[Closed] what steel hardtail for a 140mm fork used for aggressive trail riding.

I've got a blue pig and do everything you describe it's great. Get some thinner pedals if bb height really bothers you.

my 456 does all that but faster!!
Would probably be racing DH on it this year if there was still a catagory in Pearce

On-One 456
Ragley Blue Pig
Cotic BFE
Pipedream Sirius

All these steel frames take 140mm forks, there was a bike test out of these bikes in recent mag a few months back and the Pipedream was the winner.

www.pipedreamcycles.com

Cotic BFe..

@wors
i'm saying the bb is to heigh on the blue pig.
i would like it 15mm lower.

456 is another option but summer session or standard. and i think bb is the same blue pig.
ive raced downhill on the rocky ridge a couple of times.

@wors
i'm saying the bb is to heigh on the blue pig.
i would like it 15mm lower.

then I would catch my bashguard on the top step of mmmbop.

on-one 456 BB is higher for the same length fork.

For the riding you describe the Soul sounds perfect if you can stretch to it, the BFe would also work but it's a bit stiffer on the rear (larger diameter seat tube and stays) as its designed to take more abuse.
Should have my new Soul next week, built a 2nd hand mk1 up and liked it so much i've treated myself to a new one 🙂

That pipedream Sirius looks lovely.

thats the 456 ruled out then. the jury is still out on the blue pig as i have only taken it on a local xc ride.might have to borrow it to see how it fares on some technical riding.maybe a softer spring in my fox van rl forks to give me more sag may help.

The run tubeless and run low pressures.

i'm afraid i know what tyre pressure works for me on different bikes and changing that to affect bb height would not be somthing i would do, nor would i use smaller tyres.

can anyone tell me what the cotics bb height is in relation to the to the blue pig.

Sanderson Blitz might be another contender. If you trawl my posts you'll find some pics I posted for a chap. He'd tried a Ti 456 & a Soul (I think), but really rated the Blitz.

Orange P7?

dialled alpine or prince albert.
bb slightly lower but with all long travel hardtails you are going to have a slightly higher bb if they can be used with 140-160 forks.

DMR Trailstar LT

dont see why the cant go lower like my rocky ridge with 140mm forks. i NEVER hit pedals or bash guard and it is obviosly better for cornering. just look at DH bikes.they have low bbs nowdays and they have 200mm travel front and rear!

can anyone tell me what the cotics bb height

Just checked my BFe and with 150mm forks fitted I measured the BB height at 32cm. The Cotic site says 12.25", which is 31.1cm, with a sagged 130mm fork.

@epicsteve
just to check, did you measure to the centre of the bb.
also what tyres do you have on

trailstar too steep head angle for me.

You've really noticed the extra comfort and traction from a cheap steel frame?

I have a rocky ridge they are smashing why not bigger tyres run slightly softer ie rubber queen 30 psi ? saves money and faff......... more time to ride !

without a doubt.there is a very obvious differance. i did a loop with the aluminium frame then the same loop on the blue pig straight after.
everyone i know is buy steel over aly ht frames now. apart from the one who can afford ti that is.

i'm afraid i stick to my beloved, corner carving high rollers.i have a garage full of tyres but they are best.

the rocky ridge is a sweet bike, but due to breaking my left arm, my left wrist, shattering my right elbow and detaching the ligerments to the elbow last year ,i could use the extra dampening of the steel this year 😀

@epicsteve
just to check, did you measure to the centre of the bb.

No - unsagged to the centre of the BB it's a smidge over 34cm. Can't really measure it sagged though. My Soul has 140mm Pikes on and unsagged and at max length the BB was also about 34cm, and with them dialed down it was just under 33cm. Not sure if any of that is of any use at all!

also what tyres do you have on

It's got a Purgatory 2.2" on the front and a Storm 2.0" on the back. The Soul has 2.3" Eskars.

@epicsteve
cheers ,sounds like they may be a smidge higher the blue pig then.

Evil Sovereign

i know im fussy but i dont like the look of frames with raised and reinforced seat tubes.plus its expensive. it could have 3 blue pigs 😀

BFe, I've got one with 140mm forks, its stable and planted but livley with the jumps and the turning. Love it.

Prince Albert for the win. Mine's genuinely amazing. And it only cost a few notes shy of £300 all in, using a Saracen Zen as a donor bike...

Currently riding a BFe. Used to ride a Trailstar LT. Both are really good frames, the BFe is a bit longer on the tt/wheelbase and has a slightly slacker HA, so it feels more stable at speed. The Trailstar wasn't exactly bad though, I just fancied a change.

Evil sovereign or chromag samurai

I have two steel bikes - a Prince Albert and an On One Inbred - neither have this amazing dampening effect that you talk of.

Also, the number of long travel hardtails with low BB height is seriously limited.

fwiw, the Trailstar has the lowest bb of all the frames I looked at, 11.8". Probably why it feels quite stable even though it has short chainstays and a relatively steep HA of 71 degrees (don't know if this is sagged or unsagged though).

Also the BFe feels a lot flexier/softer on the back end, and doesn't feel as quick to accelerate.

