing time after time and expecting different results is the definition of stupidity. Your Anthem gummed up last year - why would it not this year in the same conditions?
As we had this exact same discussion approx 12 months ago you really should break this cycle.
Ignore the doom mongers, just because they have embraced their inate crapness and are happy to pootle around at the back, doesn't mean you have to.
And there is enjoyment (of a different sort) to getting as much out of your body as is physically possible. As opposed to just putting as much into it as possible.
Get a coach sorted, get a decent one. (Both my best and worst seasons were coached. Bad coaches will muck you up, badly.) And it's been pointed out on several of your threads, your training is all over the place. A coach will help with this.
Use the rest of the 1500 for a training camp. Start negotiating with the wife now. The benefits of a week somewhere hot and sunny with few other interruptions to riding your bike can't be underestimated.
And as an aside, travelling sales.
Do you have opportunity during dead time to train? I know one of my colleagues runs, everywhere. Just finds a local sports centre (showers, changing rooms) then bangs an hour in whenever he can. Before his meetings, after his meetings, between his meetings........ i wish i still had his dedication.
PS my post is meant to be positive!
ghostlymachine makes an interesting point. Spend the cash on a Brompton, chuck it in the back of the car, train when you can 🙂
Use the rest of the 1500 for a training camp. Start negotiating with the wife now. The benefits of a week somewhere hot and sunny with few other interruptions to riding your bike can't be underestimated.
Blimey this would make a huge difference in the middle of winter. Right then Mrs B, I'm off for a week of riding my bike somewhere hot and sunny, leaving you with a 2 and 4 year old, and spending 1500 quid in the process. I think I can guess the reaction 🙂
Take the missus/kids with you.
Ride mornings, kids afternoon.
First, thanks for those that have taken the time with the last page of posts. I appreciate the honesty and the time taken, there's valuable stuff in there.
Re running/other activities - yes I can do this, started doing some running in Germany but succumbed to big meals and free beer, which is also part of my work (social relationship building) - but not an excuse - its ill discipline I know. in fact I was going to run last night as the local park is at the end of my road with a marked-out 1200m paved section around it but deferred to the Turbo as more "cycling specific".
I do think its a little unfair to state my program is haphazard. It is written down, periodized and pretty much goes:
Oct-Dec = Base
Dec-Mar = Build
Mar-May = Speciality XCO or XCM plan / B races
May-July= Maintain / B races
July-Aug- Maintain/rest/ A race (Bonty 24/12)
Aug = Rest (I do use a gym bike or go for socially paced rides but no real exertion)
Sept-Oct = Maintain / ride
I'll be honest and admit I'm pretty clueless about how much rest need after an XCO, I would have said 24-48hrs would be enough.
First up, it seems that you need to relax and enjoy your racing. As long as you can see some improvement I'd be happy. 6 hours a week isn't much, without some natural ability you're not going to be very competitive on that even with top quality coaching, so just get stuck into the racing and enjoy it!
Don't fret about kit, the last races I did (both team 24hrs, so not as serious as XCO) in 2012 were on a 2005 26" trance which weighed about 30lbs, but it had quick tyres, was fun to ride, and I was fit. We were 3rd at SITS and won Oktoberfest in Bristol.
But if you want a new bike for the hell of it (i.e. not to radically improve your results) bikescene have Stumpjumper Expert Carbon World Cup hardtails for a decent price frame only, though 🙂
What do you do as a base? Sorry if you have said already.
I've been doing triathlon training, and a lot of what is being banded about at the moment is the reverse periodization of more intensity/less volume over the winter months then build on this with volume as you get into the spring months. I have done this and just knocked 21 minutes off my previous standard distance tri
Regarding recovery, I would only be putting any intensity back in on a Tuesday or Wednesday after a Sunday race. You are older than me so will probably need to look at the longer end of things.
If I wanted to race again on Wednesday then i would take Monday off and do an easy spin on Tuesday.
I've been doing triathlon training, and a lot of what is being banded about at the moment is the reverse periodization of more intensity/less volume over the winter months then build on this with volume as you get into the spring months.
Depends what you are training for, probably works quite well for a long event like a triathlon...
http://www.joefrielsblog.com/2013/10/reverse-periodization.html
Probably not so well for short high intensity races.
