[Closed] What would you pay for a 100% British made frame?

Less than I would for a 100% Taiwanese made one. The Taiwanese have a hell of a lot of practice at welding. Id pay more for better tubing though.

Realistically I can't see the frame you state being any less than£1300 that's based on custom prices for a 953 I've seen at about £1600/1700. I just don't see there being a big enough market to allow volume to get the price down any lower.

surely if it was top of the range it wouldn't be a 29er?

I would pay a small premium for made in the UK or Europe given the option, probably around 10%. But as Stoner points out, I wouldn't want to pay that much to be a guinea pig for a new start-up, only after the products have been shown to have the required quality.

I paid £700-800 for an 853 curtis about 7 years ago (plus £100 for paragon dropouts from the states), at the time an 853 inbred was £300, and 853 rockymountain was £600, I think it was good value as at the time what I wanted wasn't available elsewhere. I think now I'd struggle to justify it.

Got my Curtis for £180 from CRC. British steel assembled by British workers. I can't help feeling that someone lost some money along the way.

Realistically if it's off the peg then maybe a £100 premium on a Cotic Soul equivalent?

...which part of Britain ?

No premium at all... But then I don't buy based on where it's made I buy on its technical capabilities and my need for a specific type of frame.

Some months back Steven (Shand) asked a similar question.

Made for an interesting read.

Basically we know you can get frames from the likes of Cotic, Singular, One one, Pipedream, etc that are all designed here and made in the Far East or there are all the small boutique full custom builders where you are paying at least £1000 for a frame. We are looking at frames similar to say Cotic, Singular type or 26 and 29er frames but fully built in the UK and with custom options that the others just can't provide. These would be drop out style, disk/canti, BB type, paint colour, graphics colour, etc.

Proces would be well under £1000

Quality wise they would be equal to the custom builders. However we would not be offering fully sized custom frames.

as letmetalktomark said - a search on here would be good. I know 18bikes said they could get quite low prices for largish orders but if it's still a man in a shed with his files then prices will remain high.

go on then, "quote" me for a

29er
Reynolds 853
EBB shell
vertical drop out/Rohloff dropout on NDS
removeable gear hanger
disk brake mount inside rear triangle
tapered headtube for 120mm sus corrected.
EDIT: Oh and a choice of really good paint.

😀

I think Genesis were saying their 953 race bike was costing considerably more than Ti to work with as even Reynolds were struggling to form the tubes into the shapes they were asking.

So, what would I pay? I wouldn't, 953 is silly money for something I want to be able to treat badly! 4130 gas pipe or 853 (or somewhere inbetween) on the other hand I'd maybe pay Cotic money for (versus On-one money for tiawanese made)? But it would have to be different in some other way than just a "made in Britain" tag. If you turned up with a £500 british made Singular Swift I'd buy it. But only if you went back in time and prevented the £400 tiawanese made one from being built.

What would you be looking for apart from price to buy British over the main established players

Probably something completely bespoke designed and built by someone I can trust.

As a counterpoint I just bought a carbon 29er frame and forks direct from China for £240 + £30 p&p + £40 import fees. It's light, looks good, and rides well. No idea what it's lifespan will be (which also goes for 953 frames) but it would have to be pretty special frame for me too fork out an extra £1000+ for.

Basically we know you can get frames from the likes of Cotic, Singular, One one, Pipedream, etc that are all designed here and made in the Far East or there are all the small boutique full custom builders where you are paying at least £1000 for a frame

Just to clarify has the person making them used any 953 tubing before?

Certainly no more than I paid for any of my On-One frames....they do more than I.m capable of and I can buy better spec parts with the cash I save on an expensive frame.

Its an idea we are kicking around to see what we can offer that adds value but still gives a well priced frame. The key thing is that we would be able to offer lots of customisations by changing a few of the manufacturing procedures and processes.

Stoner, give or take what you ask is all the type of stuff we would be looking to offer

953 tubing was just an example of the types of frame level we would be looking at. We won't be making British made frames out of cheap steel or scaffolding!!

£350 tops

We won't be making British made frames out of cheap steel

Why not?

cheep =/= crap

What if I came to you and said I wanted a stiffer frame than you'r 853 model? Would you (assuming we're already at some practical limit for tube size)
a) overbuild in 853 for the sake of it, costing the cutomer more money for strength they don't need.
b) switch to thicker wall 753/631/525 etc

Didn't cotic try 953 and it was too flexible if you try and save weight over 853?