I got a sovereign with Van36's on the front,
[IMG] [/IMG]
and a gay handbag.....

I think Transition Trans Am's are a bit lower than the Blue Pig.
But they're steeper head angle and quite a bit heavier too.
And more expensive.

I've got a 456 Carbon and a TransAM. 456 with gears and TransAM is SS and will be Alfine for next winter. I got the TransAM because I didn't want two bikes the same. Not ridden the TransAM yet, but it looks fantastic, better than a Sovereign and the others mentioned above, which is an important factor.

I don't know about more recent Marin hardtails, but in my experience the aluminium ones are/were some of the flexiest bikes I've ridden and not in a good way. I'd be surprised if a blue pig was more 'comfy' though it's almost definitely better handling.

Get thicker pedals. Maybe high-heeled shoes.

Just measured up my Bfe, centre BB from ground 34 cm with 150mm forks and 2.3 sized tyres (Maxxis HR 2.35 front, 2.25 Adv rear), so with 20% sagged forks would have about a 15mm reduction in BB height

I'm with bullheart. Definitely consider trying a PA. Mine is ridiculously good! It's easily tough enough for any xc riding in the uk. The steering is lively enough to keep things interesting on normal trails, but feels very solid when flying down big peak district descents. Oh and it's one of the easiest bikes to bunny-hop that I've ever ridden.

...and best of all they're cheap!

My DMR trailstar 2 is running marzocchi 55's and has head angle of 66 degrees unsaged, ride it for everything and it does it all well. Recommend a dialled prince Albert too

i'd just like to say to the people who say the doubt that the blue pig is more comfortable in terms of vibration dampening compared to a marin rocky ridge or even a cove stiffee or chameleon or mmmbop, the pig is obviously more comfortable due to the properties of the material, the thickness of the chain and seat stays and the diameter of the seat post and the fact that i have rode both and compared.
i would be interested to hear why someone would disagree. why else would any frame be made with steel otherwise being as steel is heaveir??

i've just swaped my 456 for a sanderson life, its night and day, the sanderson definatly flexes more over rouch bits, I think once you get to 120mm+ bikes the frames have to be built pretty stiff regardless of material, certainly the 456 is pretty stiff and the sanderson is notably twangy.

Then again The minutes are much less stiff than the menja's or Z1's on the 456 and the sanderson is singlespeed so has less weight out back so probably feels twangy regardless of the frame.

That Pipdream sirius Ti looks absolutely stunning.

Mrbump, like I said, it depends on the era of the Marin. They used to use tubes not much bigger in section than steel, therefore were very flexy. Mmmbobs and chameleons are more conventional aluminium frames.

but those marins are not the long travel aggro hardtails that we are talking about.

fair enough 🙂

I've got an mmmbop. The ride is quite harsh but the geometry is ace. I think the blue pig has the same geometry. And cheep as chips too.

the sanderson blitz looks intresting. as anyone got any info or opinions on these, and maybe bb height 😕

In answer to your original post: http://www.cotic.co.uk/geek/

Hope this helps, oh and buy a soul, the Bfe is a stiffer at the rear (ooer) so not as forgiving

why else would any frame be made with steel otherwise being as steel is heaveir??

Because it is cheaper?

Much cheaper, though how that actually affects the end price is more than a bit complicated!

why else would any frame be made with steel otherwise being as steel is heavier??

Or because of some marketing BS.

Prince Albert.

'cos steel is real man 😆

In all honesty Steel doesn't actually flex/absorb bumps any than a good Alu HT IMHO. Wheels and Tyres make way more difference.

Saying that I currently have 2 steel HT's and they're both ace 😆

i'd better stick with my aly frame then rather then go for a economy,uncomfortable steel frame 😉

mmmbop...lighter and stiffer
blue pig...heavier more complient
same manufacturer, same price, same geometry
i have freinds who have both and i have rode both.

Genesis Alpitude - 853 steel too. 12.2 inch BB with Revs at 140mm and High Rollers on. Don't be tempted to be all XC and get the 18.5 inch if you normally ride an 18 inch bike, they're built with a low top tube. Only problem for you is that they have a wee seat tube brace thingy. Cotics will defo be too high on the BB for you.

http://www.genesisbikes.co.uk/bikes/frames/alpitude/geometry

the alpitude does sound good and my LBS has one hanging up in stock.
and i will definatly be going compact and chuckable! but your spot on with my only niggle with that frame, may have to be overlooked.

i would be interested to hear why someone would disagree. why else would any frame be made with steel otherwise being as steel is heaveir??

Because people like steel frames? I've ridden both the bikes you're on about and I'd stick some proper fat tyres on the Marin first if you like it otherwise - particularly if you're using 2.35 High Rollers, which are actually pretty small, more like a 2.1 from a lot of other brand - a 2.25 Ardent is significantly bigger for a start. Or have someone copy the Rocky Ridge geometry but in ti... which is what I did 😉

i find that bigger single ply tyres tend roll on the rim a little giving a less accurate feel and high rollers are my no. 1 choice. would be tempted to try the ardents but would most likely buy them, keep em on for a few weeks ,then get the rollers back on like all the other tyres ive tried.