What do you do as a base?
Club rides (not ideal I know), and/or 60-100k Z2 solo road rides.
Regarding recovery, I would only be putting any intensity back in on a Tuesday or Wednesday after a Sunday race. You are older than me so will probably need to look at the longer end of things.If I wanted to race again on Wednesday then i would take Monday off and do an easy spin on Tuesday
Thanks ac282, I appreciate your input here ( 😉 ). Reading between the lines, you'd be saying that I'm worrying about "building" in a condensed Race period, When what I should be doing is forgetting that now because the work is done, and going rest/race over the weeks where I am racing every 3 days (Beastway Wednesdays mixed with the MSG weekends)?
Is achievement more important to you than enjoyment in racing?
Did you pack in road racing because you weren't getting the results you had hoped for or because it was no fun? Or was it no fun because you didn't place very well?
Are you now feeling the same way about XC?
The mention of your clubmate doing well seems quite telling - but he did twice as much training as you? So are you gonna be able to double your training?
Like many here I have a strange fascination with your racing psychodrama threads, but I honestly think you might be better off having a bit of a break from it. Maybe just ride for fun, have some adventures and see if you still feel the lure.
PS. I ride six hours a week and you'd probably beat me in an XC race, if that's any reassurance?
Is achievement more important to you than enjoyment in racing?
No, I do enjoy it, I'm just frustrated about my perceived lack of advancement.
Did you pack in road racing because you weren't getting the results you had hoped for or because it was no fun? Or was it no fun because you didn't place very well?
it became no fun with pieces of broken Carbon flying around my ears. I don't feel the same way about XC no, I enjoy it, and will continue. I crashed Sunday and am quite sore but I'd no intention of stopping nor will I omit tomorrows race.
Like many here I have a strange fascination with your racing psychodrama threads
I need to stop posting clearly, quite an sad reputation I'm building here. 😐
I ride six hours a week and you'd probably beat me in an XC race, if that's any reassurance?
Its only a reassurance beating a fit capable rider - not saying your not but otherwise I may as well enter the Dad's Fun race and crow about smashing a win on here, which would all be wrong.
Oct-Dec = Base
Dec-Mar = Build
Mar-May = Speciality XCO or XCM plan / B races
May-July= Maintain / B races
July-Aug- Maintain/rest/ A race (Bonty 24/12)
That's a whole chunk of maintenance work.
Fully 25% of the year devoted to treading water waiting for your A race to come around.
Ample time there to build towards a peak for a specific XCO event late May, then take a week or 2 chilling out before rebuilding targeting 24/12.
Overall though from what you've said, you seem to me to be on the right track - just keep on working away, re-evaluating once a month or so and the progress will come.
Sorry fifeandy I made a mistake - May-July is TrainerRoads XCM plan leading towards the 24hr, where some races will substitute the intervals so should read "Speciality XCM". eg:
Oct-Dec = Base
Dec-Mar = Build
Mar-May = Speciality XCO / B races
May-July= Speciality XCM / B races
July-Aug- Maintain/rest/ A race (Bonty 24/12)
Also, our club has a Tues/Thurs hills smash ride which if time allows I'll also use as a substitute to a interval session, using the 12km there and 12km back in Z2 deliberately.
Anyway, I think the penny has dropped - I'll look into getting a coach for a season to help shape my plan & motivation, learn when to "Build" and when to "Rest" and not panic over a negative result, then basically live with the tools I have at my disposal, albeit limited more than others perhaps.
Again - thanks for the valuable input, I hope this thread is also useful to others.
Another Kryton 'failing at racing' thread and like a moth to a flame, I feel compelled to respond.
Firstly, you can't buy speed. Ok, you can but its not like TT's where there will be a noticeable difference if you change wheels/frame/skinsuit. Spending £1500 on a hardtail won't make you any quicker than sticking with what you've got. You just want a bit of retail therapy because you're not getting the results you want. £1500 isn't going to buy anything better than what you're already on. You'll buy it, you'll place the same or worse and you'll be even more depressed.