Bloodhound SSC is IIRC using 'cheep' 531 tubes.

funny this should come up as i asked for a quote from a local framebuilder a month or two ago.....

came back as follows:

Good to hear you know what you are after! I only use 853 for top and down tubes. Its properties are wasted on seat tubes and stays so I use 4130 cro mo which is easy to get hold of and cheaper. I could do an 853 seat tube if you were desperate.
I would shy away from a tapered head tube, it'll add so much cost. 44mm head tube is a nice option if you can live with the look.

The frame would be in the region of £1000 and would include the following:
44mm head tube
853 dzb top and down tubes
columbus seat tube and stays
fillet brazed throughout (no lugs)
custom made dropouts for the bolt through
any number of cable guides exactly where you want them
replaceable mech hangar and a couple of hangers
68mm bb shell
142 rear spacing
31.6mm seatpost size for max dropper compatibility

BTR charge about 650 for a UK built semi-custom frame

29er
Reynolds 853
EBB shell
vertical drop out/Rohloff dropout on NDS
removeable gear hanger
disk brake mount inside rear triangle
tapered headtube for 120mm sus corrected.
EDIT: Oh and a choice of really good paint.

About £1200 - but it'd be powdercoated 'cos I don't do posh like. And I'd try to talk you into sliding dropouts instead of an EBB.

woody74 - I don't think you'll find many people who will pay a "Buy British" premium. If it's a good frame and competitive price-wise then it'll probably do okay, but if you're only offering a few custom choices it might be better to make batches of frames and not do custom at all (or not call it custom).

I have always liked the Whyte Steel frames, look lovely and mine was a blast to ride. Not sure if the whytes were made in the uk.

ben - if I were talking to you about it, youd have to throw some SS couplings in too 🙂

I would pay no more than a Taiwanese frame. Why would I? I pay more for more quality, not some romantic notion of where it's built that makes no difference to the ride.

I currently ride frames made in the USA, UK, Italy and Taiwan. The USA one was a premium but higher quality and unique, the others ride better than anything else.

You talk about not being "custom" but the only option you Don't seem to be offering is size. BB style, dropout type, choice of colour - how is that not "custom"?I can't see how a frame could be made without it's BB until customer specifies. Painting if you have 20 frames sprayed in the same colour it will be one price. If those 20 are all a different colour there will be extra material wastage, inter colour cleaning labour and materials, small batches of paint and possibly primer as opposed to a bulk purchase. Thus adding cost.

I don't want to be negative but I don't see your costing model being very robust. Sorry

Saracen managed to get Enigma to UK build their 'top of the range' steel frames recently didn't they?

I have always liked the Whyte Steel frames, look lovely and mine was a blast to ride. Not sure if the whytes were made in the uk.

Whatever Ricky ( Feathercycles) tells me it'll cost...

Ive been allowed one for my 40th by my wife. 🙂

Mind, thats not for a couple of years, so [s]I[/s] she needs to start saving.

ben - if I were talking to you about it, youd have to throw some SS couplings in too

Doable, but not for that price - not unless you want a unicycle 😉

Pay ?
It's the whole process for me ,so I like the idea of buying from the man in the shed with his files.
There is no doubt that factory made stuff ,is built by robot perfect,I just enjoy the custom part,where you talk to another human and get something that feels a bit special.
I shall be having a chat with a frame builder soon ,and will pay what I need to pay .
Having done off the peg for too long my mutant body deserves something nice 🙂

Would said frames be:-

A) Made in a shed.
B) By a man with a beard.

?

quote]--try 953 and it was too flexible if you try and save weight over 853dunno about that, I had a 953 MTB made to a lighter spec and same geo as an 853 frame around that time, a lovely ride, only a tad more flexible than the (relativly stiff and mid-weight) 853 frame and about a pound lighter, passed CEN. If it was made to pass the same # of cycles as the 853 it would have been a bit heavier, but the 853 was pre-CEN and if anything was over-built. The 953 was still plenty stiff compared to a number of ti frames available at the time (a couple of which I would rate as wet noodles..)
What you seem to get with 953 is wall thicknesses that would be coke-can like in cr-mo at 32-37mm OD and marginal for MTB use in 853; since dia affects stiffness so much more than wall thickness it should make a good MTB. 931 opens up lower-price possibilities and newer 953 manufacturing seems to have solved early cracking issues.