Stick with aluminium and this ticks the boxes:

http://www.progressive-bikes.co.uk/hx1_frames.html

people talk about steel frames like they expect to not feel anything from the back end, like a full sus. blasting down rocky trails flat out is when the dampening effect is most noticeable, but then you have to remember that it is still a hardtail. catches you out sometimes.

all i know is that im well chuffed with my blue pig and will definitely be buying steel again. the extra weight doesn't build up to too heavy a bike.

I've just swapped out the kit from a Ti456 to a Sanderson Blitz mainly because of the On One's bb height issue, but also because of the cockpit length and the slight insecurity I always felt going down challenging stuff (did everything else A1). I can't help thinking that the Ti456 was not a mirror image of the steel version, there was something different, beyond the lasck of tyre clearance, that was not an improvement. I think the Ti456 needed a 160 fork to balance it out which I think would have hindered climbing and I wasn't wanting to go there anyway.

I'm well pleased with the Sanderson. If you search on here you will find a muddled review I did on it and you will find some piccies kindly posted for me by a fella called Paul.
My reservations about the Sanderson were weight (The frame was 5.8lbs and I've built it to 29lbs while still retaining stronger weightier parts, and I'm getting used to that.) and speed (but having serviced the rear hub and gotten rid of draggy old bearings and serviced the rear brake and freed up draggy pistons, I'm no longer bitching about that either) and the cable routing (I've put in a full cable run to the rear which has sorted that) and I don't like the bolt on mech hanger (but I can see why they did it).
It ticks every other box I wanted ticked though. It goes up and down better than a 456 and I find it more balanced with a (510 axle/crown, is it?) 140 fork, and it is more forgiving on the rear end.

My experiences with a Pace 303 suggest that the 325.5 would be good but I doubt you will get 2.35 tyres on that.....

..... and the one ride I had on a Transition Transam suggest that was going to be worth putting up with a 30lbs build weight. It was instantly engaging.....but look at the headset (integrated campag) and the rear dropouts (you've got to take them out if you get a puncture) before you buy...if you were minded I think it would be worth it.

just checked the marin site. the new rocky ridge bb height is 309.8mm with 140mm forks. quite alot less than the 330/340mm that seem to be on steel frames on offer.

Genesis Alpitudes have a low BB height I think (look at a picture)

As do Cotics

Dialled seem quite high

I have had 2 PA's, the MKII and MKIII - the latter really is brilliant.

However I wanted less weight.

Bought Genesis Alpitude 16.5" frame - is possibly my most fav. bike owned to date (have had loads over yrs).
I considered the Evil Sovereign alongside this, but was put off by weight - despite loving how the Evil rides (friend I ride with has one).

Can't say enough good things about the Alpitude - perfect 4x bike at chicksands, yet still can knock out 10-20mile Xc ride in comfort. Feels loads more "springey" than the PA did - friend has MKIII PA and riding back to back can tell real difference in comfort.
Aplitude is quite slack angled, really nimble, paint finish is poor )chips easily) and seat post size is frustrating size 30.0mm.
Otherwise is outstanding in all regards.
Run it with 1x10 gearing and Float 32 140mm fork, weight 27lbs near enough exactly with mainly XTR finishing kit.

Also use it at local skate park and is able to manage ramp duties quite happily - has super short wheel base and low BB height.

i prefer steel because it stands up to abuse better.

and i don't mean jumps/drops/bad-landings abuse,

i mean cable-rub / chain-slap / some-muppet-(me)-cross-threading-a-BB / some-muppet-(me)-dropping-the-bike-on-rocks-and-stuff / getting-strapped-onto-a-bike-rack-rubbing-up-against-my-mates-pedals / etc abuse.

your opinion may very, and that's cool, but i'm gratefull i can buy frames that are a bit more idiot-resistant, even if they do weigh a bit more.

I am selling a barely-used Bfe frame, because I got a bit carried away buying bikes before Xmas.

Email in profile if interested.

@jpcapel
the alpitude is one of my main contenders now.
what is the bb centre height with your 140mm unsagged forks.

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Chromag Aperture.

that looks sweet and being chromag...expensive!!

Not as bad as you'd think. Its a copy of the samurai made in the far east. Retails at £485. Great looking frame though and knowing where chromag do their testing, I bet it rides very well indeed. I've never met a person who's regretted buying anything Chromag!

JP, I don't think the Alptitude is lighter than a Prince Albert. According to Bike Radar, the Alptitude weighs 2.45kg/5.4lbs.

pipedream have a new hardcore hardtail coming out soon,might be worth a look.

mr bump
13.1/4" from floor to centre of BB axle.
I run quite a lot of sag on my floats 140mm travel, preferring a softer set up, think this suits the frame.

Mike - you could well be right, the hold it in each hand test made the alpitude "feel" lighter, but I am not a detail man to weigh bikes - geetee1972 is a local neighbour and does my geek work on weights !

geetee has just acquired an alpine and it is stonking.

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The only correct answer to the original quaestion.