Second - as those who have said on many of your threads before - get yourself a coach. Club runs aren't training. Combine that thought process with doing intervals the day after a race and it tells me you don't really understand what you're doing regarding training. A coach will tell you if you're doing too much. A coach will know that if you're racing a TT, will it help your results in other disciplines? I'd say not, but I'm not a coach. So ask a coach. If you can do a quality interval set the day after a race, you didn't race hard enough. If you did race hard enough, you'd have got no benefit out of the intervals. Recovery rides....there's a reason they're called that...
Third - ride your MTB lots. The best season racing that I ever had, I was riding my race bike pretty much every time I went out. Commuting, trail centers, gentle road rides - even using it on the turbo. By all means run some cheaper wheels, but ride what you race all the time.
Fourth - pick one discipline and stick to it. So far I've seen you post about road racing, crits, XC (what the hell is XCO?) and time trialing. Jack of all trades, master of...You're spreading yourself too thinly and unless you're at the top of your game - Mr Bouttell as an example - you're not going to get the results you want.
Take the £1500, spend what you need to on a coach and work with them to improve your results. Bottrill was apparently winning national TT's on 8 hours a week. A couple of other lads I know do minimal training but race to a high level in crits. They won't go near the longer distance events because they just can't commit to the time needed to train for them.
To summarise
Don't buy a new bike
Get a coach.
Ride your MTB (or whatever discipline you pick) lots
Pick one genre and stick with it. Don't do the others unless it'll benefit your 'A' races.
Another Kryton 'failing at racing' thread
I'm not failing?
XCO is "XC - Olympic" aka short course / 90min XC races. And I only ride TT's as a "power interval / self test" to justify my road bike a bit more.
At least he's giving racing a go, that's hardly failing is it?
Ahem.. might be worth stalking a few pro's etc on facebook/twitter. You can usually get some good tips off em. 😆
Well this thread is hardly full of high 5's and champagne is it!
I don't know you, or what you do apart from what you've posted here. You seem unhappy with your race results. Plenty of people have suggested what you could do to improve them. The overwhelming majority haven't mentioned buying a new bike.
And I only ride TT's as a "power interval / self test" to justify my road bike a bit more.
When did you do this? Not long ago was it? In between weekends where you were racing? Whilst I'm probably coming across as one, I'm not trying to be a dick - its just that your threads always seem to follow a similar path. If you have some disposable income available and you already have a power meter, work with someone to show you how to use it properly. I bet you could improve your results significantly without increasing your hours per week or buying a new bike..
EDIT: And whilst I'm at it, racing isn't a massively cheap thing to do and requires brownie points from the other half for 'time off'. Therefore I understand you wanting to do better. I made a conscious decision after my first couple of races that I'd either commit to some proper training or give up. I can't see the point in not doing well, or more accurately, as well as I personally could do.
Valid point there about picking one discipline and sticking to it. Use the others as a bit of variety and sod the results.
Even for those with unlimited time (pros) trying to be competitive in different disciplines (or even different specialities such as climbing/TTs) takes a good chunk of time to adjust to. Can even be seasonal.
Since i packed in the full time racing, it's either been one, or the other. Or maybe a swap over in the middle of the season, depending on whats in the calendar. i.e. if the national MTB champs is on a course i like, i might focus on early season RRs until maybe May, then switch to MTB in June, until the nationals. Still doing the *other* discipline to keep my eye in, but not driving all over the country looking for the biggest best hardest races. Just mooching down to the local summer evening league instead.
Then take a break until the cross season starts. Rather than doing one then the other every weekend of the year......
Kryton, just to follow up on the general theme here - getting better is about your legs; training harder than you thought possible and for that a GOOD coach really helps.
I did a small xc race recently on my Blue Pig (30lbs of slack, steel hardtail) and it wasn't a complete disaster (I came second :wink:) primarily because I train really, really hard, really really consistently, under the guidance of a really, really good coach.
All my bikes are metal, all cost under £1200, but I spend 10-12hrs a week training and virtually none of it is pleasant.
I generally enjoy my racing because I aim to get something from every race, be it experience or results. One thing I've learnt is that it entirely depends on who turns up as to what position I'll get, so why worry about it? The pleasure comes from improving ones ability and to do that you need to train really hard.
Good luck mate, forget the bikes, tear your legs off 4-5 times a week and bask in the millimetric self improvement that it brings.