Back to the OP - A Rourke 953 road is £1600 full custom, I'd not risk a 953 mtb unless the builder had a great track record and experience but up to £1000 or so for an 853 frame with the right options, design and back-up would be OK. It'd need to offer options that a stock frame didn't since there's some damn goodbulders in Taiwan making stock frames.

Millhouse, I reckon your potential builder talks much sense )
wwaswas, they were Taiwanese - only the samples were enigma made as an idea trial.

Personally no more than I would pay for a Taiwan frame. Why should I?

If a frame took about 1 week to be built by 1 person, and parts were about 200 pounds for quality tubes etc, then would it be reasonable for the frame to cost about 800? That's about 600 pounds for around a week's work???

With workshop running costs etc, that may be optimistic to generate a wage, then there is tax etc. But if it took less time for an experienced engineer to do, and if it was not full custom, just perhaps tweaks to basic designs and so one, perhaps this would be reasonable???

(Lots of ??? I know, but I am just guessing here).

I know that I would pay a premium of 100-200 over the price of a Soul for it to be UK built with perhaps choice of cable guides and dropouts etc in a 'limited custom' form.

I wouldn't pay a premium. More interested in quality of frame rather than where it is built. British is not a kitemark for quality.

I want my frame brazed by the local frame builder out of 531 in his kitchen and I want it lugged . It should last me 60 years or so

Personally I feel some of the figures above are crazy money. I can appreciate the effort and costs that go into it. But as a buyer weighing up the options I wouldn't consider going near anything over £500. Even that I'd be unlikely to go for (I'm not a big spender by nature) but I could justify the costs should I fall in love with the idea.

Anything higher than that is just expensive art in my eyes. Which is all well and good if you have money to throw away - I'd probably buy one then.

depends who is building it. its not so critical for mtb's but i wouldn't dream of giving my ££££'s to some of the upstarts who are building road frames that are beautifully finished but lack the years of knowhow that the likes of Rourke, Pegoretti and Richard Sachs etc have yet they are charging the same amount or more.
it's not so much the construction more the speccing of tube sets and how to tune the ride and fit.
i don't want the 5th frame you have made i want the 1000th.

I'd probably pay a premium of around 10%. I understand the arguments for the benefits of trade to both parties, but I still think that it has to be better (for me) in the long run if my cash stays in the country. More importantly a bike purchase (for me at least) has never been a purely rational thing. They are more than just a tool to do a job and I like to feel some attachment to them. Being British helps to provide some of that attachment.

However, in practice, I think you need to offer something distinctive and not just a British made version of what's already out there. I like my Brompton, not just because it's British, but because it does what no other bike does and is a design classic. Similarly Orange bikes, or at least the iconic Five (love it or hate it) looks distinctive and again could be called a design classic.

29er
Reynolds 853
EBB shell
vertical drop out/Rohloff dropout on NDS
removeable gear hanger
disk brake mount inside rear triangle
tapered headtube for 120mm sus corrected.
EDIT: Oh and a choice of really good paint.
About £1200 - but it'd be powdercoated 'cos I don't do posh like. And I'd try to talk you into sliding dropouts instead of an EBB.

How much to add a belt drive option, oh and I want it rigid only.
And I've been running an EBB for 6 years and happy to stick with it, works for me and if I'm going to spend a fortune I want it to look nice. 🙂

I would pay a bit more for a local semi custom frame definately provided it was a tidy job from a firm that could give a good after sales service and had some form. Not sure I'd want to go 953 over 853 though. I'd use Niner Sir9 prices (circa £900) as my startig point if 853 - matching it if the brand is a bit no name but with the semi customisation, a little more for something where the brand felt a little "choice", with the subsequent improvement in potential resale price.

We certainly would not just be offering a british made version of what is already on the market we would be offering frames that are different and allow you the consumer to spec what you want.

I also agree that just because it is made in Britain doesn't mean it is good quality. Most stuff made here is either high tech aerospace or railway girders, not much in between. We would be looking at build high quality frames where we could control the quality and finish at source as they are made and not when it is too late after they come out of container ship. Finish would be key like what many of the US builders used to do, little design tweaks that make your bike one of a kind.

What we are looking at in no way detracts from the full custom builders as these guys are real artist. This is just to fill the middle ground where you have a fair idea of what you want and how you like things but cant get it either from the main players or at a reasonable cost. For instance how hard would it have been to get a road bike with disc mounts 12 months ago. By building in the UK we can bring this to market very quickly and by building to order is no one orders then there is no loss to the company of unsold stock.

We would also be looking to offer second to none customer service as we all at some time must have been stung with the poor service that often is shown in the bike market. A bike is for life not just the 12 month warranty.

Thanks everyone for all your comments

All other things being equal I would probably pay up to 20% for a British made frame but beyond that I would have to draw the line. If I were living in France, America or Taiwan then I would feel the same about frames made there. For me it's about supporting local manufacturing wherever local might be to you. If it keeps a few more people employed then I think it's worth supporting.

What's wrong with 531?

What's wrong with 531?

what's right with it?
it's out of date small o/d stovepipe

double post. i hit the button once honest gov.

Hmmm.... in 1997 I paid £550 for a made to measure 853 frame with forks and stem. It was built to my requirements specifically to be able to fit Salmon guards with standard drop calipers. I still use it, about 4,500 miles last year, and it still rides nicely.

Less than one made abroad if I'm honest; as there'd be no shipping & import fees to cover and would probably have some kind of local small business grant/incentive in place 'promoting/funding' British industry

If I was feeling particularly flush I'd maybe pay up to an extra £100 for something like a UK-made Soul but that'd be about it. No chance for the ~£1000 that it would probably actually cost.

That's not to say that I don't buy into the cachet of an artisan, UK-made frame but for me that sort of thing would be a once-in-a-lifetime treat to be cleaned every day with my toothbrush, rather than battered round the woods in the muck. That's still a market that some people might be able to make a living from but I don't think the market for a UK-made Soul/456/Sirius would be very big.

Isn't 953 a pain in the tits to work with and 931 gives 99% of the benefits but none of the hassle making it easier, and hence cheaper?

(May have dreamt that though)

cheap steel or scaffolding!!

I remember a couple of UK frame Designers (Taiwanese build) making 853 and "normal" steel versions of the same frame...in back to back testing there was bugger all difference in ride quality that could be determined in "blind" tests and only a marginal weight saving for significant cost difference. Funnily all the lovely frames they sell now that folk love aren't 853.

I would love a custom uk made frame, but not many uk frame builders can make anything as sexy a groovey cycleworks, or retrotec

[url= http://www.14bikeco.com/frames-forks/frames ]14 bike co[/url] will make a 'custom' track/fixed frame and forks in the UK with plenty of options from £450 up.

I need an aero tubed, filet brazed 853 14r lo pro.

waswasss - the curtis bikes on chainreaction are 4130 cromo tubed tawain models mate. not made in uk. i had one of both. check the sticker as it gives it away, its 4130 which curtis dont hand make from and also it says designed in the uk.

931 gives 99% of the benefits but none of the hassle making it easier, and hence cheaper?

Woody I get where you're coming from here. Actually being made in the UK isn't really the marketing feature you should be focusing on (and it doesn't seem like being made in the UK is any reason to command a premium judging by the responses here).

You're marketing position is more compelling than that; it's the ability to offer a moderate level of choice and customisation.

Colour is a great example; if you manufacture in the far east, you can't ship unpainted frames because they would rust in the container (at least that's what I've been told) so you have to stick to defining the colour choice at the point of manufacture and the mass market doesn't want lots of colour choices to manage.

I'll have mine in metallic BRG with white box panels please.

Same with drop outs. I want a 12mm by 135mm rear please because I want to use one set of wheels across two bikes (they're really nice wheels so why wouldn't I?)

I would also like a 44mm head tube and drilled for a dropper post. I would also like some input on the tube sets but I can live with the geometry and sizing being just like say a Cotic BFe or a Dialled Alpine.

Currently if I want all this I have to go with a full on custom built frame that is going to cost me £1150 or more.

Actually the Cotic Bfe ticks most of my boxes and costs £330.

If you can give me a Bfe or Alpine with those choices i've listed above, I would happily pay £500.

I don't want it fillet brazed though, I would want it TIG welded because I prefer the aesthetics (more modern) and in my mind at least, the results are stronger if you're using 853. Maybe that's a misconception that needs changing in my mind though.

But it sounds so nice when you ping an 853 tube with your fingernail. Admittedly not the sort of thing most people do when riding, but even the sound of cables rattling and pinging off the top tube is nice to hear 🙂

But it sounds so nice when you ping an 853 tube with your fingernail. Admittedly not the sort of thing most people do when riding, but even the sound of cables rattling and pinging off the top tube is nice to hear

Sounds almost exactly the same on a 520 frame though

I'm having a bike built by 18 Bikes, more than happy to pay good money for it,

The service alone is worth the extra. Its down to little things like how do YOU want this... How would YOU like XXXX to be...

I really enjoyed sitting with the guys, discussing what I wanted, what parts where to go on. Its so much more than just an off the peg frameset.

I get updates like this:

[img] [/img]

as the build goes on, dead exciting.

Shep, you need to keep an eye on that. It looks like they are holding it together with tape. Rubbish.

Shep, you need to keep an eye on that. It looks like they are holding it together with tape. Rubbish

Yeah they where quick to sort that, it was a Taiwanese kid they had on work experience. 🙄

853/t45: £800
Tange: £600

If a frame took about 1 week to be built by 1 person, and parts were about 200 pounds for quality tubes etc, then would it be reasonable for the frame to cost about 800? That's about 600 pounds for around a week's work???

ok, lets take the VAT off, now you're down to £500. Assuming you want to have a some holidays, we'll assume you can do 48 bikes. That's gives you 4 weeks off. So you've now got an income of 24K.

I'm guessing powdercoat and decals, so how about £50 including carriage/transport back and forward.
You're now down to £21600.

I assume you'll be selling direct (no margin for a retailer or distributor) so you'll have be shipping bikes out. Factor in £5 for boxes and packing material. and now we're down to £21360

Not sure how they're put together but I'm think you might be looking at something like £15 per frame for consumables based on that volume so, now we're down to £20640.

What's that you say? You want some heat on in the workshop in the winter? Ok then but it'll cost you £200 per year. Oh, and how are people going to know about you? Marketing and advertising you say? Ok, £1K a year sound ok?

Right now we're down to less than £20k and you still need to pay your rent, rates, water, tooling, insurance, testing, warranty, shipping/carriage, accountancy, NI, tax, website .....

And you'll be working on your own 60hrs week.

As someone who knows about this stuff once said, "it's simple but it's not easy."

How much would you be willing to pay for a 100% British made frame or built bike. Not so much a complete custom frame but an off the peg that you can at least can spec drop out type, colour scheme.

The same or less than other similarly specced frames on the market. The same as anything else.

...If a frame took about 1 week to be built by 1 person...

a week?!?

**** me.

i've had a few frames made, i've seen it done in less than a day*.

(*by a welding Samurai master, he charges accordingly, he's worth it)

Personally I think it's a bit of shame that going from the above responses that as a nation we aren't a bit more loyal to home grown. Maybe I'm being harsh - would all those who have said they would not pay extra overtly favour the UK made if price and spec were exactly the same?

Fair market price.

If you want to [s]overcharge[/s] charge more than the importers then you have to do something very special/unique and well thought out - ie completely custom and perfectly built.

But it sounds so nice when you ping an 853 tube with your fingernail. Admittedly not the sort of thing most people do when riding, but even the sound of cables rattling and pinging off the top tube is nice to hear

Sounds almost exactly the same on a 520 frame though

Oh no the sound is completely different I tell you.

Good response Shandcycles.

I would certainly pay a premium, provided that the pre and after care service is good. For example Cy and Paul at Cotic always help and answer queries and not necessarily to gain sales and reach out to customers for their input on new designs. Shandcycles are on here looking to gain insight from customers and be helpful amongst others. I don't see Trek or the like with their vast resources on this forum. For me, this is the difference and if this keeps jobs in the UK, building bikes specifically for UK conditions then that's a brilliant thing. I appreciate we can't all spend vast sums and we should live within our means, so if UK brands could get 0% finance that would also be a major boost.

In the mid 90s I bought a Roberts (genesis). It cost me 500 earth pounds at the time. So in modern money that is probably 1 or 2 million current pounds ...
I bought it on spec, I wasn't prepared to go to a D.O.G.S.B.O.L.O.X - mainly because I though the name was rather trite and trying too hard.

I orderd a 20 inch - in modern day sizing it would have been around 23 inches. It was meant to have a sloping top tube - but it didn't ( oh, that is the 19 inch, didn't you know that?) It wasn't what I expected, but I was too embarassed to complain. I stuck with it for 2 years until the interfaces with the top tube became too much

The paint work was rubbish, it chipped like nail varnish - and the BB was never central - you had to reverse a std shimano BB, just so the rank of the chainring side would clear the frame.

I found the whole Roberts experience a user unfriendly one.

Cotic however, are great. Even though the bikes are made in the East

I couldn't care less where a frame is made if I'm honest.
most of mine are carbon so probably made in the east, other than the Litespeed which is US of A.

Oh, I have a Curtis jump bike but only because my name is Curtis so id have purchased one even if it was from north Korea and made of while bone by a 7 year old in a sweat shop.

If it's a quality frame with good paint people will buy regardless of price and provenance..... All IMHO

trek and specialized dont need to come on here for info, they PAY lots of riders to ride for them and provide them with the info thats actually needed. Id say info on frame design from a team rider who races and rides as a job is slightly more reliable than a forum poster is it not?

I like british made frames, theres something nice knowing that its not mass produced but unfortunately its hard to make them at a price most people would like to pay.
Lets not forget you can usually get a frame that is exceptionally well built in taiwan for £300! most frame builders in the uk (especially start up companies) will pay nearly that for a good tubeset and then they still have to build the thing!

There are large parts of the demise of Raliegh in this thread - ultimately consumers could buy a whole bike cheaper than it cost Raleigh to buy the components, plus they missed the whole group set thing. I do not see logic in paying more for a British frame other than a slight warm fuzzy feeling.

Lets not forget you can usually get a frame that is exceptionally well built in taiwan for £300!

And this is the thing - if you just want a good frame at a good price, a custom frame isn't for you. What you get with a custom frame is a lot more personal control and interaction over the whole process. This costs money, of course, so if cost is your prime concern then it won't work for you, but for many people cost isn't the prime concern.

Unfortunately without some seriously good guidance (ie correcting) most people would probably end up speccing something completely rubbish as a custom frame, the way angles etc are flung round here as the way to make a perfect bike.

but for many people cost isn't the prime concern.

Surely if this is the case there would be alot more bespoke british bike companies?

i wish there was more british builders but the economics just dont work anymore.

As mentioned above, I have voiced my opinion before that there is no reason why someone couldn't build frames in the UK for exactly the same price as Taiwan with everything being equal as far as the customer is concerned (quality, design, finish etc etc). But the issue isn't scale, at least not to start with.

The main reason you can't get a batch of frames built here and be competitive on price is that there is no one offering it. There simply isn't the infrastructure here for it anymore. In Taiwan, if you want a dropout that isn't available then they will make it for you, likewise headtubes, braze ons, bb shells etc etc. We have had huge issues trying to get a tapered headtube swaged over here that would be a simple phone call over there. In order to make frames here you would have to set up doing EVERYTHING yourself. This brings the issue of enough scale to make it worthwhile and also the capital to get it all started.

I believe that as the wages of other countries rise and we still have issues with delivery times we will see people starting to produce more here. The comments about quality are a non issue, if you get the right people in to to the job (as the Taiwanese have done) and train them appropriately then the quality can be as good or better.

I don't think the general public will pay more for just 'made in the uk' but provided the product is as good or better, available faster, reacts faster to the market and is priced competitively then there is no reason that mass produced UK frames wouldn't be a success.

We don't have the workshop capacity or capital to increase these to make it work, trust me, I'd love to but it's not going to happen anytime soon (for us)

Matt

this:

but the economics just dont work anymore.

is changing

mikewsmith - Member
Unfortunately without some seriously good guidance (ie correcting) most people would probably end up speccing something completely rubbish as a custom frame, the way angles etc are flung round here as the way to make a perfect bike.

I suspect I';d go in with a printout of the Soul Geometry chart, and get as far as the price, and think "why am I bothering?"